Michael Levin part 2

Sep 25, 2025

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My second conversation with Mike Levin, the developmental biologist from Tufts University, where we explore his ontology, the structure of the world. Are we biological interfaces to Platonic minds, or bodies and minds co-create or realize each other? Is ChatGPT conscious? Are machines more organismic than we thought? How should we get ready to communicate with minds who are very different from us?

Related episodes:

Mark Solms: Mark Solms: https://youtu.be/Rltfm-vWvgM

Kevin Mitchell: https://youtu.be/nqxq-BiCr-M

Michael Levin: https://youtu.be/0nMXYdayQIU

Embodied AI: https://youtu.be/JZ8GTucClpM

Alexander Ororbia: https://youtu.be/N83vBfz7_BI

Yogi Jaeger: https://youtu.be/5UJ4y2L2qpk

Baudouin Saintyves: https://youtu.be/NmvzEpz9R84

Laura Desiree Di Paolo: https://youtu.be/9txUwVtAOBk

Anna Riedl: https://youtu.be/w2ZiSWZNQsg

Anna Ciaunica: https://youtu.be/x1QHwhlCn-8

Giuseppe Paolo: https://youtu.be/R7tEd65e2i8

00:00:00 Intro

00:02:22 Mike's Platonic turn. Patterns are calling the shots. Prime numbers and cicadas. Anthrobots. Let's study the structure of emergence.

00:14:55 Why not the Platonic and the "real" (Bard calls it pathic) realize each other rather than one creating the other? Towards more Darwinian forms? The engineering view: who controls what.

00:21:15 Do patterns have agency? Do they feel? Patterns are agents. Lot of "free" computation is happening in the Platonic space.

00:27:44 Can Platonic patterns die? Some patterns can survive the death of their physical instantiation. What is the ultimate drive if not persistence/survival? Similarity to Pageau's fractal ontology.

00:36:26 Is ChatGPT conscious? If they are, it's not because they talk but because they might have intrinsic motivation. It's not that we are machines, rather machines are also organismic. The free spurious modes in the structure space: the mystery of bubble sort and other structuralist arguments. The organicist argument of integration of the nested agents. Computer levels are separated, organismic layers are integrated.

00:52:49 How did your views changed your life? The urgency to communicate to minds that are very different from us.

I, scientist blog: https://balazskegl.substack.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/balazskegl

Artwork: DALL-E

Music: Bea Palya https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBDp3qcFZdU1yoWIRpMSaZw

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