Brought to you by Nordic Naturals Ultimate Omega fish oil, Eight Sleep’s Pod Cover sleeping solution for dynamic cooling and heating, and AG1 all-in-one nutritional supplement.

Welcome to a very special episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, an episode that might be an example of peeking around corners and catching a glimpse of the future of mental health treatments in the next five to ten years.

My guest is Nolan Williams, MD (@NolanRyWilliams). Nolan is an associate professor within the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at Stanford University School of Medicine and director of the Stanford Brain Stimulation Lab. He has a broad background in clinical neuroscience and is triple board certified in general neurology, general psychiatry, and behavioral neurology and neuropsychiatry. Themes of his work include examining spaced learning theory and neurostimulation techniques, development and mechanistic understanding of rapid-acting antidepressants, and identifying objective biomarkers that predict neuromodulation responses in treatment-resistant neuropsychiatric conditions.

Nolan specializes in looking at cutting-edge treatments and new technologies that can be applied to treatment-resistant psychiatric disorders—so, treatment-resistant depression, disorders that are notoriously difficult to address, such as OCD, and many others.

Nolan's work resulted in an FDA clearance for the world's first noninvasive, rapid-acting neuromodulation approach for treatment-resistant depression. And I've tested this myself, and we get into this in the conversation. He has published papers in Brain, American Journal of Psychiatry, and Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Results from his studies have gained attention in Science and NEJM Journal Watch. He has received two NARSAD Young Investigator Awards, the Gerald L. Klerman Award, and the National Institute of Mental Health Biobehavioral Research Award for Innovative New Scientists.

We also discuss things like ibogaine that are seemingly unrelated to neuromodulation, as Nolan is very well-versed in multiple disciplines and in multiple toolkits, both pharmacological and non-invasive neuromodulatory. It's this combination, actually, this rare Venn diagram, that makes him incredibly interesting to me. I really enjoyed this conversation. I think it is very important, highly tactical, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

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[00:00] Start

[07:49] How SAINT helped Deirdre Lehman.

[13:59] Typical vs. atypical sequences of activation.

[21:00] Psychiatry 1.0, 2.0, 3.0.

[26:41] How SAINT (Stanford Accelerated Intelligent Neuromodulation Therapy) came to be.

[34:00] TMS vs. ECT.

[35:26] Rewards and risks of shortening treatment timeframe.

[43:43] Numbers treated and common side-effects.

[46:32] Patient demographics.

[49:51] Where to find current open trials.

[51:01] Observed benefits of SAINT over more conventional treatments.

[52:45] Adapting treatment when symptoms prove misleading.

[58:03] SAINT remission numbers versus those of alternative therapies.

[1:02:50] Delayed remission speculation.

[1:07:06] How Nolan became The Ibogaine Bachelorette.

[1:11:37] The origin of Nolan’s interest in ibogaine.

[1:12:40] Amazing results of the quickest-recruiting study Nolan has ever run.

[1:15:19] Dealing with alexithymia and self-reporting inaccuracies in research.

[1:19:41] Ibogaine research gets federal funding (approved since this conversation took place)!

[1:21:09] Isolating the ibogaine effect.

[1:21:49] The value of life review on ibogaine.

[1:25:56] How ibogaine differs from other psychedelic treatments.

[1:30:05] The challenge behind synthesizing naturally occurring compounds.

[1:31:54] Coping with ibogaine’s cardiac risks.

[1:39:37] Understanding habitual action through ibogaine, Ozempic, caffeine, and alcohol.

[1:45:43] Ibogaine for TBI.

[1:50:08] Ibogaine for alleviating opioid withdrawal symptoms.

[1:51:34] Ibogaine in Kentucky.

[2:00:59] Weighing ethics with potential outcomes in research.

[2:04:31] Can ibogaine be sourced (or synthesized) sustainably?

[2:08:24] Does 5-MeO-DMT complement ibogaine enough to justify its collection?

[2:16:48] What might Psychiatry 4.0 look like?

[2:25:12] Could we develop therapies to change hand dominance?

[2:28:08] Boosting performance.

[2:34:01] Parting thoughts.

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Past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show include Jerry Seinfeld, Hugh Jackman, Dr. Jane Goodall, LeBron James, Kevin Hart, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Jamie Foxx, Matthew McConaughey, Esther Perel, Elizabeth Gilbert, Terry Crews, Sia, Yuval Noah Harari, Malcolm Gladwell, Madeleine Albright, Cheryl Strayed, Jim Collins, Mary Karr, Maria Popova, Sam Harris, Michael Phelps, Bob Iger, Edward Norton, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Neil Strauss, Ken Burns, Maria Sharapova, Marc Andreessen, Neil Gaiman, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Jocko Willink, Daniel Ek, Kelly Slater, Dr. Peter Attia, Seth Godin, Howard Marks, Dr. Brené Brown, Eric Schmidt, Michael Lewis, Joe Gebbia, Michael Pollan, Dr. Jordan Peterson, Vince Vaughn, Brian Koppelman, Ramit Sethi, Dax Shepard, Tony Robbins, Jim Dethmer, Dan Harris, Ray Dalio, Naval Ravikant, Vitalik Buterin, Elizabeth Lesser, Amanda Palmer, Katie Haun, Sir Richard Branson, Chuck Palahniuk, Arianna Huffington, Reid Hoffman, Bill Burr, Whitney Cummings, Rick Rubin, Dr. Vivek Murthy, Darren Aronofsky, Margaret Atwood, Mark Zuckerberg, Peter Thiel, Dr. Gabor Maté, Anne Lamott, Sarah Silverman, Dr. Andrew Huberman, and many more.

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