
Thunder Nerds 278 â đ Building a Community with Kent C. Dodds
In this episode, we get to speak with software engineer educator, Kent C. Dodds. We discuss community, giving back, and future technology.
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Episode Links
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/kentcdodds/
- Github: https://github.com/kentcdodds/
- YouTube: http://www.Kcd.im/YouTube
- Website: https://kentcdodds.com/
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kentcdodds/
- How I am so productive: https://kentcdodds.com/blog/how-i-am-so-productive
- The bot for the KCD discord community: https://github.com/kentcdodds/kcd-discord-bot
- KCD Office Hours: https://kentcdodds.com/office-hours/
- KCD Learning Clubs: https://kentcdodds.com/clubs/
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- Egghead: https://egghead.io
- Hosts:
- Frederick Weiss: https://twitter.com/frederickweissâ
- Brian Hinton: https://twitter.com/mrbrianhinton
Transcript
Brian Hinton: [00:00:00] welcome. Iâm Brian Hinton
[00:00:28] Frederick Weiss: [00:00:28] and Iâm Frederick Philip Von Weiss. And thank you so much for consuming the Thunder Nerds, a conversation with the people behind the technology, That love what they doâŠ
[00:00:41] Brian Hinton: [00:00:41] and do tech good.
[00:00:43] Frederick Weiss: [00:00:43] Ah, thanks to everyone for watching the show again. And if you have questions, please ask them and we will answer them in the order they are received.
[00:00:54] And also, if you can please go to YouTubes, go to YouTube.com/ThunderNerds. Subscribe, hit the notification bell to get seven years of good luck, BrianâŠ
[00:01:06] Brian Hinton: [00:01:06] Hinton, seven years. Yeah, Iâd like to thank Auth0 as this season sponsor, they make it easy for developers to build a custom secure and standards-based unified login by providing authentication and authorization as a service to try it out, go to Auth0.com.
[00:01:25]Also check out them out on both YouTube and Twitch under a username. Auth0. They have some great developer resources and streams, and of course, avocado labs. They as an online destination that their developer app gets run, where they organize some great meetup events. Again, thank you all and check out Auth0.com today.
[00:01:47] Frederick Weiss: [00:01:47] Yes. Thank you so much Auth0, and Brian. Thank you. So letâs go ahead and get to our guests without any other further dues ado. We have software engineer, educator, Kent C. Dodds, Kent. Welcome to the show. Welcome.
[00:02:05] Kent C. Dodds: [00:02:05] Thank you. Iâm super happy to be here. Weâre super
[00:02:07] Frederick Weiss: [00:02:07] happy to have you can. How are things going for you?
[00:02:10] How you been. whatâs up. Whatâs new for you, Kent.
[00:02:13] Kent C. Dodds: [00:02:13] Oh whatâs new. Itâs actually mostly Iâm working behind the scenes on some stuff. Thereâs Iâve been, I write a blog post every week and I do like my regular stuff. I have three-minute podcasts and stuff that I keep up with, but nothing big and exciting.
[00:02:27]Yet Iâm working behind the scenes on that sort of thing. My biggest exciting thing was that thick reacting and that took a lot out of me. So itâs yeah, just kinda chilling, hanging out with the family a lot.
[00:02:39] Frederick Weiss: [00:02:39] Nice. And just to say hello to everybody thatâs seen. Hi, thanks to everybody for watching.
[00:02:44] And apparently you also really love the Thundercats reference. Yes, I do.
[00:02:52] Kent C. Dodds: [00:02:52] I didnât grow up with under cats or anything, but my roommate in college, just thought they were the best. And yeah, I definitely caught that reference.
[00:03:01] Brian Hinton: [00:03:01] Yeah. I always loved that. Love thunder cats. And whatâs the other one?
[00:03:04] Thatâs silver Hawks or silver Hawks. Yeah.
[00:03:11] Frederick Weiss: [00:03:11] Yeah, that enemy, the weird squid guy. Super cool. Love it. Speaking of weird squid people, letâs talk about whatâs going on with currently the COVID. How was that affected you? And obviously, we have some corner turning that we may be approaching soon with vaccines being distributed to everyone.
[00:03:32] Whatâs how has this first, how has this affected you and your professional life? And howâs the outcome going forward, look to you.
[00:03:40] Kent C. Dodds: [00:03:40] Yeah. So 2020 was the year of like pain and suffering and 2021 is the year of hope. And I was working remotely and everything already. Lots of my workshops were remote.
[00:03:52] And I donât think I was impacted as much by COVID as lots of people. But I certainly was, my kids started doing school at home and so my wife had to take care of them and I needed to take care of the younger kids who werenât in school. And so yeah, it was definitely tricky, but, I wasnât hit as hard as some people were, theyâre single parents or they both of the parents need to work and so you need to figure out different things.
[00:04:14] So I was really lucky in that way that it didnât impact me as much as some of my friends and family. Yeah, like as far as this year, Iâm totally excited about vaccines becoming available. Iâd say Iâm cautiously optimistic about the future here.
[00:04:31] Frederick Weiss: [00:04:31] Itâs good to be cautious. Who knows what happens?
[00:04:35]I think there was some stuff written about the vaccine in South Africa that with the blood clots, et cetera, things like that. But it looks like weâre doing pretty good with the three vaccines that we do have available in the States. So letâs all cross our fingers and toes and hopefully, that will get distributed soon.
[00:04:54] Kent C. Dodds: [00:04:54] Yeah, absolutely. I, itâs really hard to know what to believe, right? Because you hear stuff like that. And youâre like, itâs how many cases are there? What, whoâs financing this report, right? It all comes down to whereâs the money coming from. Thatâs where the incentives are as far as business is concerned.
[00:05:09]And so you just, you donât know what to trust online because you hear such a wide variety of reports on different things.
[00:05:20] Frederick Weiss: [00:05:20] So you talked about that you have kids, you have three children if Iâm correct where your children. Wow. Okay. Let me, I ABC you everywhere, but let me, and then Iâm sure you alphabet get this all the time, but where do you find the time? Where, how do you do what you do? You put out a lot of content.
[00:05:43] You have four children. I have one child and I canât find the time to do what you do.
[00:05:49] Brian Hinton: [00:05:49] Could you explain the clone in the closet behind him?
[00:05:53] Frederick Weiss: [00:05:53] Do you have a clone? Could you
[00:05:54] Kent C. Dodds: [00:05:54] confirm that? No. Yeah, I like first I wanna Iâll just say that having one child is a lot of work. So itâs I sometimes I feel weird when people compare it.
[00:06:05] Cause I am child number 11 of 12 in my family. Wow. Thatâs impressive. Yeah. So Iâm like fours, like whatever, but I donât know it. My wife is a full-time mom and she has been since we started having kids. And so of course that helps an enormous amount. And and. I dunno I focus my effort on like, when Iâm working and when Iâm with my family, Iâm with my family and I feel like I do a pretty okay job.
