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Michael Hudson is Distinguished Research Professor of Economics at the University of Missouri, Kansas City and President of the Institute for the Study of Long-Term Economic Trends. He researches domestic and international finance, the history of economics, and the role of debt in shaping class stratification, among many other topics. This is Michael’s third appearance on the show. He was also a guest on episode 180, where he and Robinson discussed neoliberalism, industrial capitalism, and the rentier economy, and on episode 198, where they discussed Marxism, economic parasites, and contemporary debt cancellation. In this episode, Michael and Robinson talk about the history of debt cancellation in the ancient world—including Babylon, Greece, and Rome—how they helped to stave off economic collapse, how the failure to implement them contributed to the demise of these civilizations, and how they might be used in today’s economies. Michael’s most recent book is Temples of Enterprise (ISLET, 2024). This episode was recorded at Austin’s Ale House in Kew Gardens, Queens, New York, and comes highly recommended.

Michael’s Website: https://michael-hudson.com

Temples of Enterprise: https://a.co/d/a3c53dm

Austin’s Ale House: https://www.austinsteakandalehouse.com/

OUTLINE

00:00 Introduction

03:08 Michael’s Interest in Debt

08:23 Why Countries Can’t Pay Their Debts

12:14 Debt Cancellations in the Ancient World

16:51 Can Society Survive Forgiving Everyone’s Debts?

21:30 The Brilliance of Bronze Age Economics

29:19 What Happened When Ancient Harvests Failed?

32:04 The Timeless War of Creditors Against Debtors

37:49 Why States Should Print Their Own Money

41:11 How the Catholic Church Created the Modern State

55:50 On the Origin of Money

01:01:28 On the Economics of Ancient Babylon

01:07:17 Were Ancient Economists Better than Today’s?

01:09:09 The Most Important Prices of an Economy

01:11:39 Uncovering the Collapse of Babylon

01:22:30 Debt and the End of Civilization

01:24:58 Are Ancient Economics the Key to the Future?

01:30:33 Should the Government Forgive Student Loan Debt?

Robinson’s Website: http://robinsonerhardt.com

Robinson Erhardt researches symbolic logic and the foundations of mathematics at Stanford University. Join him in conversations with philosophers, scientists, historians, economists, and everyone in-between.

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