Today Jim is joined by our colleague and fellow coach, Dr. Michael De Ruyter. Mike and Jim are facilitating a learning community for 10 pastors this fall and today's podcast is a conversation between us that we prepared for one of the gatherings of this group of pastors, the topic is systems thinking and how we utilize this way of thinking and highly complex and emotionally charged leadership situations.

We invite you to listen.

Conversation overview: - The mental model of systems thinking - Cause and effect thinking - What is a system? - Why systems thinking - How systems change - How anxiety shows up in a system - Recognizing anxiety in ourselves