Jonathan Rauch, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and contributing writer for The Atlantic, takes the helm in an engaging discussion with Jonah Goldberg. They dive into the evolution of American conservatism, examining its pivot toward populism and the implications of horseshoe theory. The conversation touches on Goldberg’s intellectual journey, the impact of figures like Sarah Palin and Trump, and the struggle for integrity within a hyper-partisan landscape. Personal anecdotes shed light on the shifting identity of the GOP and the fate of traditional conservative values.
The podcast critiques the ideological transformation among conservatives during the Trump era, illustrated by the concept of 'pod people' who abandon their principles.
Jonah Goldberg's exploration of 'Liberal Fascism' reveals the complexities surrounding political labels and the historical ties between progressivism and fascism.
The evolution of media and technology is portrayed as a catalyst for populism in conservatism, challenging traditional ideological boundaries and gatekeeping.
Deep dives
The Concept of Pod People and Intellectual Integrity
The episode explores the concept of 'pod people,' referring to individuals in conservative circles who have shifted their beliefs in a dramatic way during the Trump era. This shift is likened to the storyline in 'Invasion of the Body Snatchers,' illustrating how some once-principled conservatives have adopted views that are starkly opposite to their previous convictions. The discussion involves notable figures like Lindsey Graham and Marco Rubio, who exemplify this transformation, raising questions about what personal and sociological factors keep some from succumbing to this 'pod virus.' The central theme revolves around identifying the internal structures and intellectual integrity that prevented certain conservatives, like Jonah Goldberg, from making drastic ideological changes.
The Impact of Liberal Fascism
The podcast reflects on Jonah Goldberg's book 'Liberal Fascism,' which aimed to debunk the misuse of the term 'fascist' in political discourse. Through his research, Goldberg sought to highlight historical connections between progressivism and fascist ideologies, examining how the left has often evaded scrutiny for its radical roots. The discussion leads to the recognition of Goldberg's intentions to clarify conservative principles, but he acknowledges that the mainstreaming of the term 'fascism' has backfired, resulting in its frequent use across the political spectrum. Goldberg's evolving perspective on political labels illustrates a growing complexity in how political ideologies are perceived today.
Horseshoe Theory and Its Evolution
Goldberg discusses the emergence of the Horseshoe Theory, which posits that the extremes of the political spectrum—the far left and far right—may share more similarities than previously thought. Initially skeptical of this idea, he revises his stance as modern American conservatism appears to adopt populist tendencies that align closer to the radical left. This shift raises concerns about the dilution of core conservative principles, leading to a blurring of lines between ideology and authoritarianism on both sides. The conversation indicates a recognition of the changing landscape of political thought and the necessity of guarding traditional liberal values.
Technological Influences on Political Movements
The podcast emphasizes the role of technology and media in facilitating the rise of populism within the conservative movement. Goldberg reflects on how the advent of cable news and social media has provided a platform for figures lacking substantive credentials, thus reshaping the narrative within conservative circles. He highlights how this new media environment has weakened traditional gatekeeping and allowed populist sentiments to gain traction, making it more challenging for established conservative leaders to maintain ideological purity. This evolution points to a significant transformation in how political discourse is conducted and how ideologies are propagated.
The Temptations and Challenges of Conservatism
The conversation delves into the personal ramifications of remaining committed to conservative principles in a shifting political climate, particularly regarding the affiliation with Trumpism. Goldberg shares his own experiences of social and professional alienation within conservative circles after openly rejecting Trump, emphasizing the risks involved in expressing dissenting views. The discussion touches on the broader challenge facing conservatives who prioritize ideological integrity over political expedience, highlighting the moral responsibility to model principled behavior amidst a tide of superficial populism. It underscores the importance of maintaining a commitment to substantive discourse over the allure of popularity and celebrity within political contexts.
Twenty-one years after Jamie Lee Curtis and Lindsay Lohan revolutionized the chick-flick with Freaky Friday, the powers that be have finally greenlit a remake. Fans were surprised to discover that the studio has taken a different approach to the reboot; this iteration of the film will feature two of the foremost voices in American political punditry, and will concern the intellectual history of one Jonah Goldberg.
Jonathan Rauch of the Brookings Institution has taken over Jonah’s role as host extraordinaire to flip the script and provide you, dear listener, with an understanding of Jonah’s intellectual journey throughout his career, ultimately hoping to understand how Jonah prevented himself from turning into a grifting, red-hatted pod person. Jon forces Jonah to revisit his first book, leading to an epic dive into the history of the American conservative movement, along with some hypothesizing behind its disappointing pivot to populism. Further lines of questioning from Mr. Rauch cast a wide net: Did Jonah pioneer horseshoe theory? Can we blame all of this on Sarah Palin? How did Jonah process the rise of Trump and prepare his defensive strategy? Was Jonah ever tempted to join the ranks of the sellouts? The host with the most who is no longer the host reveals all, including The Dispatch’s origin story, the final word on Hillary Clinton, and the hope that rests in the moral minority.
The Remnant is a production of The Dispatch, a digital media company covering politics, policy, and culture from a non-partisan, conservative perspective. To access all of The Dispatch’s offerings—including Jonah’s G-File newsletter, weekly livestreams, and other members-only content—click here.
