In this episode, Javier Navarro, a former fashion designer, shares how his fashion experience adds a unique style to his visuals.

Sponsored by Concepts

The Concepts Sketchnote Workshop video — a unique, FREE, hands-on workshop video where I show you how I use the Concepts app to create sketchnotes on an iPad Pro with an Apple Pencil.

In this one-hour, eighteen-minute video, I cover:

• The Infinite Canvas as a sketchnoting power feature
• How vectors give you complete control of brushes and sizing as you create sketchnotes and
• How vector elements let you size and repurpose your drawings for ultimate flexibility.

The workshop video includes answers to common questions about Concepts.

Watch the workshop video for FREE at:

https://rohdesign.com/concepts

Be sure to download the Concepts app at concepts.app and follow along with me during the workshop!

Running Order

• Intro
• Welcome
• Who is Javier Navarro
• Origin Story
• Javier's current work
• Sponsor: Concepts
• Tips
• Tools
• Where to find Javier
• Outro

Links

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

• Javier's website
• Drwaing Your Mind Instagram
• Javier on Instagram
• Drawing Your Mind LinkedIn
• Javier on LinkedIn

Tools

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

• Moleskine Paper
• Windsor & Newton Paper
• Pentel fine tip brush pen
• Neuland markers
• Pantone Tria markers
• iPad
• Procreate

Tips

1. Don't be obsessed with perfect illustrations.
2. Work around your strengths.
3. Improve your craft one step at a time.
4. Ask clients a lot of questions before the onset of a project.
5. Prep a lot.
6. Always remember that it is all about the audience.
7. Train your mind to be visual 24 hours.

Credits

• Producer: Alec Pulianas
• Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro
• Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer

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Episode Transcript

Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike, and I'm here with my friend Javier Navarro. How are you doing, Javier? It's good to have you here.

Javier Navarro: Hi, Mike. I'm very happy to be here. Thanks for the invite.

MR: Yeah, no problem. We crossed paths—I'm trying to think where we did it. Was it through some workshop that I did? I can't remember which one 'cause I did a couple really close together. Was it the bullet journal one or was it something else?

JN: It was the lettering one.

MR: The lettering one.

JN: I remember the lettering one very well because I was really looking forward to that one. So yeah, it was the lettering one. I know your work from before, and I've been admiring your work for a long time, but that is where we started contact. Yeah.

MR: Yeah. That was sponsored by Sketch Effect, which I don't think they have—they didn't record it, but there are some tidbits online. I think if you go to Javier's social LinkedIn and such, you can find it, which we'll talk about later. But anyway, that's how we came across each other, and I started looking at your work and thought your stuff is really cool. I need to talk to this guy and bring him into the community, so people can find him and be inspired and maybe chat with him and be aware.

That's the fun thing for me, is discovering new people. Just when I think that I've talked to everybody, I just know that there's another person, 10 other people that I haven't talked to yet. So it's a never ending quest in the podcast to get new people and try and fit as many as I can in a season. So, welcome.

JN: Thank you.

MR: Why don't you jump right into, tell us who you are and what you do, and then you can go right into your origin story. Tell us how did you get to the place where you are from when you were a little boy.

JN: Yeah. Like you said, my name is Javier Navarro. I'm a London-based visual storyteller, and I've been working in—visual storytelling is an umbrella term that I feel comfortable with. It's encompassing, like graphic recordings, sketchnoting, digital visualization, you know, there are many names to what we do. I've been doing this for the last four years. My journey is quite a long one. I'm a former fashion designer. I've been working for 10 years in fashion, 10 years in homewears, and basically drawing since I'm four years old.

Illustration has been part of my professional journey all the time in different shapes and forms, but I came to graphic recording quite later, and I will get deeper into that. The thing is that during the time that I work in product design, I fulfill the whole process. I've been working with all kinds of companies, like corporate, startups, design strategy, creative strategy, training in research. So I fulfill the whole creative process and I think that informs and helps pretty much my practice as a graphic recorder as well because having been on the other side for so many years, I can understand team dynamics, team's struggles, and things like that.

Even as a kid, I've always felt really, really comfortable drawing all the time surrounded by people. By that, I don't mean that I was doing graphic recording as a kid, but I never felt like—you know, there's people who felt kind of ashamed or tense around people looking at them over the shoulder, like, "What are you doing?" So actually, it was quite calming to me. Having people talking around on me when drawing, not necessarily about what was happening around me, but drawing all the time.

Then what happened is that after this very long journey in product design, fashion, homewears, et cetera, around 2020, and that is a really relevant date for everyone as we all know. But maybe a year before that, I started realizing that I was done with product design. I didn't feel like it was contemporary. it was not contributing with anything in particular to the world, and there was no point in making more products. I was a bit of disappointed with the sector. I didn't feel it anymore.