[00:06:32] And I do have a blog post called how Iâm so productive that I wrote back when I did have a full-time job. Cause now Iâm a full-time educator. I work for myself. I do whatever I want. And whatever I want happens to be very public. And so you see all of the things that I do. But when I was at PayPal, a lot of people were like, how do you do all this stuff and have a full-time job?
[00:06:50]And so I have that blog post to people can go take a look at, cause it is maybe a little more relatable to people than I am right now. Being self-employed.
[00:07:00] Frederick Weiss: [00:07:00] I like we have one of the comments here. I donât have children and I canât do what Kenny did. So maybe we can take it away from the whole thing about you having four children and talk about how you actually do what you do.
[00:07:17] Where did you get the inspiration to be an educator? Why are you and in this industry where does the passion come from and weâll start.
[00:07:27] Kent C. Dodds: [00:07:27] Yeah, sure. Iâve always been a teacher. I am a member of the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints. And when I like all the way back to when I was a kid, we were spoken church.
[00:07:37] It was just like an expected thing that you did every few months or so. And so I getting up in front of people was something that I became comfortable doing at a very young age. And it was just a very natural thing for me when I started learning how to write software to get up and teach what Iâm learning.
[00:07:54]I volunteered to be a tutor and help people in our classes. And I hosted a mini-workshop that I put together for my classmates. It just was something that I enjoyed and Iâve come to learn also that itâs a great way to solidify what youâre trying to learn. And so itâs a great mechanism for.
[00:08:11]For learning and getting really good at whatever it is youâre trying to get good at.
[00:08:16] Frederick Weiss: [00:08:16] Yeah. The learn, teach
[00:08:17] Kent C. Dodds: [00:08:17] code kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I spend a lot of time. Thinking about it as Iâm learning a new thing. I donât just gloss over the things where like I hacked something together and then, Oh, it works.
[00:08:29] Letâs move on. I, thatâs not what I do. And this is why Iâm really bad at like hack night projects and stuff. Cause I can never finish. I have to understand exactly whatâs going on and why things are working or not working. And itâs the teacher side of me because Iâm always thinking if somebody were to come to a workshop that I was giving teaching about this, they would ask me why and I wouldnât be able to answer them and I need to be able to answer them.
[00:08:51]So yeah, I, I donât know. Thatâs where things come in. And when I started getting money for this, started like paying my mortgage and stuff, then it was like, Oh wow. I can take this thing that I enjoy on the side. And I can build up this passive income stream and pay my mortgage and.
[00:09:07] And thatâs that was pretty cool.
[00:09:12] Frederick Weiss: [00:09:12] Let me think of two that you have this I donât see this very often, but I see that you have this transparency page on your website that communicates exactly. If somebody is going to contribute what that means, where the money goes, where did that idea come from? I love that idea. I think more people should have something along those lines.
[00:09:31] Do you mind elaborating on where the Phil Collins, the Genesis came from?
[00:09:35] Kent C. Dodds: [00:09:35] Yeah, sure. Yeah, so it was a few weeks ago, actually, this page is pretty new. And clubhouse was getting really popular and people were excited about it. And I was just concerned because I had no idea where they made their money.
[00:09:48] And and Iâve over the last few years have just started to realize that. Like money is where businesses get their incentives. And so if you understand where the moneyâs coming from, then you have a much clearer picture of the angle that theyâre coming from. So for example, if thereâs a news article that is very like talking very antagonistically about renewable energy and then you find out that itâs funded by big oil then.
[00:10:12] Oh, okay. That makes sense. Maybe I should research this a little deeper and see where their stats are coming from. So yeah, the money you got to follow the money to get a sense of where whether theyâre going to sell the userâs data in the future and stuff. So anyway, they, lots of companies donât tell you where their money comes from.
[00:10:30]Or like we know where their money comes from. And itâs the reason that lots of the incentives are screwed up like Twitter, Facebook and Google are really great examples of this. And I, as a co-op house was getting popular, I was just tweeting about how I think, Hey Iâm just a little bit concerned about where like whether clubhouse is going to do right by its users when it starts to actually need to make money.
[00:10:49] And and I said, I think every company should create a page that says where their money comes from. And if they donât know yet, like theyâre just getting started, then they should say make it stand on. Whether theyâre ever going to sell their userâs data and stuff like that. So some of the things they will do and they wonât do things.
[00:11:07] And then I realized, wait for a second, I have a company. So I was like, Oh, I guess I should do that myself. And so thatâs where the transparency page came from. And actually, I have removed some sources of income because they didnât align well with my mission. For example, I took YouTube ads off of my YouTube channel.
[00:11:25] Because my mission is not pushed any further forward by showing people ads before my videos. Thatâs not where Iâm making my money, right? Like there, there are plenty of YouTube creators. Theyâre making money on YouTube. Thatâs their thing. My YouTube stuff is three-hour live streams of me just like coding and stuff, or I have weekly office hours and theyâre recordings of that.
[00:11:46] So that, I guess itâs useful, but itâs, thatâs not where Iâm going to get my money. Thatâs where I go to say, Hey, like Iâm creating content. You can trust me. Iâm a creator. And if you want to more of this and higher quality and whatever, then you can go to courses and stuff.
[00:11:59]So thatâs any way the transparency page helped me focus a little bit more on my primary mission as a company which has been a really positive thing. Iâm really glad about this transparent transparency page, and I hope that we get on more companies doing this sort of thing.
[00:12:16] Brian Hinton: [00:12:16] Yeah, definitely. I love that. It should just be something thatâs like privacy. Like we are, weâre so concerned about privacy. But like the same thing we should be concerned about, what governments, get their money in and even in some sense where they spend their money.
[00:12:29]Yeah. I love that. Going back to what you said earlier about how youâd like to dive deep into what youâre working on. I can always tell him, Oh, heâs working on something. Cause all the types of your posts right now, Iâm like, Heâs totally going to be writing something or updating something Epic react or AR heâs doing something TypeScript right now.
[00:12:47] So Iâm just curious, are you what are you working on now with TypeScript? Cause I assume youâre about to do
[00:12:52] Kent C. Dodds: [00:12:52] something. Yeah. So that actually goes back to the productivity question where people say, wow, he just does so much stuff. And I guess so, but I think we all do a lot of stuff.
[00:13:01] Iâm just extremely public about it. There are very few things that I do not share with the world of what Iâm doing from a business standpoint. And yeah, like you see me talking about remix and TypeScript is because Iâm using those tools right now. And itâs, theyâre just like constantly on my mind.
[00:13:17] And so yes, I am working on a TypeScript thing right now. Iâm in the, Iâve been using TypeScript for three years, but Iâve been not on more on the abstraction side which is different kind of TypeScript than building application side. And I want to get into teaching people how to write TypeScript to build applications.
