Saving The World By Trading With Virgil Hughes - 39

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Allen: All right, everybody. Welcome, Genius Nation. We have a special edition today. We have a video podcast episode, and I'm today here with Mr. Virgil Hughes, who is a full-time trader. I wanted him to get on the podcast to share his experience, to share his stories, how he got started, what he does, so that he can explain to you how he trades for a living.

But I also wanted, and what really spoke to me about Virgil, is that he mentioned that he uses his time away from trading to actually give back to other people in the world, and I wanted him to come on and share that message as well and to share with us what he's doing and how he's actually making the world a better place.

So, Virgil, how you doing today?

Virgil Hughes: I'm good. Thanks, Allen, and thanks for having me on. It's a pleasure to be talking with you and sharing your story as well.

Allen: Yeah, no, I mean I always love talking to traders and the students that come through our system. We've been doing this for a while now, so we have a lot of people that reach out to us and share their success stories. And I think that really, for me, that has actually given me more of a passion of giving back and helping out and sharing their stories as well so it's not just about me talking about myself but it's actually other people are doing well, and I want to share their stories as well.

Virgil Hughes: Good.

Allen: So that's why we're here. And so, Virgil, tell us, how'd you get started in trading?

Virgil Hughes: Well, it's a little bit of an odd story. I think I've always been engaged or interested in the financial markets, but I spent a career as a CEO doing turnarounds, and that was more than full-time. And at one point, I was diagnosed with cancer and-

Allen: Wow.

Virgil Hughes: ... had to step back and had tried to get back into the workforce and had a relapse.

Allen: Oh, my.

Virgil Hughes: Eventually, I just said, "I got to figure out something else." And so I started doing some trading in the futures market and then learned about options and so I traded half heartedly for a number of years while I did some consulting but in the last few years have been doing it full-time.

Allen: Okay. So, I mean, how are you doing health-wise now?

Virgil Hughes: Oh, it's long gone.

Allen: Oh, that's wonderful.

Virgil Hughes: Fortunately, cancer is a distant memory now.

Allen: That's great.

Virgil Hughes: [crosstalk 00:02:58]

Allen: I mean, I can imagine doing turnarounds, that sounds very stressful. I mean, I-

Virgil Hughes: Yeah, it's extremely stressful. You have a lot of people that don't like you.

Allen: So you were like the Richard ... What was he? Richard Dreyfuss guy in Pretty Woman? Was that him?

Virgil Hughes: No. Not quite. I can't think of a good cultural icon to compare myself to, but companies that got broken because somebody screwed up, I would come in and fix them.

Allen: And that would probably mean letting a lot of people go.

Virgil Hughes: Well, people get comfortable doing what they're doing, and even if it's wrong. And so I would have to help them see the light or help them see the door.

Allen: Awesome. All right, so what are you trading now? What are your specialties?

Virgil Hughes: Well, mostly just equities and options and combinations of equities and options. And I've, over the last year, been introduced to your crude oil trading process, and so I've done that as well. But mostly just combinations of equities and options.

Allen: Okay. And how much time are you spending doing that right now?

Virgil Hughes: Well, over the last six or eight months it's probably been, oh, half-time. Over the last four weeks, as crude has collapsed, it's been more than full-time.

Allen: Just watching the markets, right?

Virgil Hughes: Yeah. Typically, I can spend some time checking on the markets and the rest of the time doing what I do.

Allen: Right. Okay. And so how long did it take you to make that transition from dabbling in the market, learning about it, to going and saying, "Okay. You know what? I'm going to do this for a living [crosstalk 00:05:19] time"?

Virgil Hughes: Yeah. I don't think it's a matter of time. It's a matter of when you decide to do it. And what happened was I was running a chain of hospitals and felt called ... I just left and felt called to do the non-profit full-time, and that meant that I needed to have some source of income. And so I just took the knowledge that I'd gathered and just started doing it. [crosstalk 00:06:04] I think some people maybe their minds work differently, but for me, it was just a case of, "Okay, now time to get serious about this and do it."

Allen: So I mean, because a lot of people, they reach out and they say that, "Hey, I'm really hesitant or I'm really scared because I don't know what I'm going to fall back on." But I think it sounds like you found your why, you found your purpose, like, "Hey, I am going to do this thing, and nothing's going to stop me. And for me to get this, I have to succeed at this other thing over here, which is trading."

