Alkisti Stolp on Listening & Creativity

Alkisit Stolp is the cofounder & Chief Brand Officer of twentyrising in Berlin. Previously she held senior roles at Wunderman Thompson, Media.Monks, and VML. We first connected when they just opened their doors, through this newsletter, so I was excited catch up.

Nice. So I start all these conversations the same way with this question that I borrowed from a friend of mine. She's a neighbor. She helps people tell their stories. And I stole the question because it's big and beautiful. But because it's big and beautiful, I kind of over explain it. So before I ask it, I want you to know that you're in total control. You can answer or not answer any way that you want to. And the question is, where do you come from?

Wow. Well, I love it because let me say this before I answer. You know, when you grow older, all of a sudden, everything is way more transactional and operational. So you know, when you're in your 20s, and you know, you want to know the world and people want to know you, you get these questions, and then you're so excited to give answers. And then it's all about, okay, what do you do for a living? So it's very, very different.

Yeah, but I come from a city in the south of Athens, Greece, and its name literally translates to Sun City. And it's a place where, you know, you walk on the streets, and you smell the scent of wild citrus, and you see the sea. And I guess having grown up in such a scenery where every morning and every night, the first thing I would see was the horizon, all the way to the sea. I think this made me quite open and curious. And fast forward 30 something years, I made it to Berlin. After some stops in between.

What do you remember as a girl, like what you wanted to be when you grew up?

Yeah, of course I do. First, I wanted to be a volcano expert.

A volcano expert?

A volcano expert. I remember being, you know, a little girl, probably watching some documentary or reading a book. And this is what I decided because I loved how lava looked. And then some senses came into my head. And I decided I wanted to become a journalist, mostly because I think this curiosity of exploring, as well as the beauty of storytelling, because I was reading since very young, many, many books, I love reading. And yeah, then I wanted to become a journalist.

But I didn't. I think I explored many different things before landing into advertising. And this has only been to my benefit. So I wanted to become a journalist. I tried to do so. I didn't make it to the school that I wanted. And then because I was very proud and stubborn, I said, fine, I'll study marketing.

But it was an act of rebellion?

Exactly. Like becoming a technocrat was an act of rebellion. Exactly. And this is how I ended up going to the north of the UK to study marketing. And then I started working in the HR department of a hospital. And then I did a master's in in fashion, because someone said, fashion marketing is the next big thing. So I did my MA there. But I guess I wasn't creative enough. You know, I was in the verge of potentially becoming a creative person, but no. So I started working in magazines, in publications. And yeah.

Where are you at that time? What city are you in?

That time I'm in London. You're in London? I'm in London. And they have a fashion school. And it's exhilarating. And then I'm working in these niche magazines where it's a little bit of culture, it's a little bit of fashion. And I do everything. I do the advertorials, I do the photographer's assistant. I do a little bit of, you know, invoicing. And it's amazing. And it's exhilarating. And then I decided to go back to Athens and open my own magazine, which I did. That seems like that was a particular, what years are we talking about in my mind, but it feels like that was a particular moment, probably in magazines and magazine culture.

Yeah, yeah. I think it was, it was still the early 2000s. And back then Athens, which I know now, comparing it to New York is silly, but I think they were following the steps of the village voice. So it was very popular too. We had a magazine called Athens voice, actually. Copying it completely, which was, you know, this kind of old school, cool version of timeout, I guess, with a little bit of, you know, profiling and interviews of cool people, artists and writers and journalists. And it was a moment, you know, living within the pop culture and shaping the pop culture. It was great. And then it was also the time where, you know, Facebook, for example, would start launching their pages.

So I was lucky enough to be a native digital marketeer, if you wish, or a native digital, yeah, account manager, because we were all exploring at that point, if and how we could utilize all of this for our collaborations with brands and obviously with how could we push the content and so on. And then, funnily enough, a couple of years later, it was the financial crisis, then the publisher that I was having the magazine.

What was the name of the magazine?

It was called PLAS. I don't know why. Yeah, PLAS. And it had the sign of the PLAS. So it wasn't in letters. But think a little bit like a supreme kind of logo, but 20 years ago, right?

Not today. And I was actually collaborating with the photographer and the former at the time, editor in chief of VICE, because I had also worked with VICE in Athens. We had launched the magazine in the Balkans together.