[00:13:34] And Iâve been doing a lot of that as a practice to prepare for a series of workshops or maybe just one or two workshops on TypeScript. And the big reason for that is because. Iâm going to revamp tap testing, javascript.com and Epic react dev to be a hundred percent TypeScript. And I know a lot of people are like, Oh no, donât do that.
[00:13:54]I shouldnât say a lot, but if you are that person, youâre in a very small niche of the jobs, there are most people are way into TypeScript. So anyway, there are a lot of people who, or a fair amount of people who donât want to do TypeScript or theyâre new to TypeScript. And so I want to have this TypeScript course that I can say, Hey, go take that.
[00:14:11] If you havenât had much experience or you want to just freshen up and then and then you can go through the rest of this stuff. So yes, there is a TypeScript thing coming, a lot of TypeScript things coming your way from me.
[00:14:22]Brian Hinton: [00:14:22] Yeah. Itâs I just love seeing how much you share it. I w I wish more were more people were as open because youâve basically built actually, letâs just get into that the kind of topic that I want to.
[00:14:34] Talk about this episode as a community and building a community. So your openness, I think, has been like a big catalyst for that. And Iâve noticed that youâre literally everywhere can like, like nine
[00:14:46] Kent C. Dodds: [00:14:46] clubhouse. I donât have an iOS device. So
[00:14:50] Brian Hinton: [00:14:50] maybe next week, the other day. Yeah. The other day we use Crossy and via at work.
[00:14:55]And I was like, I just happened to go the NPM page to look something up. I was like what the heck? I feel like at this, I think I have far to look at our packages. At least all of them might have your lines, your name somewhere in there. But anyway how did we talk about, you get into teaching, but how did the community aspect really start were like your discord, for instance, I know has, 10,000 plus active users where did that all begin?
[00:15:23] Kent C. Dodds: [00:15:23] Yeah. I, when I created testing javascript.com there wasnât really a great place for learners to learn together and or to talk with each other about what theyâre learning or support each other. And so I ended up fielding a lot of questions on Twitter and realized that, Hey, maybe if I create a space for people to.
[00:15:43] And talk with each other. Theyâll be able to help each other. And cause I, I can only scale so much. This is why I created the online courses because when I do it as workshops I canât scale very well. Itâs very expensive. And so itâs not very accessible and so I can make it a recorded workshop, but now it doesnât take my time.
[00:16:00] And so I can drastically reduce the price. But you lose that side of being able to learn with other people and have access to the instructor. So I make up with the access to the instructor by doing my office hours every week and people, anybody can just come and ask me questions. But then I also have the community where people can go and talk and with each other and help each other out.
[00:16:21]So I started with actually spectrum spread spectrum. chat and that worked out okay, ish. But as I was ramping up Epic react, I just thought, I feel like. Weâre missing something here. And I knew that react to flax and moved over to discord. Theyâve been there for a while. I wasnât really involved, but I decided, Iâm just going to try it.
[00:16:39] And I created discord in an hour made the images and whatever. And set up the roles and stuff. But I think it was before I opened it up or no, it was, yeah, it was after I really wanted to make sure that people who joined the discord would read the code of conduct.
[00:16:56] So that was a very important thing to me. If Iâm going to be in charge of this, I am going to make sure that itâs a safe space for people. And so I created a bot that would not let you in until you read the code of conduct and Like itâs okay to be able to enforce a code of conduct by banning people from the server and stuff.
[00:17:14]But I also wanted to get email addresses and stuff as well. Not only for managing the code of conduct and stuff but also this is my community, Iâm offering this service. And I think that itâs okay for me to ask for your email address so I can let you know when Iâm doing stuff. And so the bot is responsible for just onboarding, asking their name and getting their email, making sure that they read the code of conduct.
[00:17:36] In fact, it says, do you accept the code of conduct here it is. And they of course say yes. And then it asks, okay. So because you read the code of conduct, you must know what email address we send violation notices to, and Oh shoot, I guess I need to open the code of conduct. And yeah, I, they, I forced them to open the code of conduct at least And and they go through that.
[00:17:56]So because of that friction that Iâve added to join the community, itâs a very high-quality community of people who are actually active. We donât have any drive-bys and youâd be surprised, the number of people who joined the discord and then realized that they created a new account instead of logging into their existing one.
[00:18:14] And so we have none of those because people realize that, and then they sign in to their right account and then they join. And so itâs actually very high quality. I did that. Oh, that happened to you.
[00:18:27] Brian Hinton: [00:18:27] Oh yeah. I totally accidentally created an account
[00:18:29] Kent C. Dodds: [00:18:29] and I had to fix that. I did the same thing in another community.
[00:18:33] And so now thereâs this nebulous account just hanging out in some community somewhere. We donât have any of those. And so that, that is like the, when we say we have 10,000 members, thatâs a high activity actual people who participate in the community. So itâs a really awesome place.
[00:18:47] I, I love it. There.
[00:18:48] Brian Hinton: [00:18:48] Yeah. And you even then your open-source the bot too, so that, yeah. Yeah.
[00:18:53] Kent C. Dodds: [00:18:53] I know of at least two other communities that are using the bot. They like forked in, did their own thing with it. Yeah.
[00:19:01] Brian Hinton: [00:19:01] Yeah. And piling onto the whole being efficient with your time, as the learning groups too.
[00:19:06] Thatâs an incredible concept. Could you tell us a little bit about the learning group? Yeah.
[00:19:11] Kent C. Dodds: [00:19:11] So when I did, I was creating Epic reacts I, I was going to go and just record all the workshops. Cause Iâd given them so many times I was ready, to just pull the trigger and go, but I decided I just want to do one more time.
[00:19:27] Weâll just see, make sure that everything flows nicely and everything. And so I scheduled eight workshops and I opened it up where people could just buy a ticket to all of them. And so then over the course of two months, theyâd go through all of these workshops. Thatâs very fast-paced. People donât normally go through Epic react that fast.
[00:19:43]But yeah, so what I found in that process was that the people who, and there were like 30 people who went through all of it It went really well for them being able to get to know the other people who are learning. And I won, I didnât want to lose that by going to record. And on top of that, when I do live, I also do breakout rooms where youâre in a group of three or four other developers working through the exercises together.
[00:20:08] And I didnât want to lose that either. And so I wanted to have some way to say, Hey, basically Epic react is supposed to be all of the good parts of workshops with the none of the bad parts and all the good parts of a recorded course with none of those bad parts. So thatâs like the best of both worlds.
[00:20:22]And the problem with going recorded is now you lose access to the instructor and you lose access to other learners. And so learning clubs are supposed to give you access to other people to learn and bounce ideas off of. And then my office hours give people access to me to ask questions in a live setting.
[00:20:40]And so what a learning coach is basically my bot facilitates getting a group of people who want to go through the material together and itâs, it doesnât have to be any of my material too. Like we have weâve had people going through like some rushed course and a VIM course and a bunch of others.