Virgil Hughes: That's exactly right, Allen. Yeah. You put it very well. I don't think I can elaborate on that. I found my purpose, and so this is how I'm going to get there.

Allen: That's awesome. That's awesome, because a lot of times, people, they don't know. And that's one of the things that we've repeatedly, we've told people, "If you want to get good at trading, it has to be done. If you make it a must," and this is Tony Robbins talking, but, "If you make something a must, then it's going to happen," right?

Virgil Hughes: Yeah.

Allen: And if you have your why, if you have your reason behind what you're doing ... because when it comes to trading, at the end of the day, how do you know if you're a successful trader? Well, you have more money in the account. And in the beginning, for people who don't have money, that sounds like, "Oh, that's going to be awesome. I'm going to have more money. I'm going to get to go out. I'm going to spend money. I'm going to buy stuff."

But then you get to a certain point where that's not enough anymore. And I see a lot of traders, in the beginning they do really well and their accounts grow, but then they get to that point where money is no longer the motivator, and they lose focus. They lose interest. And so then they have a relapse and they lose all that money, and then they start back over again and they grow.

So there was this one exercise that I read about in a book, for people who don't know their why. Basically, it was to sit down with somebody, like we're sitting here, just sit across from somebody that you know or that has your best interests at heart and just ask you a question like, "Hey, why are you doing this? Why do you want to get into trading?" And then whatever answer you come up with. "I want to make more money." Okay. "Why do you want to make more money?" "Well, because I got to pay my bills." Okay. "Why do you need to pay your bills?"

And then you just keep asking that. They just keep rephrasing what you're saying, and then just asking deeper, deeper, deeper, why, why, why. And it's a simple process, but if you do it right and you still go deep enough, you'll find something about yourself that totally blows your mind. When I did it the first time, I was like, "Oh my God. I never knew that I felt that way inside." And I think for you, it was a little bit easier because you found out right away. You're like, "Hey, I'm going to go do this non-profit thing, and nothing's going to stop me."

Virgil Hughes: Yeah, that's exactly right. For me, trading is simply a means to an end, and the end is outside of myself. It's not so that I can put more money in the account. It's not so that I can build a bigger house or something like that. It's so that I can get over to Africa more often or that I can bring on people who can get over to Africa more often, that sort of thing.

Allen: Okay. So I do want to talk about that, but before we get into that, can you give our listeners any advice or any tips or tidbits that you picked up over these years to help them on their journey as how they can get to where you are?

Virgil Hughes: With trading or-

Allen: Yeah, with trading.

Virgil Hughes: Okay. Wow.

Allen: Or it can be anything in life, generally, but mostly ... because most of our guys, they want to know, "Okay, how do I get to where Virgil is?"

Virgil Hughes: Wow. Well, the thing that comes to mind right now is, first of all, every trader is different and every market is different and every season of every market is different. And so you have to find your own style. You have to find what works for you. Maybe it's futures. Maybe it's an indicator that you know how to trade really well. John Carter uses The Squeeze. Somebody else uses this. Somebody else uses Bollinger Bands.

The best advice that I can give is be in the game and keep accurate records of what you do and what works and what doesn't. And eventually, something's going to click, and you're going to say. "Look. You know what? I can do this, and this works for me." And maybe it's Forex or maybe it's futures or maybe it's short options. Maybe it's long options. Maybe it's trading MACD. Who knows? Something at some point is going to click, and then it's stepping out of the boat. I mean, it's literally stepping out off the cliff and just doing it.

As you well know, Allen, when you take a position with a short put, you know that there's a possibility that that thing is going to keep going down, and you just have to get in there and do it. And I think, for me, I spent years buying different training programs and this person's advice and that person's advice and subscribing to different services, including yours. And at some point, you just have to say, "This is what I know. I know how this works, and I'm going to take responsibility for it."

As a friend of mine wrote, based on that movie, that Tom Hanks movie, he wrote to me the other day. He says, "There's no crying in trading." And that's right. You got to man up and just [crosstalk 00:12:42]

Allen: There's a lot of crying in trading. We might not admit it, but there is a lot.

Virgil Hughes: There is crying in trading, but we can't ...

Allen: Yeah. It doesn't make anything go away. It doesn't make it easier.

Virgil Hughes: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:12:55] got to man up and take it.

