The Reason Interview With Nick Gillespie

Veterans Are Suffering Because of Government Red Tape

13 snips

Nov 5, 2025

Guest

Jon Shenk

Guest

Marcus Capone

Marcus Capone, a former Navy SEAL and co-founder of VETS, champions psychedelic therapies for veterans after his own transformative experience with ibogaine. Jon Shenk, an Oscar-nominated filmmaker, shares insights from his documentary 'In Waves and War,' showcasing veterans using psychedelic therapy to heal from PTSD and TBIs. They discuss the challenges veterans face due to FDA regulations, the stark realities of war, and the importance of integrating therapy with psychedelics to foster lasting recovery. Their mission is to raise awareness and influence policy for better veteran care.

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ANECDOTE

From Superman To Wary Warrior

Marcus loved being a Navy SEAL and never wanted to quit despite repeated combat tours and fear in the moment.
He describes becoming more nervous over time as friends were killed or wounded, realizing he was not invincible.

INSIGHT

Veteran Struggles Are Multi-Causal

Veterans' post-service problems are often a mix of PTSD, subconcussive brain injury, endocrine disruption, and social isolation.
Marcus calls this combination a 'perfect storm' that can spiral veterans into severe dysfunction.

ANECDOTE

Filmmaker's Return To Afghanistan

Jon Shenk recounts filming in Afghanistan in 2003–2004 when there was genuine hope about building democracy.
He frames In Waves and War as a continuation of work documenting the country's unraveling and its human costs.

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The Reason Interview With Nick Gillespie goes deep with the artists, entrepreneurs, policymakers, and visionaries who are making the world a more libertarian—or at least a more interesting—place by challenging worn-out ideas and orthodoxies.

Today's guests are Oscar-nominated filmmaker Jon Shenk and former Navy SEAL Marcus Capone. Shenk is co-director, with Bonni Cohen, of the new Netflix documentary In Waves and War, which follows three former Navy SEALs as they use psychedelic-assisted therapy to deal with post-traumatic stress disorder and traumatic brain injuries related to their service.

Capone is one of the three main figures in the film. He first used the ultra-powerful substances ibogaine and 5-MeO-DMT in 2017 and is the co-founder with his wife Amber of VETS, a nonprofit that helps veterans access psychedelic therapies. He's also CEO of TARA Mind, a company seeking to expand the use of psychedelic-assisted mental health therapies for all Americans. He is featured in the 2023 Reason documentary Welcome to the Psychedelic Renaissance.

They talk with Gillespie about why so many veterans and everyday Americans could benefit from psychedelic therapy and discuss the challenges of depicting both the grim realities of war and the otherworldly experiences of tripping on ibogaine, which some call the "Mount Everest of psychedelics." They also discuss why the Trump administration and an unlikely bipartisan group of legislators may well help usher in an era of legalized psychedelics.

0:00—Introduction

1:40—The reality of war

10:34—Documenting war for film

21:05—The psychological toll of the Afghanistan War

31:23—Health care for veterans and ibogaine treatment

36:14—Amber Capone and the importance of veteran spouses

40:15—The psychedelic experience of ibogaine

44:16—Stanford University study on ibogaine

51:49—Visualizing the psychedelic experience

55:37—Legislative progress for psychedelic-assisted therapy

1:05:52—The work of VETS and TARA Mind

Producer: Paul Alexander
Audio Mixer: Ian Keyser

The post Veterans Are Suffering Because of Government Red Tape appeared first on Reason.com.