Then I started working for a nonprofit organization, and I was part of the branding department. Here in the UK, nonprofits are really powerhouses. They really take social responsibility, they make a difference, and they're very big. They pride themselves as big companies so they're really big structures. I was part of the branding department for the London branch for this particular nonprofit. Then, when we put the strategy for the whole year, the communication strategy, at some point, my manager at that time, she knew that I knew illustration, that I have done some visuals. She asked me, "Can you put together visually our strategy for the team because we need to share from the London branch to the national branches, to all the branches from this organization." And then I put, what, now I know is my first rich picture.

The thing is that prior to that, I sometimes tried to work as an illustrator, but I always found that my ego was not in the right place. I was judging myself too much, or I felt judged by others, or maybe I was petrified of the blank page. I don't know. But the thing is that drawing with a purpose brings something different for me. When I realized that that was a thing, and there was a format where illustration, innovation, and service meet, for me, there was not turning back. It's like, "Okay, guys, I found my thing. This is what I wanna do for the rest of my life." I didn't know there was such a container. I did illustration before. I used illustration to develop product, but it was not the same thing.

This was January 2020. Then we know that March 2020, the lockdown. Fantastic year to start a new job, new product, intersect or mail it. So proud. I say this with a lot of respect because I know that it was a really hard time for everyone. It was terrible to be at home. I know many people suffer, many people passed. I know it was very hard, but for me, it was an opportunity to train because after that I realized, "Okay, this is what I love. I need to learn about this." I got myself an iPad. I read a lot of books, yours being one of them. I mean, your books I read as well. So I got myself informed about what was this? Because I have to pull a lot of stress to find out what is this about?

The great thing is that at that time, there were many, many talented people, very skilled, very experienced, bored at home with lots of time on their hands, very generous, extremely generous. Making lots of workshops, very open to meet other people, to make connections. Then in parallel, I was training myself in graphic recording as a craft, but also planting those little seeds of contacts and here and there, making some connections. When the world reopened, eventually those connections blossom, and they converted in actual projects and things that I could actually work with.

MR: Wow.

JN: That was a bit of the journey and this is where I am now.

MR: Wow.

JN: Very grateful by the way.

MR: I'm kind of curious, going back to your fashion part. You talk about, it's really important for you to think—you talked about visual storytelling. Do you feel like that stories are told in fashion design? Is that something that we maybe miss? We just see, you know, the new seasons clothes are out, and the new color is burgundy. I dunno. And we just assume that there's like this machine that runs and just produces clothes, but would you say that in fashion there's a little bit more to it that we don't see that's more story oriented or maybe that isn't there, and it's frustrating. What's frustrating for you?

JN: The thing is that I know, I understand, and I've been there that fashion from the outside looks like a very superficial and vain thing to do. But if you think about it, each and every one of us have cloths at home. We choose them from a very conscious place, whatever we want to be in fashion or not. But these are all anthropologically, it's a lot of information. If you walk on the street, you'll see people around wearing clothes, and in a very quick brain synapses, you understand who that person is. And it's something very unconscious happening.

For me, that was the most important and interesting part of fashion because anthropologically, you can tell a lot, there's a lot of industries involved, the economy is always looking ahead in a way, is not casual at all. There are many layers, interesting layers about it. There's a lot of storytelling because we tell unconsciously stories through fashion. Even if you choose not to follow fashion, that is another—

MR: That is a story. Yeah.

JN: - statement. There's a statement, but there's still a story there. You are editing that story, you're casting the elements that you need to work around it. So there's definitely a visual narrative that at any level, all of us do. That said, at a personal level, I didn't find a way to monetize that point of view and that interest. It was the capitalist side of it that I was struggling with, because at some point it's like, it's overproducing. That was my personal experience.

From a visual storytelling perspective, I know that we do. From one place or the other, we all have clothes at home we pick up and there's a inner narrative and there's a very unconscious choice. I mean, we pick up what we wear from very significant places without even knowing. You're attracted to certain colors, certain textures, certain shapes, and there's a reason why. To me, that's storytelling as well.

MR: It's down to almost the instinct level in a way, right? It just feels right. I know that I'm fascinated by clothing. I don't know that I'm very fashionable necessarily, but I'm very picky about—when I go to the store, I have to touch the fabric and feel it, like there's something tactile about it. The shirt that I'm wearing now is actually a service—it's a shirt for people that work on cars, but there's some really nice details about it, because it's nice, heavy cotton. The buttons are actually hidden behind a panel here.

The idea is when you're working on a car, if you have buttons exposed, you're gonna tear them off, sliding under the car, catching on something, so it covers it. Then on the shoulder, I think one of these shoulders, has a pen thing so you can put, I dunno, some kind of tool in there. For me, you know, I thought, "Hey, this is a perfect artist shirt." I can put a pen in my pocket. You know, it's free and floating, so I never feel constrained. It's really interesting that I accidentally stumbled on these red cap shirts that were intended for guys working on cars, but they actually fit really well for what I liked about clothing. I mean, it was a little bit more conscious, but it felt like, you know, it made some sense to me.

