KOL419 | Soho Forum Debate vs. Corey Deangelis: School Choice

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast: Episode 419. This is my Soho Forum debate held Aug. 21, 2023, in Manhattan, against Corey DeAngelis, of the American Federation for Children, moderated by Gene Epstein. I defended the resolution "Today’s school-choice movement in the U.S. is worthy of support by libertarians…" (taking the negative). Oxford debate rules applied which meant that whoever changed the most minds won. My side went from about 10 to 23 percentage points, gaining about 13; Corey went from about 45 to 64%, gaining about 19, so he won. I was pleased that we had an informative and civil debate about an important issue. (This is my second Soho debate; the first was KOL364 | Soho Forum Debate vs. Richard Epstein: Patent and Copyright Law Should Be Abolished.) My discussion notes are appended below. See also Reason.com article with video; Reason.com article with podcast. Results Today's school-choice movement in the U.S. is worthy of support by libertarians.                           Pre                 Post                Change Yes                   44.90%           64.29%            19.39% No                    10.20%            23.47%            13.27% Undecided   44.90%           12.24%            -32.65%   https://www.youtube.com/live/xZF-lT_1pag?si=nJVtVVz6FKsQ4wjv Update: "Gotta say [Kinsella] is right on this, I have done a 180 on this issue. After seeing how "school choice" has been implemented in Alabama, ... I see now it is exactly what SK has been saying. The program explicitly discriminates against the most productive taxpayers and just opens the door of my kid's expensive private school to the lower class dregs." I debated @DeAngelisCorey a couple years ago. I still oppose the optimize-educational-welfare movement, cleverly self-named "school choice", though it does seem to piss off the right people, for the most part. https://t.co/4D776Y96SM There was some talk of us redoing this in… — Stephan Kinsella (@NSKinsella) April 25, 2025 School Vouchers Were Supposed to Save Taxpayer Money. Instead They Blew a Massive Hole in Arizona’s Budget. (July 16, 2024) Related: Comments on the Youtube livestream Various comments on twitter: here, here, here, here. Rose City Catholics Fight for LGBTQ Rights—and Start a War With Portland’s Archbishop (July 5, 2023) Educational Scholarship Accounts Lew Rockwell, Education and the Election William Anderson, The Trouble with Vouchers Jacob Hornberger, “School Vouchers Are Anti-Libertarian,” Hornberger’s Blog (Future of Freedom Foundation) (July 5, 2022) ———, “More on Anti-Libertarian School Vouchers,” Hornberger’s Blog (Future of Freedom Foundation) (July 6, 2022) Bob Murphy Show ep 105: Corey DeAngelis Makes the Case for School Choice Jacob Hornberger Makes the Case AGAINST School Vouchers (with Bob Murphy — Bob Murphy show ep. 248) Tom Woods Show: Ep. 2325 Corey DeAngelis and Connor Boyack: The State’s Schools Are Beyond Repair Tom Woods Show: Ep. 2211 Corey DeAngelis on the School Choice Movement KOL112 | Jack Criss Interview on the Voucher System (1989) Kinsella, “Negates freedom of choice,” Letter to the Editor, The Morning Advocate (Dec. 21, 1988), and related correspondence related to the voucher system and school choice, 1988–89 (Note: Written in a more Randian “Objectivist” phase, and before I came to oppose voucher systems.) DISCUSSION NOTES Resolved: Today’s school-choice movement in the U.S. is worthy of support by libertarians A Soho Forum Debate Corey DeAngelis vs. Stephan Kinsella Aug 21, 2023 The Sheen Center, 18 Bleecker Street, New York, NY 10012 MAIN PRESENTATION – NOTES [15 MIN] So there are many ways to explain why intellectual property is illegitimate Oh wait, that’s the wrong debate Resolved: Today’s school-choice movement in the U.S. is worthy of support by libertarians. To answer this question, we need to understand what libertarians should support, and what “Today’s school-choice movement” is Libertarianism is a political philosophy that believes in individual rights to self-ownership and to private property ownership. In short, we oppose “aggression” So libertarians oppose a host of state laws and policies since they themselves commit aggression Such as taxation, war, the drug war, the central bank, and intellectual property (see, IP keeps coming up) Another thing almost all libertarians oppose is public education, more properly named government schools, or state schools, or educational welfare Why do we oppose public education? The three C’s: Compulsory attendance laws; Compulsory financing (by property taxes); government Control over the curriculum The first two are unjust because they involve aggression The third is only possible because of the first two