Sam Harris speaks with Graeme Wood about recent events in Israel and Gaza, exploring the concept of jihadism, the Israeli government's involvement in religious extremism, motives behind acts of violence in the name of Jihad, the problem of jihadist ideology, sentiment towards the theocracy in Iran, comparing Iran to ISIS, and the double standards surrounding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Different moral logics at play between Israel and Gaza
Hamas' flexibility and focus on creating a Palestinian state differentiate it from ISIS
Concerns about a possible escalation involving Hezbollah and Iran in the conflict
Deep dives
Main Idea 1
The podcast discusses the recent conflict between Israel and Gaza and the complexity of the moral implications surrounding it. It explores the reaction to the events of October 7th, emphasizing the different moral logics at play between the acts of violence perpetrated by the two sides.
Main Idea 2
The conversation in the podcast delves into the ideological differences between various jihadist groups, such as Hamas and ISIS. It highlights how Hamas' flexibility in collaborating with Shia groups and its focus on creating a Palestinian state differentiate it from the more extreme positions of groups like ISIS.
Main Idea 3
The potential threat of Hezbollah and Iran's involvement in the conflict is explored. While Israel is currently focused on the situation in Gaza, the episode raises concerns about a possible escalation involving Hezbollah, which could drastically change the dynamics of the conflict.
Main Idea 4
The podcast addresses the challenges of finding a viable strategy to deal with Hamas, considering the possibility of a prolonged siege rather than an invasion. This strategy aims to minimize casualties and destruction but poses logistical difficulties and would require careful implementation to ensure the safety of civilians.
The importance of discrediting the jihadist project
Discrediting the jihadist project is crucial for creating a tolerable future in a pluralistic world with open societies. This involves both combating jihadists and making the jihadist project appear unattractive to Muslims. While progress has been made in diminishing support for jihadism, it remains deeply rooted in Islamic history and requires a long-term effort. The goal is to reach a point where the violent concept of jihad becomes as unappealing to Muslims as burning heretics alive is to most Christians.
Saudi Arabia's role in de-radicalizing the Muslim world
Saudi Arabia has played a significant role in reducing support for Wahhabi ideology and jihadist extremism. Under Mohammed bin Salman's leadership, the spigot of funding for Wahhabi mosques worldwide has been turned off, resulting in a decline of extremist forms of Islam. While important progress has been made in diminishing support for jihadism, it remains a long-term challenge given the historical significance of jihad in Islam. However, collaboration with Saudi Arabia and its shift towards a more moderate form of Islam could contribute to further de-radicalization efforts.
Sam Harris speaks with Graeme Wood about the October 7th atrocities in Israel, the unfolding war in Gaza, and the ongoing problem of global jihadism.
Graeme Wood is a national correspondent for The Atlantic. He has written for The New Yorker, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, and many other publications. He was the 2014–2015 Edward R. Murrow Press Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, and he teaches in the political science department at Yale University. He is the author of The Way of the Strangers: Encounters with the Islamic State.