What was the influence of VICE? I feel like I run into VICE all over the place without really intending to, but its influence was so far spread. What was it like for you to encounter VICE out in the world?

I think what drew me was, you know, when they were pitching or they were not pitching it to me, obviously, but, you know, the pitch for entering the market was investigative journalism, but from a cultural perspective. So really discovering the subcultures of a city, finding truly interesting stories with extensions towards maybe politics, maybe society, maybe economy, but maybe also nothing's just an interesting story to tell. And quite edgy photography, I would say for the time, right?

I will use the name Terry Richardson. I know it's not the same anymore, but please, you know, go back 25 years ago, 20 years ago, that was a different time. So really, you know, flash, very sharp photos. And yeah, they had, or we had, again, as an entity, they had the talent to discover these stories or make something out of these stories. And I think this is what was fresh and new and innovative. Like social media was not such a big thing back then. We didn't know how to navigate these platforms and still stories could find a space to exist for the wider audience through magazine.

So that was amazing. I really, really loved VICE. And I think naturally I tried to, in a way, mimic it. So that was the little magazine that was happening in Athens. And then exactly because of all this, because obviously one wants to make money and, you know, have a decent life. I think all this digital nativeness, right, through especially social media helped me take the next steps.

So in today's terms, I would say that I became a social media manager or a content creator for brands and for agencies. And then very randomly, I started working for an American agency. It was part of the Hearst Corporation called iCrossing. And they were running the whole content for social media for BMW and MINI in Europe. So I jumped into that wagon and then they invited me to do a tenure in Munich. That was my first official interaction with Germany. And this is when I also met my now husband. So I did that thing in Munich. I didn't like it. I didn't want to stay. It was different.

I went back to Athens. I did game tech for three years. And then Robin, my husband, said, come on, enough with the long distance. What do we do? And I said, fine, I'm going to come to Hamburg. So I moved to Germany and I think this is where I decided, you know what, you try different things. You have always been involved in storytelling in a way, right? Now is the moment that you need to focus. And I decided that the focus would make sense for me to be in the advertising world, right? Putting all my diverse experience still nurturing my curiosity and working for amazing brands. And this is what happened. .

Tell me about where you are now and what you're working on now, TWENTYRISING?

Yes, yes. TWENTYRISING. So Hamburg happened and then I think it makes sense to to connect the dots here. And then I got a call to move to Berlin and be at the newly set up media amongst agencies or another big thing happening. And I said yes. And this is where I met the team and my co-founders where we are now. So at some point after working greatly together, we realized that it was the work we were doing was moving towards the direction that we didn't necessarily believe it was the right one. And this has nothing to do with, I don't know, media monks.

I think it was more of an industry momentum where also we were finishing an era of very highly data driven data, harnessed performance, marketing, communication. So everything was data points. And all of a sudden we were missing a lot, you know, the storytelling, the big idea. And you could see already glimpses of that also in our big advertising, you know, network events can lions and work. We started talking again. Big CMOs were touching upon the importance of the narrative of the brand. Right. Because at the end of the day, what is it? It is all about communication between humans and finding that single truth that resonates with humans and make this truth famous in a way. And this is why we decided to leave our C-level careers in our very comfortable seats in the big networks and found 20 Rising. And we wanted to do that because, you know, we really love what we do and we want to make it even special.

What do you love about it? What do you love about the work? Like, where's the joy in it for you?

The joy is that, you know, when you are a communications expert, especially in the creative field. Right. You have this privilege of unapologetically speak your truth and speak your mind, obviously, in a structured manner or coming through research and insights. But this is the amazing thing. And then how can you take this truth and put it into a craft and give it bones and flesh and make it tangible and then send it off to the world? And I think this is what I love most experiencing by proxy and in every agency and mostly in my agency, having this ambition to, as we say at TWENTYRISING, to rise to the moment and the point where we believe a brand can make it and then think about it. So speak our minds, find the truth and then make something out of it.

Yeah. Do you remember what was your first encounter with the idea of brand, like the concept of brand or the potential of brand? Do you remember? I mean, you told your story, you know, in a way. But at what point did you realize a brand is the thing that I want to build or or interact with or?

I think from a very young age, because even though I work in this industry, I'm a marketeers textbook, I fall for everything, at least my initial reaction. So that sense of brand creating a culture or brand being the emblem of a culture for me has been very, very strong from, you know, the Nike shoes we were wearing where we're going to school that then turned into this super uncomfortable Timberland boat shoes, as an example. Right.

