NCELive #NCELive - Vivienne Porritt - No 27 - Being a better ally
Aug 12, 2020
58:09
Insightful conversation with Vivienne Porritt and live session members on some (tip of the iceberg)of the challenges around women and equality in education and how men can be better allies!
Video link to conversation:
https://zoom.us/rec/share/w9VLdOHsqF9JQ43WwkH8ZL4tJ6fXT6a8gXIZr_sFxBpr-VOX08z9A01F2gSuHbbQ
Access Password: ^Re8IMFU
Chat box notes:
00:20:52Nick Heard:Please feel free to post thoughts, comments and reflections here!
00:35:42Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:as men, we should do that too.
00:35:59Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:the issues faced by women in education are the issue for all of ua
00:36:06Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:*us
00:37:46Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:I’ve set myself the target of bringing 10 HeForShe me to womened events this year. COVID got in the way of the actual events next
00:39:34Lucy Oragano:Timothee- I think the issue is also about the 'gaps' women experience; having children, going part-time etc. It can impact on women 'falling' behind.
00:40:09Lucy Oragano:Men don't tend to have those 'gaps' therefore they 'overtake' women in their careers
00:40:09Nick Heard:Martyn - coming to you next!
00:41:03Julie Stewart:I've been quite lucky in that both schools I've worked in have had a very good proportion of women leaders. I have noticed the pay gap in my own settings, however. I have only in the last few years found the confidence and knowledge to have discussions about my pay and negotiate in a way men seem more likely to do this.
00:41:06Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:I often take over schools as HT where part time women are not allowed to apply for leadership posts
00:41:09Laura Olley:There is a HBR article ( Olekains, Sept 2019) that suggests that women negotiate poorly, lack confidence and are too risk adverse when it comes to discussing pay. How do we help them to get better at this?
00:41:57Lucy Oragano:Characteristics of gender play a part- women much less likely to negotiate salary etc and lack confidence (generally) over men
00:42:00Matt Silver:The internal and external sources. Self development and the system
00:42:06Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:Women knowing and claiming their financial waste is a big issue
00:43:13Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:3 of the women I’ve supported during the holidays is how to have the difficult conversation about pay!
00:47:25Lucy Oragano:Leadership styles also play a part
00:47:32Matt Silver:Psychological defences: denial, projection and rationalisation. How conscious are the individuals, the system and the culture? Support and challenge are the counter to entrenched behaviour as unconscious habits
00:47:34Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:your example proves the point that you are a male head & the site manager is a male. even though only 2 men, both senior positions
00:48:40Lucy Oragano:Its hard to be a woman leader and having to educate (not all) men on the issues women face without sounding like you're moaning!!
00:49:16Matt Silver:Does unity of delivery overcome this Lucy??
00:49:51Lucy Oragano:Time is also an issue- often promotion comes (in education) from those who have more time to volunteer for projects and can offer more hours- women don't always have this time
00:50:23Timothee Nguessan:i am more than happy to join in the campaign
00:50:28Matt Silver:What would your system design look like to overcome this?
00:50:34Timothee Nguessan:please send details
00:50:35Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:Exactly Lucy. That’s why men should do more of the moaning about inequality
00:50:42Lucy Oragano:Agreed!!
00:50:45Jason Oster:I think when equality doesn't hurt you in any particular obvious way it is easy to turn a blind eye to it and remain ignorant, so for me it's all about raising awareness of the issues.
00:52:06Julie Stewart:We must model equality for our pupils
00:53:15Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:agreed Julie. we must model for everyone.
00:53:18Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:yes
00:53:43WomenEd:WomenEd would love some blogs from you all based on tonight. Send to vivienneporritt28@gmail.com
00:54:10Lucy Oragano:happy to
00:54:19Julie Stewart:definitely
00:54:26Lucy Oragano:Gendered curriculums also play a part
00:54:36Lucy Oragano:masculine and feminine subjects
00:55:18Lucy Oragano:Good point Joan- many see education leadership as a race to the top
00:56:53Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:Here is my #HeForSheAtHome blog that Vivienne published for me to coincide with WomenEd’s 5th birthday https://www.womened.org/blog/london-blogs/time-for-men-to-woman-up-the-heforsheathome-challenge
00:57:18WomenEd:WomenEd would also love some punchy case studies if you have great examples of how flexible working benefits your staff, organisation and pupils. DM @ViviennePorritt for the short template. All case studies are hosted by Chartered College
00:57:48Lucy Oragano:Thanks Vivienne- I did a work share once (for a forward thinking head) and it was amazing
00:58:53Laura Olley:Parents sometimes also reinforce the problem. In a predominantly female primary setting, it is not uncommon for parents to be heard saying things like 'so pleased he has a male teacher' or 'I think a male teacher would be good for them' even if they are a weaker member of staff because they are often few and far between at primary level and there is a misconception that their gender makes them stronger/firmer/stricter etc.
