You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist 144. Scapegoat or Sacrifice? Nina Paley Reframes Group Dynamics & Cancel Culture
I had a fascinating conversation with Nina Paley, an animator, director, artist, and co-host of Heterodorx podcast. While some may know her award-winning animated films like "Sita Sings the Blues" and "Seder Masochism," our conversation delved deeper into her personal journey through cancel culture and her insights on scapegoating dynamics.
Nina shared how her life changed dramatically in 2017 when she spoke up about gender identity issues after a year of careful research and consideration. The backlash was swift and severe – she was banned from festivals, speaking engagements dried up, and her career as a celebrated artist effectively came to an end. What struck me most was her evolution in processing this experience, particularly how she's come to view it through a spiritual lens, despite not being traditionally religious.
We explored the ancient biblical concept of scapegoating, and Nina offered a compelling analysis of the difference between sacrifice and scapegoating. Through her research on Jesus Christ, she had a profound realization that helped her reframe her own experience – she could choose to see herself as a sacrifice rather than just a scapegoat, finding agency in a situation where she previously felt powerless.
Our conversation touched on the psychological dynamics of cancel culture, the nature of tribal behavior, and the powerful energies that get activated when communities unite against a perceived internal threat. Nina's insights about how people often only "punch up" at those they perceive as powerful gave her a new perspective on her own cancellation.
We also discussed her thoughts on artificial intelligence and its impact on artistic communion with audiences, leading to a poignant reflection on how the media landscape is rapidly changing. Nina shared vulnerably about the grief of losing her career and the ongoing process of accepting that the past cannot be recreated.
What I appreciate most about Nina is her ability to maintain perspective while acknowledging pain. Despite everything she's been through, she hasn't lost her capacity for nuanced thinking or her recognition of human complexity. As she put it, "Life is suffering, but it's not only suffering."
This conversation reminded me that sometimes our deepest wounds can become sources of wisdom, and that there's always more than one way to understand our most painful experiences.
Nina Paley is the creator of the award-winning animated musical feature films Sita Sings the Blues and Seder-Masochism. A 2006 Guggenheim Fellow and Free Culture advocate, she recently published the unexpectedly controversial comic book Agents of H.A.G. and the popular GENDER WARS Playing Cards. She regularly draws requests for Hundred-and-fifty Dollar Drawings. Her experimental digital projects include Apocalypse Animated and MysticSymbolic. A staunch proponent of Free Speech, Nina co-hosts the Heterodorx podcast with Corinna Cohn.
0:00 - Introduction to Nina Paley: animator, director, artist
3:12 - Early career success with "Sita Sings the Blues"
7:45 - The 2017 cancellation: speaking up about gender identity
15:30 - Copyright vs. copyleft: Nina's unconventional views
23:18 - Understanding scapegoating dynamics
31:45 - The biblical origins: sacrifice vs. scapegoat
39:20 - Family dynamics and patterns of scapegoating
45:30 - Finding agency in victimhood
52:15 - The power dynamics of cancel culture
58:40 - Grieving and healing processes
1:05:23 - AI and the changing media landscape
1:12:45 - Reflections on life and suffering
1:16:30 - Where to find Nina's work
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Show notes & transcript provided with the help of SwellAI.
Special thanks to Joey Pecoraro for our theme song, “Half Awake,” used with gratitude and permission.
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