[00:20:56]But the idea is you have this curriculum you want to go through there, thereâs a specific schedule. And then you use the bot to let everybody know that this is the thing thatâs happening. People sign up on your form that you create. And then you create a little discord DM, or lots of people just make an entirely different server and go through the curriculum together.
[00:21:15]Itâs been really successful. Weâve had I dunno, maybe two dozen learning clubs that people have started for various. Most of them are my content, but yeah, for various things and thereâs always like the really excited everybody starts off really excited at the beginning.
[00:21:28] And then it kind of tapers off in there maybe four or five people laugh. But even if itâs just to that is a success because of the accountability that you get by going through the curriculum together I canât tell you how many books and courses that Iâve bought that I havenât gone through at all, because I just have no accountability.
[00:21:45]And having a group of people that I feel accountable to make me more likely to go through it and Iâll just get more out of it. So itâs been really successful. Thatâs community
[00:21:54] Frederick Weiss: [00:21:54] with you. If you have a bunch of people together and everybodyâs learning together, and youâre talking about the same things, like whether thatâs a conference room where we used to go to or a book club, or what have you a mastermind, like when you have that kind of pseudo accountability where itâs, we all want to learn that same thing, you just get so much out of it.
[00:22:14] Kent C. Dodds: [00:22:14] Absolutely. Yep. Yeah, itâs been fun.
[00:22:18] Brian Hinton: [00:22:18] One thing, one thing Iâm curious about as someone whoâs an educator, what, how do you decide what to, what youâre going to actually create? Like whatâs your like, How do you get the vibe of the feel of the room, so to speak? Yeah, I think
[00:22:35] Frederick Weiss: [00:22:35] I know the answer to this.
[00:22:36]Kent C. Dodds: [00:22:36] A lot of people will do like a Twitter poll. What do you want me to teach and stuff? Iâve done that in the past. Iâve found that Iâm much more successful if I just teach whatever Iâm hyped about and excited about at the moment. There, thereâs always a, unless I decide to go into some like very niche topic of something thereâs always going to be a market for whatever Iâm excited about.
[00:22:54] And and Iâm always way better equipped to teach the things that Iâm excited about. This is why I havenât actually. And taking the time to create a TypeScript course until now. Because I havenât been super psyched about TypeScript for the years that Iâve been using it. And so now I am using it a lot and Iâm getting excited about it.
[00:23:13] And then itâs B just become naturally interesting to me. And so thatâs why thatâs the next thing for me. Yeah, I think that itâs going to wish we
[00:23:21] Frederick Weiss: [00:23:21] got a, we got a comment about that. Yeah,
[00:23:24]Kent C. Dodds: [00:23:24] Yeah. It definitely is. I like those sorts of comments. Theyâre really validating to me cause like Iâm in this box, Iâm by myself all day.
[00:23:34]And I, of course, have to be a community. Yeah. They keep you there. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And so when I hear people outside of this box that says that what Iâve created has been helpful to them. It is just really validating. So I appreciate comments like that. Thank you.
[00:23:50] Brian Hinton: [00:23:50] Yeah Iâve definitely loved and share the beginner react one way.
[00:23:54] Iâve used it. A lot of people have joined my team. Some of them are newer to react and that the one on ed keg, the beginnerâs guide to react. Itâs excellent because it actually goes into something that I feel like a lot of reacting, documentation and lessons just donât that react are JavaScript.
[00:24:10] JavaScript is reacted and I really. I appreciate that you did that. High five to you.
[00:24:16] Kent C. Dodds: [00:24:16] Yeah. Thatâs my approach for teaching things in general, if I can help it and actually react testing library came out of that method of teaching. So what I like to do is if we have time for it, I want to take the subject that weâre trying to learn an abstraction and remove the abstraction for a second and do what the abstraction is doing in a small way.
[00:24:36] So what youâre talking about, Brian, there is at the very first lesson of Epic reacts, we donât actually even touch, react or sorry, actually. Yeah. Epic reacts to but beginnerâs guide to react. We donât touch react. We just pull up an index HTML file and we write some JavaScript to create a domino and stuff.
[00:24:50]And I feel like people are able to draw a line around abstractions a lot better if they understand at least at a basic level, what that abstraction is responsible for. So when I was getting into teaching testing libraries and enzyme was the thing at the time I wanted to say, okay, so letâs take react Dom, and weâll render this to this dev that we have to create ourselves and all of that.
[00:25:11]But the jump from what you could do with just react on dot render. And enzyme was just enormous because there were so many utilities that enzyme offers and then you have to choose between mountain render and shallow and all of those things. And that bothered me a little bit. And so I was looking at the exercise where letâs just do it with react.
[00:25:28]And I said, you know what? That test is actually not that bad. And I, compared that to the test I had to write with enzyme is like, what? Like there are so many concepts in here I donât want to even not only I donât want to have to deal with, but there are lots of other things that I want to tell them.
[00:25:41] I was going to make a list of here donât do these things with the enzyme. Cause it just enabled me to do a bit, a lot about things. So I was looking at that and I thought, you know what. I could probably just write a little utility around this react on dot render thing, and then just go with, run with that.
[00:25:55] And I did this was like two weeks before I was giving a workshop at Trulia to 60 people. I decided to create a new library and teach them to use my brand new library. Itâs Iâm glad that worked out. I was like, Peter, I went to front-end masters and did the same thing and thatâs a that was recorded and everything.
[00:26:13] Yeah. Iâm really glad that reacts.
[00:26:17] Brian Hinton: [00:26:17] Thatâs great. Thatâs a little last minute.
[00:26:20] Kent C. Dodds: [00:26:20] Yeah. Yeah. I was convinced that the enzyme was harmful. And it was now the there were some things, if you used it in the right way, it was fine. The problem was that it was just so easy to use it in the wrong way and the documentation.
[00:26:33] And like comments and get a hub, all encourage people to, to write implementation detail focus test and that just was not great. So yeah, react testing library is now the most popular and recommended testing library. So that ended up being pretty successful.
[00:26:52] Brian Hinton: [00:26:52] Nice job. Getting back to the community too.
[00:26:54] One thing Iâm curious about do you have LA what are your next goals with it? What do you, what are the next steps for the community that youâve built as it continues to grow?
[00:27:04] Kent C. Dodds: [00:27:04] Yeah. A few months ago these arenât the next steps, but these are recent steps. I realized that the community was growing beyond a KCD.
[00:27:11] Like it, wasnât just hereâs the place that Iâm talking about, Kenton his stuff. And I had my office hours on there. I would do live streams on there. And there were a couple of people who were making a name for themselves, within the KCD community. And I thought like I should just figure out a way to enable these people to serve the community in the same way that I do.