01:00:10Nick Heard:Welcome Chris1
01:00:13Nick Heard:Chris!
01:00:23Lucy Oragano:It can be beneficial and not beneficial- sometimes hearing women have 'done it' with or without children can be motivational
01:00:59Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:A Talent development programme in school that is loud & proud about providing opportunities for women is a significant move for any school leader to make to encourage, engage & empower women
01:01:18Lucy Oragano:But I think ultimately that women lack confidence is what makes other women want to hold them back
01:01:32Lucy Oragano:Agree parents can also be part of the problem
01:02:22Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:talent development is key to holding onto people
01:02:31Matt Silver:A reference for your essays: https://hbr.org/2019/06/research-women-score-higher-than-men-in-most-leadership-skills
01:02:43Lucy Oragano:Thank you Matt
01:03:33Martyn Payne:Thanks Matt
01:03:42Julie Stewart:thank you
01:05:16Lucy Oragano:flexibility - meetings/working hours
01:05:17Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:find out what the issue is for the person...listen & actually hear the issue...ask how they would like to be supported. then actively help make it happen
01:05:27Matt Silver:Susanne R. Cook-Greuter, Nine Levels Of Increasing Embrace In Ego Development:
A Full-Spectrum Theory Of Vertical Growth And Meaning Making http://www.cook-greuter.com/Cook-Greuter%209%20levels%20paper%20new%201.1%2714%2097p[1].pdf
01:05:36Lucy Oragano:Listen to women at all levels
01:06:09Amalia Pickles:Lucy, absolutely!
01:06:15Angela MURPHY:As leaders we can encourage women and BAME colleagues we lead to be 10% braver - have those conversations about long term career plans and provide opportunities, bolster confidence to put those achievements within their grasp
01:08:24Lucy Oragano:Agreed Angela
01:09:46Lucy Oragano:Ultimately we all need to help more women get to headship so other women can see it as a reality
01:09:55Angela MURPHY:yes! agreed
01:10:11Lucy Oragano:If that's what they desire of course
01:11:13Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:I’ve supported 51 DHTs into Headship...35 of those have been women
01:11:44Timothee Nguessan:Thank you!
01:11:59Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:we need more people to step up to actively coach & support women as HeForShe
01:12:25Joan Henshaw: Totally agree with you Vivian
01:12:39Angela MURPHY:That's incredible Patrick - I do wonder how many of us avoid the aspiration altogether because of the confidence needed to aspire to it in the first place?
01:12:54Martyn Payne:Thanks
01:13:09Julie Stewart:thank you all. Fired up!
01:13:11Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:many talk about imposter syndrome &/or the inequalities they face
01:13:24Elaine Martin:Thank you!
01:13:25Angela MURPHY:Yes I can totally imagine that
01:13:33Matt Silver:Understanding your own inner lines of development allow you to become more conscious of your behaviours but also enable you to understand the inner lines of development (or not) of others and how to connect with them on their level
01:13:40Lucy Oragano:The book is brilliant
01:14:00Angela MURPHY:I've got it next on my pile Lucy!
01:14:00WomenEd:Martyn, send me an email - vivienneporritt28@gmail.com
01:15:09Jason Oster:Really thought-provoking, thanks!
01:15:15Laura Olley:Thank you.
01:15:16Angela MURPHY:Thank you!!
01:15:18Martyn Payne:Thank you for this - it’s been great and I can’t wait to explore this further with my team. I’ll be in touch Vivienne.
01:15:20Sue:Thank you.
01:15:25Lucy Oragano:Its going to rain
01:15:36WomenEd:Thank you everyone for joining in
01:15:36Matt Silver:Thank you for all of your contributions!
01:15:40Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:thanks for hosting. good to see you again Vivienne 😀
01:15:41Julie Stewart:enjoy your rest of summer!
01:15:52Joan Henshaw:Thank you . Great discussion and ideas.
01:15:53Lucy Oragano:Sorry for dominating the chat!
