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The war between Iran and Israel is bound to determine the future of the Middle East and, possibly, the whole world.

The time is fitting, then, to release Shadi Hamid’s and Santiago Ramos’ conversation with Abbas Milani, professor of political science and Iran Studies at Stanford University. Professor Milani is a world-renowned authority on Iran, having published Lost Wisdom: Rethinking Modernity in Iran and The Shah, a definitive biography of Mohamed Reza Pahvalvi, the last Shah of Iran, among many other books. He joined us this past December to discuss Iranian politics, secularism and the future.

“A giant with a feet of clay, but with more staying power than some in the opposition think.” This is how Milani describes the state of the Iranian regime months before the war with Israel. The regime’s “base of support is fragile … has no unity of purpose,” and yet, “ten, fifteen, twenty percent of the population is [still] willing to go along with it.” It teeters on the brink of collapse while some international players, including Russia and China, “more or less” support it. Unfortunately, the regime faces no “cohesive opposition.”

Milani explores the future possibilities for Iran. Iranians want a secular democracy, he argues, and an “Islamic democracy” is not possible, he says, because “democracy is acceptance of ambiguity in the human condition.” Santiago and Shadi push back on this point. Santiago points to figures like Harriet Tubman and Martin Luther King, Jr., who embraced both religion and democracy, while Shadi argues for the role that reason plays in Islam. Milani counters that there can be an Iranian modernity — if not an Islamic democracy — and that a future Iran need not follow “the path of Atatürk.”

Our bonus section for paid subscribers will be useful to future historians of the Iranian revolution. Santiago asks Milani, “When did you stop being a Stalinist?” Milani discusses his ideological evolution. Milani talks about his year in prison — 1977 — where he shared the same cell block as many of the current leaders of the Islamic Republic. He talks about why he was arrested, what he read while in prison, why he wasn’t allowed to read the Koran in prison, and why it’s the case that “you understand the mettle of people very quickly in prison.” You will not want to miss this bonus section.

Required Reading:

* Abbas Milani, “Iran’s Incremental Revolution” (The Atlantic).

* Abbas Milani, The Shah (Amazon).

* Abbas Milani, Lost Wisdom: Rethinking Modernity in Iran (Amazon).

* The Islamic Golden Age (Wikipedia).

* Rūmī (Britannica).

* Clifford Geertz (Institute for Advanced Study).

* Leszek Kolakowski, Main Currents of Marxist (Amazon).

* Antonio Gramsci (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy).

* Richard Rorty (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy).

* Roberto Mangabeira Unger (Harvard Law School).

* Profile of Mahmoud Taleghani (New York Times).

* Mikhail Bulgakov, The Master and Margarita (Amazon).

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