[00:27:31] just because itâs the KCD to the community doesnât mean Iâm the only one who can post office hours and stuff. And in the spirit of clump house, I created this thing called meetups which is a command that you give to the bot to schedule a meetup. You can list yourself as one of the people that people can follow.
[00:27:47] And when you schedule a meetup, all your followers will get a notification that you are streaming. And so this could be like anything itâs basically what clubhouse is except you also have video and the screen-sharing capabilities and stuff, but you can talk about baking or you can talk about politics, or you could talk about coding, does it like whatever it goes.
[00:28:05] And so now we have people who. Are hosting their own meetups and theyâre doing their own office hours and stuff like that. So thatâs what Iâve been thinking about for the community is how can I make this just bigger than myself? Because I think that my mission is to make the world a better place through quality software.
[00:28:20] And that there are a lot of people who can help me in that mission. I donât have to do all of that by myself. And there are people who are willing and able to do that within the community. So thatâs where Iâm thinking about what the, what Iâm thinking about with the community is how to enable other people to push that mission forward.
[00:28:37]Frederick Weiss: [00:28:37] Let me ask you then if thatâs what youâre talking about, where, what does that look like? Hypothetically, like best case scenario with three years, five years down the road what does that look like?
[00:28:47] Kent C. Dodds: [00:28:47] Yeah, itâs a little bit tricky to measure make the world better, Iâm just mean
[00:28:52] Frederick Weiss: [00:28:52] hypothetically, like if you had your choice.
[00:28:55] Kent C. Dodds: [00:28:55] Yeah. So Iâm mostly interested in Like lots of the developers that I am teaching, theyâre working for a company thatâs trying to do something useful in the world. At least, hopefully, I canât really control that, but thatâs, I have to go with that assumption. Otherwise, I would do nothing. So I assume that people are working for companies or building companies themselves that are making the world better.
[00:29:16] And if I can help them to level up their skills, to be able to push their companyâs mission forward, then thatâs success in my mind to take it even a step further, more on a personal level. If I can help people get a pay raise or a promotion or a job in the first place that also helps their corner of the world be better for them.
[00:29:36] And thatâs also like something that Iâm thinking about pretty often. And I. Really enjoy it when I hear people telling you I got a job because Epic reacts that this happens every week or so somebody else says something like that. And that is really validating to me because thatâs right on point with my company.
[00:29:54] Brian Hinton: [00:29:54] What do you say on the flipping on the opposite end all being validated. Fantastic. But what happens when you reach the, what do you do when you reach those low points where itâs harder for you to get in front of the computer and record something or, work at all?
[00:30:08]What are you, what are some tips and tricks for people?
[00:30:11] Kent C. Dodds: [00:30:11] Yeah. So I have the benefit of being committed to not having deadlines. I donât make deadlines for myself. I donât tell people when somethingâs going to be out. I do have a partner company in particular egghead.io. They are my primary partner for most of the things that I do.
[00:30:27] And we have plans that we make together. And then when weâre getting closer to something happening, then we schedule a date and sometimes weâll share it since actually, we wonât. But I donât really schedule something to be completed until I get really close to that thing being done. And because of that, I can say, Hey, this is the plan.
[00:30:45] This is the next thing that Iâm working on, but I donât have to have anything delivered or whatever until like ever honestly. And so that kind of makes it works. And of course, this is nice just because my business has been financially successful and thereâs a recurring revenue stream, a passive income stream.
[00:31:02]That means that when I have those slumps, I can just go hang out with my kids and I donât have to tell my boss or anything that Iâm not working today. Unfortunately, that means thatâs not exactly relatable to everybody. I know some of you, I go to the job and you canât just tell your boss that Iâm not feeling it today.
[00:31:16] Iâm doing it
[00:31:17] Brian Hinton: [00:31:17] now.
[00:31:20] Kent C. Dodds: [00:31:20] Yeah. So I have had those experiences before and sometimes itâs nice to switch gears and do something else for a little bit. And most employers are totally like they have plenty of work for you to do you just say, Hey, listen, Iâm just really struggling with this a little bit.
[00:31:35] Can I help Jane out with her thing or whatever just to change the pace a little bit. Yeah. And that Iâve done that in the past and thatâs worked out pretty well for me.
[00:31:45] Brian Hinton: [00:31:45] So when will the discord bot actually start teaching or replace you.
[00:31:52] Frederick Weiss: [00:31:52] Thatâs a great question. Iâd imagine thatâs in the future soon.
[00:31:56] Kent C. Dodds: [00:31:56] You know what? You probably youâll know when thatâs going to happen, because Iâll be tweeting about AI a lot and Iâll be like, Iâll make an AI course or something. And by the time thatâs done, nobody will need to take it because AI will take over the world. And so nobody needs to coat.
[00:32:11] Frederick Weiss: [00:32:11] We just got to find out where Sarah Khan heirs and make sure sheâs safe.
[00:32:14]Speaking of your courses, I just wanted to bring up this cause Iâve, Iâm sure things like this that you read all the time and for audio listeners thanks for creating react testing library. Iâm used to ignoring the test before and I hate them. I hate. Writing them now things become better.
[00:32:34] Thanks for your testing article. Like how thatâs some great feedback. So how does that make you feel and how does that help you become motivated to do more of this?
[00:32:43] Kent C. Dodds: [00:32:43] It makes me feel great. It, it is super validating. Thank you for saying that to him. D Iâm not sure if I said your name, sorry. MITIE Iâm not sure. Sorry. But yeah, it is validating, and at this point react testing library has pretty much won the hearts of most people. There are plenty of people who are still like mocking things a lot and they want to use shallow and stuff. And I just okay, thatâs if thatâs what you want to do, but yeah, lots of people are really happy with that.
[00:33:07]Iâve written a lot of articles about testing. In fact, Iâm just going to check right now on my blog for the number of articles that I have with testing. Tag.
[00:33:18] Brian Hinton: [00:33:18] Oh, I was going to guess. Sorry.
[00:33:20] Kent C. Dodds: [00:33:20] Sorry. Yeah, weâve got Iâve written a lot of articles on testing, and yeah I donât know how I became the testing guy, to be honest.
[00:33:28]I know-how now, like I can tell you this story, but it was never a plan of mine to be the testing guy. It just happened because I started writing tests. So this is the way that happened is I got into open source. I was like writing a library and I thought it was cool and whatever, but every time I made a change, Iâd have to open up this little demo that I had.
[00:33:48] And I test everything manually. I was like, what pain is that? And so I, this guy at work taught me how to use mocha. And so I started using MOCA to test my stuff automated. And I was like, wow, this is amazing. I like, I have the thousand little Kentâs running around, making sure everything works.
[00:34:02]And so I just started testing everything. And when you do something enough, You start developing opinions because of your experience. And just because I naturally share the things that I learned and just share what I think is important that I share my opinions. I started tweeting about it and writing articles about it.