JN: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. There's a choice. I mean, there you have your own criteria, and then you start building your own. Those are the building blocks for your own narrative, so.

MR: Interesting. Yeah, I just thought that was a fascinating. I think the other thing I think about is we've tried to do this at the International Sketchnote Camps in years past, where we've had people that are really into urban sketching. Where we've gone off and done sketching of buildings. I would imagine there must be fashion people who are finders, I dunno what the word is, but people who find the next fashion. Because I suspect that there's people that build a fashion profile that are on the street, right?

Like you think maybe walking around Milan, and they're making these choices, telling these stories with their clothes, and someone is probably going out there and seeing like, “Well, what's going on in the street that could be the next thing that we could make more available?” There's probably people that look at that. It's a little bit like urban sketching in a way, except you're sketching people and seeing how does their overcoat flow, or what's the color choices, or all these little details. You could probably fall into a hole trying to discover all that stuff.

JN: Actually, I used to work for one of the companies that are trend forecasting those kinds of things. It's very interesting because the sources where you—it is almost like really—not really in the future, but obviously you don't have a crystal ball, but the sign, little signs and the cycles as well. Fashion is really cycling. When one thing is full, then you go to the other extreme.

One of the really interesting things that movies are a really, really guiding line to understand what is next because there's so much budget and money put behind blockbusters that you understand, okay, in a room of people thought that in two years’ time, this might be the content that people want, these are the themes, this is the angle, the perspective that you want to throw at them, and this is execution level.

And they pick up that direction, not that one. There are more women. You know, things like that also inform all those trends. I think that's more like something that could be applied to any craft, to keep an eye on those things and see where those people are thinking ahead, where are they heading to, and then that informs backwards.

MR: Kind of awareness and noticing. Being a noticer, right? Noticing the details and keeping your awareness antennas up so that you see what's happening, whatever your space is.

JN: Yeah.

MR: The other question I'm curious about with fashion is how did your fashion experience both in education and in work, how does that apply to the work you do now when you do these graphic recordings or the graphic storytelling that you're doing. How did that inform it? Was that important? Do you see fashion related ideas coming up in the work you do that sets you apart from other people?

JN: Definitely, yes. Because there's a couple of things. One is very practical and one is more like a downside, but also downside story but that is also informing. I think that one of the things you need to do when you work in fashion is analyze visually a lot. Again, I'm very much aware that fashion has a reputation for being superficial. I agree it is, but at the same time there's a working process behind. So you have to constantly be very observant and also read a lot, read images, and judge a lot.

Judge in a way that sometimes it's judgy, and sometimes it's just tagging things and moving things along. Maybe you go for a retro '70s with a bit of futuristic, and you put it together with a regular '90s look. Those little tags and observations, [clears throat] sorry, they really helped me when I have to do personas in graphic recording. For instance, if a client says, okay, this is our meeting, this is what we're discussing, and this is the audience we are targeting. I had a UX process that I have to visualize for a company, and I understood by what they were telling me, okay, these guys want the cast of Euphoria. You know the TV show?

MR: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

JN: I understood, okay, this is Gen Z, this is the profile. They were people with this kind of hair, this kind—I think that my fashion background really helped in profiling visually and creating those personas accurately.

MR: I see.

JN: You say, "I would like a middle age, central European man living in Zurich." I mean, I've been in Zurich, but I don't know exactly those people, but I can roughly picture those things. That really helps put the persona together very accurately. Sometimes it's maybe not so much for graphic recording because everything happens so quick, but for rich pictures, something that is more strategic, that really helps because in this case, with a client with Euphoria thing, he said, “You nailed that.” Because my final client, he really was targeting those people, and they can see it now. So it's very evident for them.

MR: That's really fascinating.

JN: Yeah, the downside, and I will wrap this one up, is that because I'm very used to judging, I have to do a really thorough work on myself to stop judging when I'm at event because I'm very used to be opinionated. Also, that having strong opinions is a value. You know, what we do, we are channel, we are just channeling information, reflecting on a board. What I hear on the back is not for me to judge. For me, it's been a bit of a journey because I had to make a very conscious choice, a genuine effort to say like, "Okay, no judgment."

MR: Bring yourself back a little bit. Yeah.

JN: Exactly. I mean, it's not about me, it's about them. This is a service, and I'm very loyal to that principle. So yeah.