It’s really a result of the first two This Control results in state propaganda and indoctrination be a good citizen believe in global warming and democracy sign up for selective service to fight in the state’s wars mask up, vaccinate, and lock down when we say so! And this predictably results in education that is Too expensive Inferior Full of indoctrination and state propaganda   So libertarians oppose public schools and support eliminating or reducing it, and moving to a private system We support separation of school and state Or education and state Just like we support separation of church and state If we had a state-subsidized church system, like some countries still do, and like the US did for decades after the Bill of Rights was ratified (“Congregationalism” in Massachussetts, for example)—would libertarians be arguing for improvements to this system by “introducing choice,” or would we argue for separation of church and state? This is Jacob Hornberger’s example Jacob Hornberger, “School Vouchers Are Anti-Libertarian,” Hornberger’s Blog(Future of Freedom Foundation) (July 5, 2022) ———, “More on Anti-Libertarian School Vouchers,” Hornberger’s Blog(Future of Freedom Foundation) (July 6, 2022) We would support reducing any of the three C’s: Get rid of or reduce compulsory attendance Get rid of or reduce school property taxes and funding of educational welfare Reduce government control But keep in mind that so long as the government is paying, there will be control “He who pays the piper calls the tune”   So what is “Today’s school-choice movement” It’s a broad attempt to improve public education by various means Vouchers, suggested by Milton Friedman in 1962, which can be used to go to another public school, private school, homeschooling, private tutors Public choice within the public school system Tax credits Educational savings accounts or educational scholarship accounts (ESAs) Tax funded Why should libertarians support this? Does it get rid of or reduce the Three C’s? Education is still compulsory Still funded by taxes What about Control? The state still controls the public schools, so there is still control of public schools And will have to put additional conditions on what private schools “qualify” for state funding So school choice would increase control Why did Hillsdale College have to stop accepting students using guaranteed student loans? To avoid federal control Just a couple months ago, the Archdiocese of Portland, Oregon, which runs 15 Catholic schools there, terminated a department that was insisting on use of preferred pronouns. The Archbishop declared that students in these schools will be addressed by their birth pronouns rather than their chosen pronouns Of course this caused an uproar If Oregon was funding all the students in these schools via a voucher program, would they permit state funding of a school that “misgenders” students? Would the Archbishop have taken the actions he did, if he thought it would jeopardize funding for the school? See Rose City Catholics Fight for LGBTQ Rights—and Start a War With Portland’s Archbishop (July 5, 2023) As for compulsory funding, or taxes In the current system, there is educational welfare for about 80%-90% of the students (those in public schools) In a full-fledged “school choice” system, now taxpayers have to fund 100% of students So educational welfare expands under school choice Would the cost of educational welfare, that taxpayers are compelled to fund, go down after expanding it to include private schools and private school students? Well have we seen college tuition go down or go up, in the last several decades, as a result of taxpayer subsidies via guaranteed student loans, the GI bill, etc.? To ask is to answer The term “school choice” is somewhat misleading It’s like using semantics to argue substance, much like in the abortion debate where abortion-rights advocates couch their position as “pro-choice” or “pro-life” Well who is against “choice”? Who is against “life”? This is much like how intellectual property advocates refer to patent and copyright, which are just state grants of monopoly privilege, as intellectual “property” to fool people into thinking IP rights are just normal forms of property I told you IP will keep coming up School choice advocates say things like “well rich people have the choice of sending their kids to private schools, why shouldn’t everyone have that choice?” Well, because it requires stealing money from taxpayers and giving it to parents You could say “Rich people have the choice to buy a BMW; why shouldn’t everyone have that choice?” If have the choice to send my kids to college, why shouldn’t everyone have this choice? Aren’t there people now calling for forgiving student loans and providing free college for all?