And this was a cultural signifier happening through a brand emblem. Either that was the logo or the product itself. And I think for good or for bad, this is part of our society, right?

This is what has been happening in our modern world for quite some time now. So being able to be part of this whole storytelling crafting, this is what intrigues me continuously, I would say.

Yeah. And how are things going? Like when people come to TWENTYRISING, what are they coming to you for? What do they ask? And what do you feel like they're struggling with the most these days?

Yeah, I think I think, come on, it's it is. The necessity and the desire for differentiation. I was watching because last year we did not TVC for the Super Bowl, but an activation. So I was looking into the campaigns or the great work as well. But I don't know how you think about it. It's very often that you fall in the sea of sameness. Right. And you see it not just in advertising, you see it all over. So I think what we want to be doing in a more special way is exactly this, to identify this truth that differentiates the brand. So they come to us for their overall campaigns and their overall 360 communication. And usually it's repositioning the brand or shifting, refreshing the brand, giving it a little bit of a wink and a twist. And I think this is where we're good at.

So, for example, what we did with Netflix, and I'm really proud about this case, is that they came with a Christmas brief. Right. Globally, but also in the dark region where we are in Europe, Netflix communicates only their content. And this time they wanted to do a Christmas campaign. And of course, you know, someone, when they read a brief of a Christmas campaign, they think a little bit of a tear and a little bit of joy and a little bit of a family moment. And we said, no, we're actually going to make your [gift card] the epicenter of the campaign. Like what? Who cares about the Netflix [gift card] of, you know, $10 or whatnot. But in Germany, I'm not sure if this is how it is in the US, you can buy this gift card, basically the Netflix gift card for in the train station, in the kiosk next door. So it could be a last minute gift.

And the insight, obviously, was that there is this generation in their 50s to 60s, that they are in the rural areas, they're not using so much Netflix, because obviously, they're not familiar with the technology, they don't know how to do it. They can't be bothered because they're used to linear TV. So basically, what we said is, okay, we're gonna target and the communication will be for the children that drive home or go to the parents. And instead of making it a, let me show you step by step how you log into Netflix. Here's a gift. Here's the card.

And obviously, the payoff for the children for the target audience was now you can have interesting conversations with your parents and avoid the awkward moments of when are you getting married? How was university? And you know, why are you still with that boyfriend or girlfriend of yours? And so and I think it was interesting, because, again, we tried to do it special, we brought the product into the brand communication. So it wasn't the intention to increase sales. No, it was a Christmas brand campaign.

But we managed to also do that. And of course, the guy who was responsible for the dark region for the vouchers was very happy with that, because they saw an uplift of I think, approximately 20% unofficial number. And obviously, it was a great story to tell. And on top of that, we also managed to have many Easter eggs in the actual TVC of, you know, the very famous content series and productions that they do. So it was a very nice combination of everything.

Yeah. What is the role that you mentioned? What's the role of research in your practice, if you can speak to that in the Netflix case in particular, and of course, I'm always interested in hearing in qual and how you? Yeah, how you research helps you?

Yeah, absolutely. And so obviously, it's funny, because, you know, one expects that a streaming provider will have data. And of course, they do, but not so much that on their own, they could build a case. So basically, what we tried, again, to look into was the cultural landscape, and find there the simple truths that could make the difference. And for example, we have the tendency of young adults traveling within the country more often during the Christmas holiday. So that was not necessarily part of the result, but it was part of the process that sparked the idea to us.

So what is happening when you go when you leave the big city, and you have to travel home, and you do it last minute, and you didn't have time to buy gifts? And how do you make it to your home? And what you're you're sitting on the train thinking, what are you going to talk about with your parents?

And, you know, in, in Europe, or in the region, you always have this, again, this element of estrangement between generations. So that was, for example, another element that was important and helpful as an insight to, to make us come up with the idea. And I guess, for us, strategy, and here are my strategy colleagues, is strategy is very important.

This is how we start any assignment, we want to create the framework, where, you know, our playground is within. And obviously, we use tools, research tools, but it's also I think, to live and breathe and how do you combine your personal understanding of the world with some data or some proof points that basically confirm your thinking?

