A CIA Psychologist on the Minds of World Leaders, Pt. 2 with Dr. Ursula Wilder [SpyCast]

Mar 22, 2024

Dr. Ursula Wilder discusses psychology and intelligence, leadership assessments during the Cuban Missile Crisis, historical examples, and human nature in espionage. Insights into analyzing world leaders' hidden behaviors and communication dynamics between Spartans and Alexander the Great.

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Episode notes

Introduction

00:00 • 3min

Exploring Psychology and Psychiatry in Leadership Analysis

02:50 • 7min

Unveiling the Multifaceted Character of Charles de Gaulle

10:14 • 8min

Exploring the Complicated Relationship Between de Gaulle and Churchill during World War II

18:27 • 3min

Unveiling Hidden Behaviors of World Leaders

21:52 • 17min

Spartan Communication with Philip II and Alexander the Great

39:12 • 15min

Closing Remarks, Promotions, and Acknowledgements in the SpyCast Episode

54:16 • 2min

In honor of Women's History Month, please enjoy this episode of the International Spy Museum's SpyCast podcast featuring part 2 of Andrew Hammond's discussion with Dr. Ursula Wilder of the Central Intelligence Agency.

Summary

Dr. Ursula Wilder (LinkedIn) joins Andrew (X; LinkedIn) to discuss the intersections between psychology and intelligence. Ursula is a clinical psychologist with over two decades of experience working at the Central Intelligence Agency.

What You’ll Learn

Intelligence

How psychology can be useful to national security
Historical examples of leadership analysis
Leadership personality assessments & the Cuban Missile Crisis
Psychoanalytic theory and espionage

Reflections

Human nature throughout history
History repeating itself

And much, much more …

Quotes of the Week

“Together, these documents are quite powerful. The psych assessments are very, very carefully, tightly held and are classified at a high level. Every intelligence officer has this fantasy about seeing the file that's kept on them by the opponents.” – Dr. Ursula Wilder.

Resources

SURFACE SKIM

SpyCasts

Agent of Betrayal, FBI Spy Robert Hanssen with CBS’ Major Garrett and Friends (2023)
The North Korean Defector with Former DPRK Agent Kim, Hyun Woo (2023)
SPY@20 – “The Spy of the Century” with Curators Alexis and Andrew on Kim Philby (2022)
“How Spies Think” – 10 Lessons in Intelligence with Sir David Omand (2020)

Beginner Resources

What is Psychoanalysis? Institute of Psychoanalysis, YouTube (2011) [3 min. video]
Psychologists in the CIA, American Psychological Association (2002) [Short article]
7 Reasons to Study Psychology, University of Toronto (n.d.) [Short article]

DEEPER DIVE

Books

Freud and Beyond, S. A. Mitchell (Basic Books, 2016)
Narcissism and Politics: Dreams of Glory, J. M. Post (Cambridge University Press, 2014)
The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements, E. Hoffer (Harper Perennial Modern Classics, 2010)
Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln, D. K. Goodwin (Simon & Schuster, 2004)
Leaders, Fools, and Impostors: Essays on the Psychology of Leadership, M. F. R. Kets de Vries (iUniverse, 2003)

Primary Sources

Charles de Gaulle to Pamela Digby Churchill (1942)
Blood, Toil, Tears and Sweat (1940)
Memoirs of Ulysses S. Grant (1885)
Gettysburg Address (1863)
House Divided Speech (1858)
Excerpt on Cleopatra from Plutarch's Life of Julius Caesar (ca. 2nd century AD)
Plutarch’s The Life of Alexander (ca. 2nd century AD)
Appian’s The Civil Wars (ca. 2nd century AD)
Virgil’s The Aeneid (19 B.C.E)

Wildcard Resource

On Dreams by Sigmund Freud (1901)
In this simplified version of the father of psychoanalysis’ seminal book The Interpretation of Dreams, you can get a small taste for Freudian philosophy. Freud believed that dreams were a reflection of the subconscious mind and that studying a person’s dreams can elucidate their inner wants and needs. What are your dreams telling you?

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