MR: You're probably always thinking of, who will be the people who see and understand this and is my strong opinion going to get in the way of them understanding, right. That's what you're probably, I sense you're concerned about is if I have a very strong opinion when I capture this and the people who are intended to see it think of things in a certain way because of my opinion, am I pushing them in a direction when maybe the goal of this is to just present the information and let them make that choice.

I think that's a real challenge for graphic recording or sketchnoting for a client because you're always concerned about how much of my personality should I put into it? If it's just sketchnoting or something for me, I can question things or make fun of things or whatever, have my strong opinion 'cause that's really my personal approach. But when you're doing it for a client, things get a little more tricky.

JN: I feel that responsibility a lot. Actually, that's one of the things I love more about what we do, the service side of it. In order to provide that service, you need to take one step back, have no judgment, even if you're invited to the conversation with some clients, very kindly, do not reframe yourself, but put it on a context. Like, okay, my opinion is not so much—I don't need to be that indicative of that opinion. It is something. And to be very mindful that your lens shouldn't be informing the result. It's more about their lens. What is useful for the brand, what is useful for the session, what they need to reflect. That it's a very abstract thing to do. Yeah.

MR: Interesting. That's gotta be a challenge. You have to constantly remind yourself as you put things down, which is hard, right? Because you've spent so long building it as a almost a reaction, you know, the way that you think that you have to really be on your toes.

JN: Yeah, exactly that. Sometimes you understand that people are buying your personal—I mean, the way you draw. I mean, the way you process things and then sometimes makes you wonder, okay, how much of these will be buying? I mean, if they're coming to me because they love what I do, and they like my style, and they love my drawing, but how much will that determine the content? That's a balance that you need to keep very—try to keep it balanced and everything.

MR: Yeah. Really fascinating. Really interesting. I don't think we've ever had a fashion designer who's been on the show. So, you're a first there, Javier, which is great.

JN: Pioneering.

MR: Let's shift into, I would love to hear the kind of tools that you like. First, we'll talk about analog tools because honestly, when you talk about digital tools, it usually is very boring which is Procreate and iPad Pro is like everybody's answer. Now, sometimes you get some variation, but let's start with analog. What are the pens and paper and markers and whatever, you like to use in your work?

JN: I'm afraid that I'm very cheap, but actually because I've been drawing forever, since I was a kid. I'm very used to drawing with literally everything. I would say for anyone who's willing to start drawing, I wouldn't obsess with having expensive tools around you, because I find that—I mean, I don't want to be determined by the fact that I don't have my fancy things with me. So if I'm in the middle of nowhere and I could grab like a tissue paper and a big pen, I would like to be able to communicate something with that. But if you want to elevate that, and I understand I wanna do it as well.

For the analog thing, for the paper, I'm not too fussy. I use Moleskines in all the variations, and probably I'm losing a potential sponsoring team, but even the copies, the phony ones is everywhere. There's a chain here in the UK named Tiger, and they have very affordable stationary. I buy them bulk like 10 of them because I like to carry with me the small ones all the time, so I can draw, but Moleskines. The only paper I'm [unintelligible 21:12] is with Windsor & Newton. They have really, really nice notebooks. Slightly thicker texture paper, similar to [unintelligible 21:17] sometimes more so texture. They have really sturdy paper, so you can really throw any kind of wings, watermark, watercolor, anything you want to throw at it. Those are the papers.

For the pen, I distinguish. I mean, for the graphing recording thing, when I work for clients is one thing. When I do my own sketching in my part-time, or when I'm sketching for a project, but it's not a final product. I love the Muji range, any Muji thing. They're again, very affordable. From the brush pens to the ball pens, all of them. They're all really good. They're quite durable and I would highly recommend. The one that I'm in love with that might be a bit more expensive is the Pentel brush fine pen, that's the name. I highly recommend. I don't know if you know that one.

MR: I do. I think I just bought some recently in a box. Yeah.

JN: I discovered them quite recently, and I'm crazy about them because it's such a flexible tip that you can have a proper lettering, but then also you have a more artistic nuance so that you can do more.

MR: I'll show the—

JN: Amazing.

MR: Yeah, for those who are listening, I'm showing the tip. I don't think I'm getting it focused, but it's a little bit like a flare, but it's got a flexible tip, so.

JN: Exactly that.

MR: You could push it and make thin and thick lines almost like a brush pen. Not quite, but almost.

JN: The thing with those is that they do color transparently, so you can overlay colors. I mean, they respond very well to having like all pens on top. I highly recommend. They slightly more expensive, but at the same time for what you get in terms of flexibility and how much can you use them, I mean, I would totally go for it. That is all. I mean, I'm crazy about that one. Then for the actual project, I realized that for drawing people, faces, shadows, the Neuland is of course the number one art version, that will be my one to go.

Because again, it's quite similar to—it's like a more professional, not serious, but bigger scale version of the pencil brush, because you have that kind of ductility, you can still do some loose brush things and some effect and some shadowing. You can be also more specific. You have a very fine pointed thing and you can do some details. It's quite very flexible as well. Then my lettering was not great. Was much better on Pantone Tria.