Yeah. Yeah. How did you make the case for that shift? I mean, I imagine that being, I mean, they came to you wanting one thing, you talk them out of it. How did you talk them out of their own idea?

Yeah, I think this is a very good question. And first and foremost, I think that the other side should be willing to listen, right? And this is something that we tell to our partners, not because we want to show off, but exactly to set the scene straight, that if you're coming to us, you're looking for something that you cannot find within your own ranks within your own setup.

So let's talk about it. And let's be open to a dialogue and a conversation that really will help make the breakthrough. And in the case of Netflix, this is what happened. But I can give you a quickly another example of, I would say, an even more interesting case. We are working with a German bank, one very traditional financial union type of institution. And so you can imagine that their profile is quite conservative. And they wanted to do a B2B communication. So someone could argue, okay, a little bit dull, maybe not that exciting. And out of that, basically, we turned this into an elevator pitch communication.

So the brief required that we have to obviously address all the benefits and all the points of why a small, medium sized business would go to that institution to this bank. And we could do just leaflets and pamphlets and I don't know, banners for the website. No, we created on the contrary, a whole social media series, as well as a TVC that basically set the pace as it would happen on an elevator pitch. So very fast, very modern, very quick, very entertaining in a way, because we think also that entertainment and bringing this sense of joy and a smile is also important. Yeah.

I love how you talked, I felt like what I heard you say to the previous question was that anytime a client comes to you, there's the truth is they need something that they don't have themselves. So no matter what they're saying to you, you can always kind of speak to that. Is that what you're saying? And how does that change how you engage with them? Does that make sense?

Yeah, I think, you know, the mistake, the natural mistake that we as advertising agencies tend to do is because we're thinking we're selling services, that makes us, in a way, you know, servants. But, and also our business models and our commercial and pricing and remuneration models have sometimes this mantra, but I don't want to change the subject.

So however, how we approach this is, yes, of course, it's a service, but, you know, our thinking is a service. And it doesn't mean that we're necessarily smarter than our clients. We come from a different angle. We come with a different process and a different perspective. And this is why they need us. They need us to, to listen to them and come up with an approach and a big idea that can be then crafted and developed across the different communication points.

So, and this is a collaboration, but they, in an ideal world, they listen and they understand. And of course, it's on us to convince them. And of course, it's on us to prove in a way that what we're saying makes sense. But we see it. I just, just before this call, we, the team was presenting to a telecommunications provider and the idea won because it was again, another case of, all right, you want us to work together. You also need to come with an open mind.

Often in these conversations, I'm trying to get into a place where we're talking about how brands listen to their customers and listen to people. But here, I feel like we're really talking about how you listen to the client and how the client listens to you. Is there any, how do you approach that process? Do you have a way of thinking about how you listen or how to create opportunities for listening to your client or to brands?

Yeah, we do have a structure and our Rise, Think, Create model also applies obviously to an internal process. So it mirrors this. I think this has helped us a lot. So first and foremost, obviously it is all about getting to know the brand, getting to know the challenge, getting to know the opportunity. So we need the data, we need the information, we have the kickoff sessions. And then what we do, so we look inwards, right?

And then the next step is to look outwards because another, I think, common mistake is that brands tend to, when they identify the target audience, they tend to think what they believe that their target audience thinks for the brand. But that doesn't mean that the audience has the conversations about the brand. It can also be that they don't, they just don't.

So our next step internally is that we start looking outwards, what is happening in the universe that the brand wishes to be, and then where the brands at the end is. And this is what we present, trying to suggest how we close that gap. Because usually we see that there is a gap between what the brand perceives the audience is talking about and what really the audience is talking about.

So once we have set up that framework, then basically we have the creative brief at hand. And then this is where the creative team jumps in, creates essentially the strategic thinking into, formulates it into the idea. And then it is all about obviously how do we want to craft. And there are many times that we are trying also to influence the media budget, for example, because obviously when the perception of the brand is different to what the audience wants or talks about, then the media plan can also not be the right thing. So this is where also we bring the third parties in and we have a conversation around redesigning if needed. And then we go into creating, so crafting.

And at what point for you, how do you learn? Like how do you learn about the customer? How do you learn about how the brand is perceived? What are your sort of preferred methods?

What we like to do is, we call it internally 20 interning. I know it's like another word, but what we try to do is basically spend time next to the client. This can be, depending on the nature of the project and the relationship, this can be a few hours or half a day where we basically sit next to them at their premises and at their office.