[00:34:18] And and then I became the testing guy. I made a course about it. And yeah itâs really nice to hear that my articles and my open-source software have helped people out because thatâs not the only reason that I create this stuff. The big reason is that I want to remember it.
[00:34:33] I want to learn it. I want to really understand it. Butâs a big reason that I create this stuff is to, to make the world a better place. And Iâm hoping that this stuff is going to help people be more productive. And yeah, when I hear stuff like that, it makes me feel validated
[00:34:46] Brian Hinton: [00:34:46] and anything in testing, JavaScript that you look back now and youâre like, Ooh, shouldâve done that different.
[00:34:53] Kent C. Dodds: [00:34:53] Oh yeah. Th this sort of thing happens all the time. No, thereâs not a lot of stuff in testing JavaScript, but eh, all the time when I have material my opinions change, the things or new technology comes up. And thatâs the case for testing.
[00:35:05] JavaScript is thereâs this new, relatively new software called MSW that allows you to intercept requests. And so instead of having to mock modules and stuff like that, you can actually just MSW will intercept any HTTP requests that are made. Itâs amazing. And when I created the, so I created a testing JavaScript in 2018, I think.
[00:35:26]And then in 2019 I did a relaunch I, or V2, I just revamped everything. And then a few months after is when MSW was created. And in 2022, I was totally focused on Epic reactions, but I really wanted to tell people about testing JavaScript about this cool thing, MSW. And so I just recorded a couple of videos to say, Hey everybody Iâm planning on updating testing JavaScript eventually, but I donât want you to have to wait until I get this stuff.
[00:35:51] So I recorded a couple of videos to show you a couple of cool additional things. And I replaced a few things to make some changes. So yeah, things do evolve over time. It, most of the time itâs coming out of not out of Hey, weâre going to do things fundamentally different from the way weâve done it.
[00:36:06]I havenât made huge changes like that. But itâs Hey, thereâs this cool new tool that means that you donât have to do all this weird stuff. Do
[00:36:13] Brian Hinton: [00:36:13] you, do you ever feel I know I personally do. I imagine you do too. Oh, overwhelmed by. All that actually is available.
[00:36:23] Kent C. Dodds: [00:36:23] Yeah. I dunno, like actually, yeah, so people will email me all the time and say, Hey, look at this cool tool that I built.
[00:36:30] Or most of the time itâs something that they built that has been really helpful for me. And lots of the time itâs like something very specific for a specific use case that I donât know anything about, or I donât I know about, but I donât really have use cases for it or whatever.
[00:36:44] And so those are pretty easy. I just say, Hey, Iâm not your target audience. And thanks anyway. But yeah, thereâs just, thereâs a huge, I get emails and tweets all the time from people saying, Hey, check this thing out. And I just sorry, I canât check out everything that people tell me about.
[00:36:58] So I, you just choose which things youâre going to spend your time doing and then move forward.
[00:37:03]Frederick Weiss: [00:37:03] Thereâs only so much time in a day, and thereâs so much technology that we could explore. And thatâs why thereâs. An array of people that, excuse the pun, an array of people that we could depend on and ask them their opinions as well.
[00:37:17]I wanted to also ask you about the podcast. Howâs that going? Or are you still continuing that?
[00:37:23] Kent C. Dodds: [00:37:23] Yeah, so I am Eventually Iâm going to start work on season four. I think I have three seasons. And yeah, Iâm definitely planning on making that a thing again. Or, so the reason that I did the seasonal release thing where I just released the whole thing, Iâll all at once kind of Netflix binge style.
[00:37:40]Yeah. So the reason that I do that is Iâve done a lot of podcasts. I did angular air. I did JavaScript to air. Iâve got this three-minute podcast. I do. And there was a react 30 that I did with Michael Jackson and Ryan Florence for, I was at, it was like 15 episodes so it of shorter.
[00:37:54]But yeah, and then I have a podcast on Epic react and where Iâm the guest in a podcast where I have guests. And so Iâve done all this podcasting thing a lot. And one thing that Iâve learned is that. It can become a chore. It just takes a lot of work. Iâm sure you two both know, takes way more work than I ever expected.
[00:38:13]Yeah. And especially when youâre doing I did the live thing like you are and when you want to have a consistent time every week, we do it there. This time finding guests that can just happen to make it at that time is very difficult. And yeah, it was, it just became too much and thatâs why Java script error kind of fizzled out.
[00:38:30]And so when I decided, Hey, I want to do this podcast. You think I want to have guests. But I donât want to. Have to go through like finding guests all the time and stuff. So Iâll just do a bunch of episodes, record them all in rapid succession. Iâll do two or three a week and then weâll put them all together and just ship them all at once.
[00:38:47] And then thereâs no expectation on consistency from me. Nobody people will ask me, but theyâre not expecting something every single week. And so that just reduces the amount of I donât know, the effort now Iâm doing a daily podcast, but itâs three minutes long. It takes me like four minutes total to do the whole
[00:39:02] Frederick Weiss: [00:39:02] thing.
[00:39:02]Could you imagine if you had a wait like a week for a new Wanda vision to come out like I just want to sit down, watch the whole thing and about one day and thatâs it. Yeah, I guess
[00:39:13] Brian Hinton: [00:39:13] I just want you to know Kent. I am expecting podcasts from you. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:39:16] Kent C. Dodds: [00:39:16] And I do get that quite a bit.
[00:39:18] People are like when on season four coming out and thatâs fine. I donât feel too pressured by that. But season four is going to happen. I have a couple of people in mind that Iâm probably going to invite on. But yeah, itâs, I donât know. I havenât started I, it doesnât actually take a ton of work.
[00:39:34] Egghead helps me with that a lot. Youâre not
[00:39:37] Brian Hinton: [00:39:37] doing anything right? Yeah.
[00:39:41] Kent C. Dodds: [00:39:41] Busy was fun. The reason I started podcasting in the first place was I was driving in my car, listening to a podcast and they would talk about something and I would start talking. I would like to respond. Iâd be like, no, thatâs not how it works.
[00:39:52] Or Iâd say, Oh yeah. And then this they respond back. No, they never luckily they never did. Otherwise, you were like
[00:39:59] Frederick Weiss: [00:39:59] talking to the TV.
[00:40:01] Kent C. Dodds: [00:40:01] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so I was like, you know what, Iâm just going to start doing this myself. I need to, I want to participate in these conversations. And so thatâs why I started podcasting.
[00:40:09] And then I got to talk with amazing people. I started with angular air and I started with the angular team. That was awesome. When I started JavaScript air, I started with Brendan IQ as my first guest. Like I was able to meet some really awesome people. And the whole thing was just a big excuse for me to be able to talk with some interesting people about interesting things.
[00:40:26]So itâs not really a chore to me. But it does take time. And yeah. Thatâs why I just decided to letâs do seasonal and then I can just do it whenever I want. Yeah.