01:15:58Amalia Pickles:Thank you, Vivienne, always inspirational :-)
Video link to conversation:
https://zoom.us/rec/share/w9VLdOHsqF9JQ43WwkH8ZL4tJ6fXT6a8gXIZr_sFxBpr-VOX08z9A01F2gSuHbbQ
Access Password: ^Re8IMFU
Chat box notes:
00:20:52Nick Heard:Please feel free to post thoughts, comments and reflections here!
00:35:42Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:as men, we should do that too.
00:35:59Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:the issues faced by women in education are the issue for all of ua
00:36:06Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:*us
00:37:46Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:I’ve set myself the target of bringing 10 HeForShe me to womened events this year. COVID got in the way of the actual events next
00:39:34Lucy Oragano:Timothee- I think the issue is also about the 'gaps' women experience; having children, going part-time etc. It can impact on women 'falling' behind.
00:40:09Lucy Oragano:Men don't tend to have those 'gaps' therefore they 'overtake' women in their careers
00:40:09Nick Heard:Martyn - coming to you next!
00:41:03Julie Stewart:I've been quite lucky in that both schools I've worked in have had a very good proportion of women leaders. I have noticed the pay gap in my own settings, however. I have only in the last few years found the confidence and knowledge to have discussions about my pay and negotiate in a way men seem more likely to do this.
00:41:06Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:I often take over schools as HT where part time women are not allowed to apply for leadership posts
00:41:09Laura Olley:There is a HBR article ( Olekains, Sept 2019) that suggests that women negotiate poorly, lack confidence and are too risk adverse when it comes to discussing pay. How do we help them to get better at this?
00:41:57Lucy Oragano:Characteristics of gender play a part- women much less likely to negotiate salary etc and lack confidence (generally) over men
00:42:00Matt Silver:The internal and external sources. Self development and the system
00:42:06Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:Women knowing and claiming their financial waste is a big issue
00:43:13Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:3 of the women I’ve supported during the holidays is how to have the difficult conversation about pay!
00:47:25Lucy Oragano:Leadership styles also play a part
00:47:32Matt Silver:Psychological defences: denial, projection and rationalisation. How conscious are the individuals, the system and the culture? Support and challenge are the counter to entrenched behaviour as unconscious habits
00:47:34Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:your example proves the point that you are a male head & the site manager is a male. even though only 2 men, both senior positions
00:48:40Lucy Oragano:Its hard to be a woman leader and having to educate (not all) men on the issues women face without sounding like you're moaning!!
00:49:16Matt Silver:Does unity of delivery overcome this Lucy??
00:49:51Lucy Oragano:Time is also an issue- often promotion comes (in education) from those who have more time to volunteer for projects and can offer more hours- women don't always have this time
00:50:23Timothee Nguessan:i am more than happy to join in the campaign
00:50:28Matt Silver:What would your system design look like to overcome this?
00:50:34Timothee Nguessan:please send details
00:50:35Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:Exactly Lucy. That’s why men should do more of the moaning about inequality
00:50:42Lucy Oragano:Agreed!!
00:50:45Jason Oster:I think when equality doesn't hurt you in any particular obvious way it is easy to turn a blind eye to it and remain ignorant, so for me it's all about raising awareness of the issues.
00:52:06Julie Stewart:We must model equality for our pupils
00:53:15Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:agreed Julie. we must model for everyone.
00:53:18Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:yes
00:53:43WomenEd:WomenEd would love some blogs from you all based on tonight. Send to vivienneporritt28@gmail.com
00:54:10Lucy Oragano:happy to
00:54:19Julie Stewart:definitely
00:54:26Lucy Oragano:Gendered curriculums also play a part
00:54:36Lucy Oragano:masculine and feminine subjects
00:55:18Lucy Oragano:Good point Joan- many see education leadership as a race to the top
00:56:53Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:Here is my #HeForSheAtHome blog that Vivienne published for me to coincide with WomenEd’s 5th birthday https://www.womened.org/blog/london-blogs/time-for-men-to-woman-up-the-heforsheathome-challenge
00:57:18WomenEd:WomenEd would also love some punchy case studies if you have great examples of how flexible working benefits your staff, organisation and pupils. DM @ViviennePorritt for the short template. All case studies are hosted by Chartered College
00:57:48Lucy Oragano:Thanks Vivienne- I did a work share once (for a forward thinking head) and it was amazing
00:58:53Laura Olley:Parents sometimes also reinforce the problem. In a predominantly female primary setting, it is not uncommon for parents to be heard saying things like 'so pleased he has a male teacher' or 'I think a male teacher would be good for them' even if they are a weaker member of staff because they are often few and far between at primary level and there is a misconception that their gender makes them stronger/firmer/stricter etc.