Or it can even be a very, very short tenure of two days or one day or in the course of three weeks, three days, where we really sit next to them and understand how they're working, because it is also obviously important to understand how the company works internally. The second thing we do is called 20 interviewing. And we always do interviews not only with the marketing team, but also with, if we're talking about a company that produces goods with the production facility manager, the supply chain manager. If we're talking about an app, we talk to the channel owners. So, we really spend time beyond the brief, beyond the task at hand to understand how the company operates, because this is also an integral part of how we do the work.

And do you have any mentors or touchstones that you return to? This is a question I like to ask. Are there ideas or concepts that you kind of keep returning to in your work that sort of shape how you approach things or think about things?

Not probably in the way that you have it in mind, because for us, every time a new task, a new project is fresh from the get go. So, we approach it very open minded. And yes, I'm not against or we are not against reappropriation, but this doesn't really work for us. And even if naturally we would return into a similar idea that we would have had in the past, that would happen by coincidence and not by purpose. What we do though, because you use the word mentor, is even though when we opened up shop, I think we were naive enough to do it. What we definitely wanted to do is use the same words and understand the same thing and give them the same meaning. So, we do have a mentor who introduced us to the learning organizational principles. So, this is basically a systematic behavioral approach. It's not about becoming an academic institution, obviously. And that helped a lot to organize ourselves internally and set rules of how we work and be able to give the independence to the teams to work on their own. So, not doing all this micromanagement thing that we see very often. So, I think these principles, even though not directly connected to our product, but more to our ways of working with each other have really helped us accelerate our processes.

Is that Peter Senge? Is that what that is? The learning organization?

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Go ahead.

No, I was going to say, we obviously had quite a scholar doing this with us in Germany.

Wow, that's beautiful.

And how big is TWENTYRISING now?

TWENTYRISING is now almost 18 people. I say almost because in Germany we have all these long waiting periods. So, we have people signing contracts with that, but they're not yet with us. We're 18 and I think we will grow more in the coming months. So, it's been a two and a half year journey of crazy ups and downs, but resilience and, as I said, naivete helped push forward this, obviously, with the combination of the great work that we do.

Yes. How are things in Germany?

We have the elections in a couple of weeks or in a week. I would say that it has become a way tougher game field for our industry. So, budget distribution and market share are not that easy to grab anymore because the market is not really moving forward. However, I wouldn't say that there is necessarily a big shortage of money that would explain that. I think it's way more cautious steps and cautious moves. And this is why I think we, being nimble, quick, inventive, allows us to grab these opportunities in comparison to the bigger shops.

I think Europe is in an interesting moment also, economically or historically even. And I think the elections in Germany will shape the coming months, definitely, also for our industry.

Before we go, I wanted to return to sort of a first, I didn't ask the question up front, but what is it like being from Athens?

And living in Berlin.

Or just in general, what does it mean to be from Athens? I mean, I feel like I've, yeah, I'm just curious. When you're out in the world and you're from Athens, what is it like?

I think, so contrary to, I think, the popular opinion, I would say that Athens is more of a Middle Eastern city than a Western city. And at least in terms of people behavior. And I think that this gives me an amazing advantage because I am more fluid in a way, therefore, more adaptable, therefore, more inventive. And this is really living in the heart of the Western world, or at least in Europe. This really gives me flexibility and in that sense an advantage. I had to learn to hold myself back a little bit, because, you know, we are very, very open. We move a lot, we touch a lot, we kiss even strangers. So I had to learn to be a little bit held back.

And what is that like?

Being held back? I love Germany for many reasons. One of them is that it has brought a little bit of regulation to my chaos. And I really appreciate that. So I can experience the best of both worlds. I can still be myself because I decided when my Munich manager told me, no, you have to have a poker face and you shouldn't show emotions. I said, sorry, no, I will. I will. I will not going to hide this. But at the same time, this methodical way of doing things in this structure that sometimes, sometimes holds back. Personally, it really helps me.

Beautiful. Well, I want to thank you so much for accepting my invitation. I really appreciate it. It's been fun talking with you.

Absolutely, Peter. Thank you for suggesting that. I hope it was interesting. I loved it. And I'm really looking forward to making it to New York to your Breakfast Club soon.

Yeah, we would love to have you.

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