[00:40:35] Brian Hinton: [00:40:35] Yeah. Same with us. We really enjoy just connecting with people. I know my big thing is I always want to humanize people because people look at you canât get people to look at you and theyâre like, itâs Kent.
[00:40:47] And Iâm like Kent is four kids. He just ate the lasagna last night,
[00:40:51] Frederick Weiss: [00:40:51] yeah. Our big thing is really just to get to know people like Brian said, people put people on these weird pedestals, et cetera, but what actually drives you to do these things? And yeah itâs great talking to you and getting some of that.
[00:41:05] And like you said, getting the opportunities to talk to some of the more interesting people, which is presently something that weâre all participating in.
[00:41:15] Kent C. Dodds: [00:41:15] Yeah. Itâs fun.
[00:41:17] Brian Hinton: [00:41:17] Yeah. Frederick, do you have any further questions or would you like to move to the lightning round? I
[00:41:23] Frederick Weiss: [00:41:23] think the lightning rod round Brian I would like to do that.
[00:41:27] Kent C. Dodds: [00:41:27] I am comfortable. Iâll be honest. When I saw this, I was like, Oh no, Iâm really bad at lightning. I am. I just ramble a lot. I just talk a lot, so yeah. Yeah.
[00:41:37] Frederick Weiss: [00:41:37] Ready to ramble. Ramble time lightning round rambling.
[00:41:42] Brian Hinton: [00:41:42] Ramble time. Yeah. Yeah. So Iâll ask the question first and Frederick, can we just go back and forth?
[00:41:47]My first question would be where do you mind not waiting?
[00:41:52] Kent C. Dodds: [00:41:52] Where do I mind not waiting? Yeah. Oh, itâs like, where do I mind? Just like hanging out or yeah, youâre in line somewhere where youâre just like, Iâm cool with it. Yeah. I donât know. I hate waiting at work. Thereâs nowhere that I donât mind not waiting.
[00:42:11] Frederick Weiss: [00:42:11] Thatâs a fine answer. Kent, let me ask you a serious question. What do you find to be your most favorite quality about yourself?
[00:42:20] Kent C. Dodds: [00:42:20] Ooh, this is a sort of question that I would ask my kids, as for they can feel good about themselves. I feel like we donât love ourselves enough. So yeah, thatâs a great question.
[00:42:28]I am a very driven person. Iâm, I get really committed to things and I like that about myself. Good.
[00:42:35] Brian Hinton: [00:42:35] Nice. Okay. Imagine this youâre in the circus. Can you, would you rather be the person with their head in the lionâs mouth or shot out of a cannon
[00:42:46] Kent C. Dodds: [00:42:46] shout out of a cannon for sure. Okay. That sounds awesome.
[00:42:49] That would be so fun.
[00:42:52] Frederick Weiss: [00:42:52] Kent, if you can not be around a computer ever again for some hypothetical circumstance, what would you do professionally?
[00:43:02] Kent C. Dodds: [00:43:02] I would write a book a fantasy novel. Thatâs thatâd be really hard to do without a computer though.
[00:43:09] Frederick Weiss: [00:43:09] It is possible. There are typewriters. Yup.
[00:43:12] Kent C. Dodds: [00:43:12] Yup. Thatâs what I would do.
[00:43:15] Brian Hinton: [00:43:15] Okay. You go on a trip. You, your plane crashes, a Castaway style with Wilson and everything. You hit your head, you wake up somehow you made it back to land. You only have one technical skill that you still have. What is that technical skill?
[00:43:30]Kent C. Dodds: [00:43:30] Shoot I with all of the skills that I have right now, I would still die.
[00:43:37] So it doesnât make a difference. What I choose.
[00:43:39] Brian Hinton: [00:43:39] Oh, you made it back to the end.
[00:43:41] Kent C. Dodds: [00:43:41] Oh, so like I survived. Okay. One technical skill.
[00:43:45]Typing.
[00:43:48] Frederick Weiss: [00:43:48] There you go. That is technical skill. Okay. Kent, imagine this, you come home. Nobodyâs there it is late. Itâs like one, two 30 in the morning. Itâs raining. Pouring you open the door, you see a
[00:44:05] Brian Hinton: [00:44:05] ghost. What do you do?
[00:44:07]Kent C. Dodds: [00:44:07] Invite them in, no, theyâre in the house. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Theyâre going to come in anyway.
[00:44:12] So may as well act friendly.
[00:44:17] Frederick Weiss: [00:44:17] Would you like some tea come on in
[00:44:20] Brian Hinton: [00:44:20] what chores do you absolutely hate doing?
[00:44:23]Kent C. Dodds: [00:44:23] I queen toilets like cleaning the bathroom. I hit that.
[00:44:28] Frederick Weiss: [00:44:28] Nice. All right, Kent, what are you listening to for fun right now? Are you listening to any certain kind of a podcast or something
[00:44:37] Kent C. Dodds: [00:44:37] such as that? Yes, I am always listening to a podcast.
[00:44:40]One thing that people know about me is I listened at three X thatâs how fast? So hereâs here, Iâm listening right now too soft skills engineering. And
[00:44:49] Frederick Weiss: [00:44:49] this is,
[00:44:55] Kent C. Dodds: [00:44:55] I didnât do a lot of podcasts at very fast speeds. And soft-skills engineering is a favorite. Iâve got I listened to a lot of Tesla stuff. So Iâve got tastes, Tesla, daily and ride the lightning, the Tesla, and the official podcast. I love dark net diaries. I listened to a lot of books, so I like Brandon Sanderson.
[00:45:13] Iâm a big fan. And yeah, like some self-help books and stuff like that. Iâm a listener of syntax and planet money. Yeah, so I listen to podcasts a lot. Writing excuses is writing podcasts. I listen to. And then I, when Iâm coding, I just, it doesnât matter what it is and it can have lyrics or not.
[00:45:30] It doesnât matter. I donât even realize it. Sometimes it can sometimes Iâll realize that there itâs really dirty or something. Youâre like, Oh, shoot, kind of skip that because I just did not pay attention. But I do need something when Iâm coding.
[00:45:45] Frederick Weiss: [00:45:45] Gotcha. Yeah, itâs funny. You mentioned that I heard just the other day Dave ripper on a shop talk.
[00:45:51] He was talking about how all he does with podcasts is listen to them at two X, et cetera. And I could imagine going back to listening to them at just regular speed. I think a lot of us do that. We just rush through, I want to get the info.
[00:46:05] Kent C. Dodds: [00:46:05] I know like our brains are really capable. People who are blind are able to listen to it like six X or more.
[00:46:12]So lots of that is because of the parts of their brain that are processing vision or have been retrained and stuff. But yeah, our brains are amazing. And I worked up over years to get to three acts and, but it means that I have to be very focused. I either Iâm just sitting there listening to it or Iâm doing dishes or driving or something that like, I can just put on autopilot sometimes, literally.