01:00:10Nick Heard:Welcome Chris1
01:00:13Nick Heard:Chris!
01:00:23Lucy Oragano:It can be beneficial and not beneficial- sometimes hearing women have 'done it' with or without children can be motivational
01:00:59Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:A Talent development programme in school that is loud & proud about providing opportunities for women is a significant move for any school leader to make to encourage, engage & empower women
01:01:18Lucy Oragano:But I think ultimately that women lack confidence is what makes other women want to hold them back
01:01:32Lucy Oragano:Agree parents can also be part of the problem
01:02:22Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:talent development is key to holding onto people
01:02:31Matt Silver:A reference for your essays: https://hbr.org/2019/06/research-women-score-higher-than-men-in-most-leadership-skills
01:02:43Lucy Oragano:Thank you Matt
01:03:33Martyn Payne:Thanks Matt
01:03:42Julie Stewart:thank you
01:05:16Lucy Oragano:flexibility - meetings/working hours
01:05:17Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:find out what the issue is for the person...listen & actually hear the issue...ask how they would like to be supported. then actively help make it happen
01:05:27Matt Silver:Susanne R. Cook-Greuter, Nine Levels Of Increasing Embrace In Ego Development:
A Full-Spectrum Theory Of Vertical Growth And Meaning Making http://www.cook-greuter.com/Cook-Greuter%209%20levels%20paper%20new%201.1%2714%2097p[1].pdf
01:05:36Lucy Oragano:Listen to women at all levels
01:06:09Amalia Pickles:Lucy, absolutely!
01:06:15Angela MURPHY:As leaders we can encourage women and BAME colleagues we lead to be 10% braver - have those conversations about long term career plans and provide opportunities, bolster confidence to put those achievements within their grasp
01:08:24Lucy Oragano:Agreed Angela
01:09:46Lucy Oragano:Ultimately we all need to help more women get to headship so other women can see it as a reality
01:09:55Angela MURPHY:yes! agreed
01:10:11Lucy Oragano:If that's what they desire of course
01:11:13Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:I’ve supported 51 DHTs into Headship...35 of those have been women
01:11:44Timothee Nguessan:Thank you!
01:11:59Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:we need more people to step up to actively coach & support women as HeForShe
01:12:25Joan Henshaw: Totally agree with you Vivian
01:12:39Angela MURPHY:That's incredible Patrick - I do wonder how many of us avoid the aspiration altogether because of the confidence needed to aspire to it in the first place?
01:12:54Martyn Payne:Thanks
01:13:09Julie Stewart:thank you all. Fired up!
01:13:11Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:many talk about imposter syndrome &/or the inequalities they face
01:13:24Elaine Martin:Thank you!
01:13:25Angela MURPHY:Yes I can totally imagine that
01:13:33Matt Silver:Understanding your own inner lines of development allow you to become more conscious of your behaviours but also enable you to understand the inner lines of development (or not) of others and how to connect with them on their level
01:13:40Lucy Oragano:The book is brilliant
01:14:00Angela MURPHY:I've got it next on my pile Lucy!
01:14:00WomenEd:Martyn, send me an email - vivienneporritt28@gmail.com
01:15:09Jason Oster:Really thought-provoking, thanks!
01:15:15Laura Olley:Thank you.
01:15:16Angela MURPHY:Thank you!!
01:15:18Martyn Payne:Thank you for this - it’s been great and I can’t wait to explore this further with my team. I’ll be in touch Vivienne.
01:15:20Sue:Thank you.
01:15:25Lucy Oragano:Its going to rain
01:15:36WomenEd:Thank you everyone for joining in
01:15:36Matt Silver:Thank you for all of your contributions!
01:15:40Patrick Ottley-O’Connor:thanks for hosting. good to see you again Vivienne 😀
01:15:41Julie Stewart:enjoy your rest of summer!
01:15:52Joan Henshaw:Thank you . Great discussion and ideas.
01:15:53Lucy Oragano:Sorry for dominating the chat!
01:15:58Amalia Pickles:Thank you, Vivienne, always inspirational :-)