Allen: Right, so, okay. So it took you years, and you did all these different things. What did you find in the end that worked for you?

Virgil Hughes: What works for me, and I don't want to give specific trade type details because [crosstalk 00:13:17]

Allen: No, no, no. Just general. Just [crosstalk 00:13:18]

Virgil Hughes: Yeah, I don't want somebody to take my advice and say, "Oh, this works for Virgil. I'm going to go do this." But what works for me is [crosstalk 00:13:27]

Allen: Yeah, financial disclaimer here. Trade at your own risk.

Virgil Hughes: Yeah. What works for me best is a combination of selling short options around long positions and then with a smattering of other more exotic kinds of things. But you got to keep your position size small. Shorts, triangles, and BCT trades. I have not really gotten into butterflies and back ratio spreads and stuff like that.

Allen: Yeah, the very exotic strategies.

Virgil Hughes: Yeah. I know that people do them well. I explored at one point the ... you build a net with several different calendar spreads and stuff like that, and it looks intriguing as all get-out on the graphic chart on thinkorswim, but one strong move, and that's blown out of the water. You just got to learn risk management and how to adjust.

The trades that require a lot of adjusting really aren't good trades, and people will tell you that they make a living doing it. Bully for them. I'm glad for them. I got work to do during the day, and then I'm in Africa four times a year. I need simple stuff that I can put on and actually leave for a few days because if I'm without internet, I can't have my account be blown up. And I wish I'd taken that advice the last four weeks.

Allen: Okay, so I think what I'm hearing is that the base or the bulk of your positions are in stocks, in equities, and then you're selling foots against those?

Virgil Hughes: No. It would be in equities or very deep in the money [crosstalk 00:15:50] and then selling individual options or spreads around that position.

Allen: Okay. Okay. Yeah, we actually have something that I'm working on right now. It's called passive trading, the passive trading formula, and a lot of that is the bulk of it, really how do you set up trades? How do you set up your portfolio in a way that it only takes a few hours to manage it for a month where [crosstalk 00:16:20] still earn the money but it's just there regularly growing, growing, growing. So that's cool.

You mentioned BCT. For those of you who don't know, BCT is the blank check trade, which is our oil course. You can find more information about that on OptionGenius.com. Okay, so Virgil, you've mentioned Africa a couple times. What's that all about? Why are you going to Africa?

Virgil Hughes: I spent this time doing my work as a turnaround guy, and that's just hard work. And I always felt that there ought to be something else. And then when I got diagnosed with cancer, something clicked and I just said, "I got to think outside the box." I went to Africa on a church mission trip in 2012, and had always heard about the concept of micro lending, but ended up doing a bit of research on that before I went and was able to see some great examples of how a small loan helping somebody start a small business can make a huge difference in a person's life in an undeveloped country or an underdeveloped country. For us-

Allen: So this is microfinance you're talking about?

Virgil Hughes: Yeah. Yeah. For us, what would be pocket change almost for an American can help somebody in an under-resourced country set up a business and can make all the difference. So I ended up chartering a non-profit in 2014 after a couple of trips to Africa. And then in 2016, yeah, I left the hospitals that I was running and felt called to just do that full-time. And so that's what I've been doing.

We have a non-profit. We're federally tax ID'd, so we're a registered charity, and we have operations now in ... We're in four sites in Kenya. We're starting in the Ivory Coast. We're starting in Ethiopia, and depending on some negotiations, may be starting soon in Haiti and have been invited into even more countries than I've just named. So there's a huge need there, and it makes a huge difference.

Allen: So you're a US-based non-profit that is lending money directly, or are you going through a local intermediary?

Virgil Hughes: Yeah. Well, what we do is you have to follow the banking laws of the countries that you're in, and each one is different. And so normally, what we're doing is we're working through an intermediary in that country. That's an issue in and of itself because you got to find a trustworthy intermediary that's not going to make off with your money or charge you huge fees or something like that. But normally, our first effort is to find a good partner in that country that we can trust and through whom we can work and then begin the process.

Allen: Okay. So it sounds like ... because I mean, I've read Muhammad Yunus's book. He started this in Bangladesh, and it helped a lot of people. And I've given money with Kiva.org, and they do something similar to that where you can pick the loans and you can give it to certain people. And for those of you who don't know, micro lending is really, really small loans. What range do you give your loans in?