Pantone Tria the usual ones are very—those are the ones—I say, Pantone could be like copy colors, all that range of Sharpies that have been around forever. Those for me, they look very well for the lettering because it's very dry, and they are very thick, and you can do angles. You are a master lettering. I'm not that good at lettering. Lettering is not one of my trends. Then I found a tool that I feel confident enough to play a bit to elevate things, but it is still very simple and keeps me very much on track. I tried to swap places and use the Neuland where the Pantone is, doesn't work.

MR: Yeah, that does have a certain style to it. I think I'm old school enough that when I was in school, I learned how to do marker rendering, which we used I think Letraset markers, which are similar. It's an alcohol-based marker. It has a certain look to it. Like when you see it, you know it right away. It has a feel to it. I think what you're saying is just this real crisp stroke, I guess.

JN: Yeah, yeah. Also, for clarity, it really helps me because I can be like really very, not specific, but I can be really bold. Like, okay, this is a letter, this is what it's done, and then I can add some bits. But with something more like a brush, some more artistic, some people are really good at creating lettering with that. I feel that things are shaking, and I don't like the end result. With this little system, I realized that I have the quick side for the lettering, and then the more organic, the more fluid thing for the figures and the persona.

MR: I see. Yeah.

JN: The metaphors. Yeah.

MR: Interesting.

JN: It's just a good Combo for me.

MR: Yeah. I think everyone has to find the right combination of things, which is why we talk about tools because, you know, I think you said you recently found out about the Art Marker. I learned about it from Austin Cleon, and he just learned about it too. Like they've been around for a while, and he stumbled onto them and bought a box like I did. You never know where the next tool that might be helpful would be coming from.

JN: Yeah. Exactly that. Again, I try to not—I rather experiment and work on a budget and then try cheap stuff around me and some more expensive one, and have a wide range, rather than really be obsessed with getting the fancier box of, I'm not gonna name brands, but really expensive ones because it always feels like you need some validation to feel like a professional while the skill is somewhere else, for me. I mean, the tools help, that's for sure, but having a wide range of more affordable things that I can buy almost anywhere. Muji stores are everywhere. If I lost my luggage on the flight, I can go somewhere and get them, and I'm not panicking, finding the proper store, so, yeah.

MR: Yeah. I think even in a pinch like eBay or Amazon probably sell Fuji stuff or Fuji's website, you can get it there too, so. Yeah.

JN: Yep.

MR: Very interesting. What about digital? I'm assuming you can have the answer like everybody else.

JN: Oh yeah. Yeah, of course, Procreate. I would say, and I would like to know your opinion on that one, because I started my craft during the pandemic, so everything was online and digital. That's when I joined myself with Procreate and everything was very much digital. But right when things start opening, now the ratio of digital versus analog is like 60:40, I would say. People are really enjoying analog and Sharpies and boards. Is it the same for you?

MR: Yeah. I've noticed a swing back. I think in the pandemic just because you had to go digital because you were calling in or something, right. And everybody was on Zoom, you had to turn it into something. That was a shift to, you know, iPads and Procreate being that tool of choice. Some of the places that I talked to during the pandemic said that they were fortunate that they had been experimenting, had bought some iPads and got Procreate and pencils and were ready. So when things hit, they were in a better position. Like Sketch Effect was one of those places. Said that they had been experimenting. Other people that I talked to, you can go back to the podcast episodes, were surprised, and they had to kind of scramble a little bit and get an iPad and or get the old iPad and see if they could make something work.

And so, I think the experience is different, but it was definitely a forcing function. I think there are some places where that makes sense, but now that we're meeting in person, I think there is a desire to see the thing. There's a little bit of almost like a comedy or jazz like improvisation happening in front of you, right? Where you can see this thing emerging in front of you, you know, where if it's online, I mean, you're probably looking at speaker and not at the thing that's being drawn unless they're putting it in a little window. But there's something fascinating I think for people to see these things happen in real time.

JN: Yeah, yeah.

MR: ‘Cause You might think like, oh yeah, they just listened to the recording, which is another approach, right. Is get a recording and convert it. But to see it happening live, there's something fascinating about that. So I do think there is kind of a balanced back, but I think digital is probably here to stay. For certain projects, it just makes more sense, so.