[00:46:34]And and so I can listen. Otherwise, Iâll miss stuff. And Iâve just not
[00:46:37] Frederick Weiss: [00:46:37] cleaning the toilet. Yeah.
[00:46:40] Brian Hinton: [00:46:40] Iâve definitely watched your videos too at two X cause I like move faster cats.
[00:46:45] Kent C. Dodds: [00:46:45] Yeah, thatâs impressive. Cause Eric had added the ability to slow down videos because of me
[00:46:54] canât but slower.
[00:46:59] I talk fast. I donât like wasting peopleâs time and I donât like my time being wasted either.
[00:47:03] Brian Hinton: [00:47:03] Would you rather be able to copy and paste to real-life or undo?
[00:47:09] Kent C. Dodds: [00:47:09] Oh, I find myself trying to do command F in real life, like finding a lot undo for sure. Itâs actually pretty easy. I make mistakes all the time.
[00:47:20] Kent,
[00:47:20] Frederick Weiss: [00:47:20] what advice would you give somebody that is just getting into JavaScript development? What would be the first place you would point them to.
[00:47:31] Kent C. Dodds: [00:47:31] Sorry, Iâm thinking about that last one. Iâm going to change my answer to compensate. I was just thinking if you undo every mistake you make like you never really learned anything.
[00:47:42]And and sometimes you donât realize that the thing you did was a mistake until later. So yeah I wouldnât want to mess with time.
[00:47:48] Brian Hinton: [00:47:48] So wait, youâre undoing your answer. Now
[00:47:52] Frederick Weiss: [00:47:52] you realize the thick layer of irony here.
[00:47:58] Kent C. Dodds: [00:47:58] I canât do that. I guess I just gave that ability away. Yeah. Okay. So you wanted advice for someone whoâs just getting into programming?
[00:48:06] Frederick Weiss: [00:48:06] Yes, exactly. Somebodyâs just getting into programming. Where do you point them to say theyâre they want, they have aspirations to learn JavaScript. What is the first place you point them to? You know what you should do here and start looking, reading, consuming.
[00:48:20] Kent C. Dodds: [00:48:20] Yeah. That oneâs actually really tough.
[00:48:22]I have made a living building or creating material for experienced developers. I donât teach brand-new developers. A whole lot people need, I have assumptions that you have knowledge. And because I havenât created anything, I also havenât gone through anything like the mind mechanism for learning this stuff was just playing around with things a lot.
[00:48:43]And so I donât know if I can recommend that path. If thereâs maybe something out there thatâs better like a more guided journey. But like I hear great things about West boss is JavaScript. 30 is good, but I think that kind of expects that you have some experience a little bit friend and masterâs, I think has some intro stuff.
[00:48:59] Thatâd probably be a good place to start.
[00:49:02] Frederick Weiss: [00:49:02] Oh yeah. Weâll add that in the show notes. Thatâs a great one.
[00:49:04]Brian Hinton: [00:49:04] What do you miss most about being a kid?
[00:49:11] Kent C. Dodds: [00:49:11] When I was in fifth grade, I was homeschooled. And I would wake up at five in the morning and my mom would have a checklist, actually, something like this. This is what I do now. And she would just, every, all of my homework assignments for the day, I would get them all done by nine. And then I have the whole day to myself to do whatever I wanted.
[00:49:28]I miss that. Now I have that, but like now I have a wife and four kids. I need to look after it when I was a kid. It was just like, I do whatever I want and nobody relies on me. No, I canât. Your momâs awesome. Yeah, that was awesome. I really loved that year. It was actually a transformative year.
[00:49:45] Thatâs like where I got my drive and my productivity, just like I have a checklist, I just get it done. And then I can do what I want.
[00:49:54] Frederick Weiss: [00:49:54] Love that. Brian, do you have anything else?
[00:49:56]Brian Hinton: [00:49:56] Iâve. I have two more. I just want to know, like in the 11, so youâre 12
[00:50:00] Kent C. Dodds: [00:50:00] Iâm number 11 of 12 or
[00:50:02] Brian Hinton: [00:50:02] 11 and 12.
[00:50:03] Yeah. I want to know where youâre. I was curious where youâre at in that. And why was the JavaScript developer sad? Oh, God.
[00:50:10]Kent C. Dodds: [00:50:10] Because then defined wasnât a function,
[00:50:12] Brian Hinton: [00:50:12] because he didnât know how to express himself.
[00:50:14] Frederick Weiss: [00:50:14] Brianâs joke of the week,
[00:50:18] Kent C. Dodds: [00:50:18] those punny jokes, people will find that every five or six videos, I have a break and itâs just a broken video. Itâs two minutes long of me saying, Hey, letâs do, letâs just take a quick break. And I show them I can have dad joked.com. And we just look at random dad jokes like three or four of those.
[00:50:36]Cody, the koala bear also joins us and Oh my God, thatâs
[00:50:39] Brian Hinton: [00:50:39] awesome.
[00:50:43] Frederick Weiss: [00:50:43] Kent. Weâre at the end of the show. And I just want to make sure that weâre telling people where to go to find more information about you, obviously your website, which is Kent C Dodds, two DS, and the s.com. Youâre also on YouTubes. You provided a URL, C D I M slash YouTube. Do you have the Twitters, you were at Kent C Dodds on the Twitters and get hub slash Kent C Dodds.
[00:51:10] I imagine everywhere that anyone would book, if I go to the Kent C Dodds, they would discover you thatâs
[00:51:19] Kent C. Dodds: [00:51:19] the case. I donât think there are any exceptions so far.
[00:51:23] Frederick Weiss: [00:51:23] Yeah. Great. And the last thing I love to ask the guest is, do you have any final words of advice for our audience?
[00:51:33]Kent C. Dodds: [00:51:33] So my father-in-law likes to say ask, Hey Kent, is it more important to be a hard worker or to be smart?
[00:51:40] And he says itâs more important to be a hard worker and is more important to be a hard worker or to be nice. And itâs more important to be nice. And it doesnât matter how smart you are or how hard I work or you are, if youâre not nice then youâre missing out on a lot that the world has to offer and the world is missing out on a lot that you have to offer as well.
[00:51:58]So that would be my parting words of advice. Be a little introspective and think about how you can make yourself a little nicer.
[00:52:07] Brian Hinton: [00:52:07] I like that. I love that. Yeah. Thank you so much for spending your evening with us time. I always say itâs the most valuable thing we have and free to spend a little with us.
[00:52:17] Thatâs great. Thank you
[00:52:18] Kent C. Dodds: [00:52:18] so much. Thank you. I appreciate you giving me some of your time and the audience as well.
[00:52:23] Frederick Weiss: [00:52:23] Yeah. Thank you so much, Ken. And thanks to everybody again for watching the show. Really appreciate it. Weâll catch you next time. Thank you so much, Kent. Take care. All.