Virgil Hughes: Well, at this point, typically it's between US about 125 to US about 1,000. And I got a couple of pictures that'll blow you away, but I'll give you just one example. My very first trip, we spotted an opportunity among the-

Allen: Yeah, so if you have those pictures, let's put them up. Let's see.

Virgil Hughes: Yeah. Okay. Give me just a minute [crosstalk 00:21:31]

Allen: Cool. Sure. Yeah, no problem.

Virgil Hughes: ... some pictures and ... Hang on.

Allen: Yeah. So from what I know, there's this guy, Muhammad Yunus, in Bangladesh who was a professor, and he found that there were women in the main city there of Dhaka or in the little towns where they were trying to make, I think, baskets or something. But for every basket, they got paid very little for the actual amount of work they were doing because there were so middlemen. And so the idea was he found one lady and he said, "I'm just going to give you the money that you can go and skip all the middlemen." And it really changed her life.

And one thing I'm going to ask you, Virgil, is how do you make sure that they give you the money back? Because in the Grameen Bank, which is Muhammad Yunus's organization, they have it where the women, they form a group, and then each woman is responsible to make sure the other women pay back the loan.

Virgil Hughes: Yes. First of all, can you see my screen here?

Allen: Yes. Yes, I can.

Virgil Hughes: It should show two stories. And this is a very poignant story. The little guy you see on your left is a little kid that I met in an orphanage in the hill country of Kenya. And he was in the orphanage because his mom disappeared. His father had passed, and his mom was struggling to take care of him, to provide. There's not a lot of jobs in the mountains of Kenya, and she was praying with her pastor every week and stuff like that. She got a job offer from a company in the Middle East.

Allen: Wow.

Virgil Hughes: And they told her, "Well, leave your son with some friends or relatives. Come out. Get established, and then when you're established and comfortable, you can send for your son." So she did, and they never saw her again. And they did get a couple of calls that were cut off within 30 seconds, and they came to the conclusion that she'd been kidnapped and trafficked by the people that-

Allen: Oh, no.

Virgil Hughes: It was a false offer, and it was just a sham. And she's probably been trafficked into the sex trade.

Allen: Oh, boy.

Virgil Hughes: And so the other picture there, the woman with the sewing machine, similar story. Her husband left. She's got four boys, but because an American gave $125 for a sewing machine, she has a small tailoring business, and she's able to support her family. What's $125 to you and me? That's $10 a month.

Allen: Yeah, that's nothing. It's a dinner. Not even.

Virgil Hughes: Not even a dinner, but this woman has built a business with it. And that's what happens. That's the promise or the opportunity from this kind of small lending. You had asked a question too about how do we get the money back. Yeah, well, Muhammad Yunus was a genius in more ways than one, and we do exactly what he did. We help set up what we call ... The technical term in the industry is a savings and credit association, and I'm going to go here. Here's a good example.

We help people set theirs up. It's actually like a homegrown credit union where it's 15 to 30 people getting together to save together, to be responsible together for each other. They learn to take out loans from the group and pay back the group. We use those groups as a springboard for training where we teach them about good money management. We teach them about some business skills and perspectives. And Yunus actually didn't go that far. He made the group responsible for the loan.

We and some others have taken it a step further and we're actually providing training within the group. And what we discovered is that the training is more of a life-changing thing than actually the small loans because only about 20% of the people will take out a loan, but the training affects everybody, and everybody learns from it.

Allen: Okay. So the small group, it's not just loan holders but just anybody who's interested in learning?

Virgil Hughes: Right. Exactly. So, like I said, we've taken the concept that Muhammad developed and tweaked it a little bit. And, like I said, an easier term is a self-help group, and like a little credit union where it's owned by the people. They're saving together, but they also help each other. They can give loans to each other from the group without ever coming to us. It serves as a social insurance. If somebody gets sick, breaks a bone, something like that, the group can step in and help them.

So, like I said earlier, our process is three parts. One is helping them set up a self-help group. Two is providing some key training, and then three is the micro loan.

Allen: So the loans are given from you guys or from amongst themselves, like they pool their money and then they share it?

Virgil Hughes: Yeah, both.

Allen: Both.