JN: Absolutely. Yeah. I embrace both, but the reaction from the audience is so different. The level of engagement and the way they engage is so different because with the boards and Sharpie, people, I can feel they can get closer, and they can talk to you and interact. And they don't feel like sticking a post is wrong. I mean, this is like what I thought, I'm not in this bit. And there's more like, I think that is a more like, of an ownership, whereas with digital, you have a very pristine, clean finish, but there's a distance to it. I think people see you like, wow, this is, this is great. But they get closer to a screen, they say, "I wanna take a picture." And they leave. So there's a different interaction, different engagement. So yeah, it depends

MR: In a way, with the digital, you become the operator with full access, and they become the observer, and all they can do is request. I think the same is true with physical things. But I think the cool thing is with physical things, like you said, depending on how you structure it and how you open the floor, it might come more like if they see you putting sticky notes on there with notes, then they might feel more open to it, or they come and talk to you and say, "Yeah, please, write something and put it on there." Like, "Oh, I have permission?" Like, yeah, they just don't feel like there's any way to do that with digital other than, "Javier, can you write this thing?" Well, now it's like in position on you to translate for them.

Where if you're in more of a facilitating environment where, you know, you've got a group of people. I've been in those situations, the zone is a little closer, and you can sort of set the tone for the environment to say, “Hey, this board is for us and we're doing it together, and we're making something together.” The other place I see that happening is in whenever I do any kind of work, I like to include sketches with clients rather than going right to finish, because I think a lot of times when a client sees finish, they just see, "Well, I can't say anything. He's already at the end.” And they might feel bad. And so, by including them in the process with sketches, it makes it a lot more interactive. So, maybe that's what you're feeling as well.

JN: Yeah. And the thing is that one of the things—my favorite project is one where there’s a co-creation with a client. So maybe it's more of a draft state, but there are a few projects where I've been working so close with a team, and it was literally like erasing things and drawing and erasing. “And no, that's not what I meant. It should be a different sports card. No, not this one. Different building.” But I love that one because there's only, there's not just an ownership, but there's a richness to the process.

MR: Yeah.

JN: Otherwise it's me interpreting, us interpreting our own thing. I want to think that most of the time it's very accurate interpretation, but might not be the case. And then if you're working hand in hand with them, I mean, that for me is my favorite thing. Being slightly more on the strategic side with them, draft early stages, and then I can polish and go back to my corner, my studio, I polish the thing and I send it back. But working with them closer to me, the co-creation process, to me, is the best one.

MR: Yeah. They can identify themselves in the work. I think what that means is that long term if it's a means to an end. Let's say what you're doing is a means to doing something, which might be something else. The thing you're doing is not the final result. It's just a way to kind of get everybody aligned. That the likelihood of that project being what you captured on the board is higher because you had that interaction, and you're capturing the real voices and correcting. So that's what I've seen is when, you know, I did work like that for software, I had developers come up and draw on the board their ideas, right? So then I knew their voice was there and then we correct it. Then we were more likely to have produced something that worked, so.

JN: And very interestingly, I think in my experience as an arc, so people at the beginning, this conversation, they say, “I'm not a visual person. I cannot draw. I have no idea what I'm doing. You're the artist.” But then as the conversation evolved, they realize how visual they are. And the most shy people—it is like karaoke of it. I mean, you know, when you're in a karaoke, nobody wants to grab the microphone.

MR: Yeah.

JN: But after a couple of songs, they were like, “No, no, this is my turn.” So there's a narrative and that informs how even people who think they're not visual, they can come with the most amazing visual metaphors. It is almost like a train, it's like you can heat up and you can train that muscle. And during the session that's growing, and you can see the growth in the same session, and they're way more confident at the end. So yeah. I thought that was an amazing process.

MR: That can be an opportunity if someone's listening with a group that continuously meets. So as the example, I cited before I was with the software team, and Mondays was our whiteboard. We had a giant whiteboard, and we would go through features adding to the software and all the developers would sit at the table, and they would talk, and I would draw, and they would see the things, and sometimes they would say, “How are you reading my mind?” “Well, you're talking. I'm just listening.” But they would often come to the board and draw their own thing.

And so, there was like, you know, our team, this is what we do. we draw on whiteboards, and we have discussions, and if we want to add something, we're welcome to come up. So you sort of build this a little micro culture of how things work. So over the period of four or five, six weeks, at some point, they just feel confident, “I'm gonna come up and draw something.” And it just—

JN: That's great.

MR: So I think—

JN: That's great because also I bet that they made them more receptive to visuals eventually. Like part of them down the line, they were more receptive, and it felt like this is something that you stick to the world would never look at it again. They start thinking visually, which is a great, yeah.

MR: You know, originally when I did this, it was because I was one designer and there were 50 developers and product managers, so, I was clearly a bottleneck however I wanted to slice it. So I thought, well, how can I reduce that pressure? My solution was this whiteboarding. When we would get done after every session, we would take a photo and put it in a SharePoint, so everybody had access to it. Very often the developers would be faster than me. I couldn't do a mockup as fast as they could start building just because of 50 of them and one of me.