Virgil Hughes: We encourage them to lend to each other, and then we also we teach them business principles. We teach them how to develop a business plan. We teach them how to assess their product in their market. We teach them how to assess the market itself. And then we insist that they put together a small business plan. And we're not talking about a Wharton MBA here. [inaudible 00:28:28] about some basic principles that have been structured to be at this level, and the same thing. We're not looking at a 50-page business plan, but we are looking for people to think through their business and their process and then get the advice of their group. Then the group submits it to us, and we'll look at it.

Allen: That's awesome. It says here on the slide, it says, "Our goal," of your organization, which is NewVines International, your goal is, "One million adults in self-help groups hearing the gospel, praying together, receiving business skills and training, and providing for their families by 2028."

Virgil Hughes: Yeah, that's correct.

Allen: Okay, so now I got to ask you. How many have you gotten to?

Virgil Hughes: Well, that's a fair question. What we've found is that the best way to achieve that goal is not to just go out and try to set up small groups. What we're finding is that the best way to achieve that goal is to develop effective relationships with leaders in different countries. And so we end up doing what I call train the trainer, and so we will train a group of leaders to go out and work within other churches and community ministries to essentially expand the network.

Hang on a minute while I flip through some ... Here we go. So here is a group of trainers in the mountain country of Bomet. They have graduated our program and ... I'm sorry. The mountain country of Kenya. They graduated our program, and each of them will be responsible for reaching out to between six and eight different churches. Then over on this side, this is about a dozen people from Western Kenya representing a whole group pulled together by an NGO, which is the equivalent of a non-profit in a foreign country.

And this happens to be an orphanage/medical clinic ministry. But it serves as a center to pull together a group from about six or eight local denominations. And so these guys, we're training them to go back to their denominations and each one would then be working with anywhere from six to 20 different churches. So our first goal is not to just go out and set up a bunch of groups. Our first goal is to find leaders and train trainers to go out to train other trainers.

Allen: That's awesome. That's great. So it's building upon itself, because once you're in the field, then they'll just keep passing on their information and their knowledge and it'll just get bigger. That's awesome. Now from what you said earlier, you were saying that you trade for a living, so you trade to pay your expenses and your bills, and then while you had your position with the hospital company, that's when you started this organization, right, this charity, this foundation?

Virgil Hughes: Right. Yeah.

Allen: And so you funded it yourself, and now you're at the pace where you're able to accept more ... because it seems like you're doing a lot of work, so it would be pretty hard for just one person to fund it. So you're seeking donations, and you're opening it up to more people. Is that correct?

Virgil Hughes: Yeah.

Allen: Because I've just recently a couple weeks ago I was looking into starting a foundation myself, and there are different ways to do it. There's different structures. There's the charity, and then there's the private foundation and then there's the family foundation and all different ways. Some of them can accept donations. Some of them cannot. But yours can?

Virgil Hughes: Yes. Ours is a 501(c)(3), which is classified by the IRS as a public charity. So we can accept donations and do accept donations. They're tax deductible, and so we have a level of accountability as well to the US government. Actually, technically it's to the attorney general of the state in which we're chartered. But yeah, we accept donations, and like I said, I pay my own bills through the trading, and then the donations that we get are ... We call them partners. Our partners fund the travel and training that we do.

Allen: Okay. Yeah, because a large part of most charities that I've seen is human resources, is marketing, administrative work. And I have a friend that she works for an NGO, and I was talking to her and I was like, "Hey, I'm thinking about starting my own foundation. I'm just learning about it. You already have experience in running one of these. Would you be interested in running mine, because I don't know what to do with it. I'm just going to fund it." And she goes, "Yeah, I'll run it." And I'm like, "Okay, how much money do you make doing that? How much do I have to pay you and whatnot?"

She gave me a figure like mid ... not mid six figures, but it was over six figures. And I was scratching my head. I'm like, "Every dollar I give to you doesn't go to the people that we're trying to help, right?" And she's like, "Yeah, but I'm worth it, and I deserve it because I'm doing a great job," and this and that. And I was like there's a total disconnect right here between ... There's the employee mindset and then there's the employer mindset and just totally different disconnect. So what you're doing is basically you're not taking a salary. You're not taking any money out of this organization-

Virgil Hughes: Correct.

Allen: ... because all your expenses are paid for by the trading, which is awesome, which is a great way to do it.