So they would grab, pull up the image, they could read through all the notes that I was taking, see the imagery. And you know, usually at the end when we would get done with a session, I would finish with—I would star things like, “We think this is the winner and here's why.” And I'd write little notes so they could go in and see this, and then just start building. And then they would call me over and say, “Hey Mike, what do you think about this?” I started building this thing we talked about last week. Does this make sense? Is there any UX stuff that doesn't make sense? And we would sort of work through that. So they felt confident to even move ahead simply with a sketch, right. It was enough. We didn't have to have a prototype of anything or a mockup. So that was pretty cool.

JN: Wow. That's amazing. Yeah, sounds like a great process. I'm envious openly.

MR: Well, it only lasted a few years. I was a contractor, so eventually that time ended, but they all remember that time that we worked together. And I think it gave them appreciation for visualization as a way of solving problems.

JN: Exactly, yeah.

MR: So, yeah. I think it was pretty cool.

JN: Agreed.

MR: Well, let's move to our practical tips. This is the fun part of the show, where we get practical. And Javier has indicated that he had may have more than three. I usually suggest three just to make it reasonable for my guests, but we always are welcoming more than three. If you have more. So, Javier, let us know what your tips are for someone who's listening, and they're a visual thinker, but they just need a little encouragement.

JN: So I'll be quick. Some of them are more practical than others, so.

MR: Sure. That's fine.

JN: Yeah. I wanna say, first of all, please do not get obsessed with illustrations to be perfect and to be like the next renaissance artist because I was also a lecturer for fashion and fashion illustration, and I said so many times people get so tense, so rigid around drawing even the hands and the fingers were tense, and they were obsessing with the little tiny thing. And this is like, “No, this is not the way you should be doing.” I mean, my point is that this is about communicating. So this is about communication and service rather than the perfection illustration.

Of course, illustration helps. But for me, for instance, and I'm not arrogant or cocky, I'm confident that I'm a fairly good illustrator because it's one of the skills I have, but still, I have to retrain myself to transfer that into a service because the mean is to make it work for someone else. So don't get obsessed about the illustration. Especially don't get pulled off by it. it's all about communicating.

And some people, if you play charades or Pictionary, you know, where you have to throw a movie, people have the skill with three lines that they draw three lines and say, “oh, Star Wars, I know that.” So that is the kind of skill that you require, rather than have a very nice illustration perfectly done. That helps. That's helping. But to be honest, I've seen like really good illustrators doing like very poor graphic recording sessions because it's not so much about how intricate the design is, how accurate the faces are. It's not so much about that. It's about communicating what people in the room wanna talk about.

MR: Yep.

JN: That will be my first. Also, I would recommend that someone who has fairly recently started, build around your own strengths. I mean, for instance, in my case, I am not great at lettering. So instead of investing like six years and trying to get the level of the lettering people I admire, I work on making the lettering work for me. So it's clear, it's clean. I have some level of creativity where it can elevate and integrate. It'll be integrated in the piece. But I work around the other strength, which is the persona who we're talking about getting more the visual metaphors. That's something I feel is one of my strengths.

So I would say if you are blocked, or you feel a bit anxious about things in graphic recording, find your strength. Say, okay, I'm really good at font lettering. This is my thing. So I can prioritize that over drawing. And then I could go with simple drawing or the other way around. My layouts are brilliant and super clear. I'm very structural focus on that. Of course, there's always room for improvement. Improve your thing one step at a time, but don't wait until everything is at the top level to crack on it. I mean, building blocks, and instead do your strongest thing at the core and build around it.

MR: I love that. Yeah. I love that.

JN: Thanks. Then another one, this is a practical one. When you get to the stage, when you have a client with a brief, ask millions of questions. So even things like size of the room, lighting, is there a stool for me? Is there a table? Is there a desk for me. What is my space? What do you expect from me? Ask about the brief, the audience. What do they need? What is the aim of the meeting? What is the tone? Is it gonna be a difficult conversation, you reckon? Do you want people to come to solutions? Do you want just to draft intentions? So try to be as granular as possible with the client at that stage.

And another one is, and kind of tuning into that one is prep a lot. I mean, for me, prepping is key because it is very strange because what works for me is like prepping like a maniac because that gives me the freedom once I enter the room to be ready to teach everything that I prepared. I didn't be present, but I have the confidence of teaching everything that I prepared because I prepare it.

MR: Yeah.

JN: So I don't know if that makes sense, but for me, prepping, mind being clear about everything, and try to get familiar with the company craft, what they do, how they do it, acronym, their own lingo, how they talk, that really helps me to be focused on the meeting. Even if I'm ready to get—and it happens more time than many. I dunno if that is your experience as well, but more than many have to get rid of. Like, everything I prepare, it doesn't work here and that’s where [crosstalk 41:19].

MR: You gotta adapt.

JN: Yeah, but I feel more ready to adapt when I'm already more prepped. I mean, I don't know how this works, but.

MR: I wonder if it's because you're internalizing it, right? By processing it, you're sort of putting it in a memory bank someplace and then if it can call on it. you can use it if you need it, but you can also feel free to go in a different direction knowing that you've done your prep. Yeah.

JN: Exactly that and it's almost like even if you haven't met the whole team, everyone in the room, you are already familiar. So it feels comfortable. There's almost like a soft tense one. You get in there, you have an idea what is going on, you have a feel for it. And then that at least allows me to be in a much open space. That's my thing.

MR: That's interesting. It's interesting you can observe that for yourself and maybe other people can try it and see if that works for them too.

JN: Yeah. I mean, I will be curious to know how that portfolio—because also it's a very strange thing to share. I understand that is a bit like, “What do you mean? Prep or not prep?” I would say prep a lot. Get rid of it. That will be my tip. Then just a couple more. I mean, one thing that is not about you, it's not about me, it's about them.

MR: Yeah.

JN: So for me, I mean, it made the difference when I realized that, and I get asked by friends and family, and colleagues like, “Don't you panic when you’re drawing in front of all those people? Are you terrified?” But it's not like they're looking at you at the time, and it's not about you. It's about what they're talking. It's about them. Most of the time they don't look at me. I'm just a channel. I'm channeling information. I'm not so much in the center. So if anyone out there is panicking about that, it's not about you. We are not so important. What we do I think it's very important, but it's important for what it is for them, for the group, for the session.

MR: What can we provide? Yeah.

JN: Yeah. It's exactly that, what we provide, what we share, and how we contribute rather than us as individuals. So it's not about us. I embrace that a lot. That's a relief for me.

MR: Yeah. That's a good thing. Yeah.

JN: The last one is, I would suggest train your mind to be visual 24 hours. I would say, I mean, looking at a thing is free, you don't even have to have a notebook with you or a pen. Even if you're on the tube and then somebody has your hand very close to you, try to imagine how would you draw it and try to be visual on your everyday life in a way that start training your eyes on seeing things visually and how would you draw in your mind, everything surrounding you, so.

MR: That's a good one.

JN: I dunno, I mean, that's something that worked for me even before graphic recording. I love drawing. And I was thinking that angle, that food, that hand, that dog, and that's something that you don't need to switch it on only when you have a paper with you. It’s something that all they can travel with you, and you can be in that mindset.

MR: The question I ask myself is what are the most interesting things I'm seeing? So that can benefit you as a photographer, right? Like, what's the most interesting shot I could take? Just not moving anywhere, just sitting where I'm sitting or standing where I'm standing. And what's most—

JN: That's a really good one.

MR: Yeah, so that could be a good one too.

JN: Again, it's for free, so hey, you are just seeing things anyway, now that you're there, do something with it.

MR: Turn it on. Yeah, exactly.

JN: Yeah.

MR: That's great. Thank you for all the tips. This has been wonderful.

JN: You're welcome.

MR: Of course, they will appear in the tips’ episode at the end of the season, so people can enjoy them twice, which is great.

JN: Perfect. Fantastic. Thank you. Glad to help. Happy to help. Also, my experience is quite recent, so I've been in the shoes of people if they're trying to get into working visually.

MR: Yeah, that's great.

JN: It's quite recent, so I can empathize with the struggle. The struggle is real.

MR: Yeah, yeah. So Javier, what's the best place for people to find you, websites, social media, so they can connect with you and see your work and such?

JN: Yeah. Thanks for that. I mean my website is drawingyourmind.com, like drawing your mind, very clear. I got the.com because it's not such a common name, so I'm proud of that one.

MR: Good move.

JN: So, www.drawingyourmind.com and the same tag handle for Instagram, LinkedIn, and whatever platforms are coming our way with AI and everything going on. Yeah, both on Insta, LinkedIn, and Twitter threads everywhere, drawingyourmind.com. That will be me.

MR: Got it. That's great. Well, Javier, thanks so much for being on the show. It's been great to have you and to hear your experience. I love the fashion angle. At some point in the future, you can guide me being a more fashionable guy. I used to get GQ Magazine just to see what was happening. I don't know why. I didn't have the money to buy anything they showed me, but I stole ideas the best I could, so.

JN: I'm very happy to do that, but just bear in mind that I moved from fashion for a reason. I feel like it's best that we stay where we are. We need cloths, hat's fine. There are many options out there. I wouldn't go there. But yeah, let's embrace where we are now.

MR: Sounds good. Sounds good. Well, thank you, Javier. It's been good to have you here, and I look forward to you being involved in the community. You're already involved in the community, so we're happy to have you. And for anyone who's watching or listening, this is another episode of the podcast. Until next time, talk to you soon.

JN: Thank you very much. Bye-bye.