Virgil Hughes: Yeah. That's correct. Yeah, so every dollar that we get in helps me either get over there and do training or goes into the loan fund, with the exception of about 2%. I still have a website up. I still have to have an audit at the end of the year. I still have to, from time to time, buy a new computer and stuff like that. So there's a fractional amount of what I would call administrative costs [crosstalk 00:36:06] and things like visas. You got to get a visa every time you go and that sort of thing. So there's some administrative costs, but-

Allen: You got to get your shots.

Virgil Hughes: Shots. Yeah, that's another one.

Allen: Yeah. It's part of the job, right?

Virgil Hughes: Yeah.

Allen: So let me ask you. Now, from what I learned, most charities and organizations, they are required ... To stay a charity, they have to give away at least 5% of their assets on a yearly basis in order to maintain their 503c charter. And then with the rest of the money, they can actually invest it. So are you actually trading the money that you-

Virgil Hughes: No. No, I would never. I talked about being a turnaround guy. All of that was in the non-profit world until my very last job was running a for-profit hospital chain. I would never trade money that's given to a charity. In fact, there's actually some IRS rules about that in terms of the ways that you can invest that money. And I think trading would be a clear violation of the IRS rules about that.

Allen: Oh, really? Okay.

Virgil Hughes: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Allen: All right. What is your website so that people can find out more information?

Virgil Hughes: Sure. It's www.newvinesintl.org. So that's N-E-W-V-I-N-E-S-I-N-T-L dot O-R-G.

Allen: Okay, and that's NewVines International if you want to search it online. You'll be able to find them. Cool. Virgil, anything else? You have any other advice for our listeners?

Virgil Hughes: I wish I did have something that was insightful and would catapult people forward, but unfortunately, I don't, Allen. It's just plugging away, keeping at it, and eventually something clicks. I guess the advice would be just that. Keep at it. And there are going to be hard times, and financial markets can knock your socks off. But part of trading is to get back up and go at it again and keep your account size small or your-

Allen: Your risk small.

Virgil Hughes: ... position size, your risk small. Yeah.

Allen: Yeah, I mean, it's just something that I talk about a lot, and it's like you don't need 100 different things to work. You need one to work. You just need that one thing, like you said earlier, the one thing that you find that you're good at, and then you just keep doing it and you keep doing it and you keep doing it instead of looking for 15 different ways to trade, 15 different strategies to work out.

You find one thing that works that fits your risk tolerance, that fits your temperament, how much money you have in your account, and even how much you want to trade. If you want to sit in front of the screen all day, then yeah, you can day trade, but then you won't be able to do stuff like this. If you're more of a passive trader, more of an options seller, then you can still earn enough money to survive and to live a decent life, live a good life, and then with the rest of your time, you can go and help other people, which is amazing.

And it's something that I've always wanted to do, but unlike you, I never felt that strong enough urge to say, "All right. I'm ditching all this stuff, and I'm just going to go do it." So that is awesome, and I think you're leading by example. So if there's anybody out there that wants to do what Virgil is doing, I think I'm pretty sure that if you reach out to Virgil ... He's also on Facebook, if you want to reach to him there. I'm sure he'll help you and guide you and say, "Hey, you know what? Try this or go in this direction or whatnot."

It's been a pleasure to talk to you, my friend.

Virgil Hughes: Yeah. Glad to. If anybody wants to reach out, I'm here. Facebook, Virgil Greg Hughes. And I got to say it's been a wonderful journey. This is where life is at is getting beyond yourself and doing something good in the world.

Allen: Yep. Yeah, it is. I mean, it's more than just leaving a legacy, because I mean, we talked about this earlier. After you get to a certain point where it's like, "Okay, I've made enough money. Now what?" People ask me all the time. "Allen, why do you have Option Genius, and why are you doing all this stuff? If you're so rich or you're doing so well trading, why don't you just go live on a beach in Hawaii or something?"

I was like, "Yeah, you could, but after a while, you get bored and actually you want to help other people. You want to give back."

Virgil Hughes: [crosstalk 00:41:22] it still becomes kind of empty if you do that. Yeah.

Allen: Yeah. Yeah. There's only so many pina coladas you can drink. All right. All right, folks. Well, we appreciate you tuning in. like I said, contact Virgil if you have any questions, and we'll see you on the next episode.

Virgil Hughes: Good. Allen, thanks so much. It's been an honor to be with you.

Allen: Thank you, Virgil, for having us.

Virgil Hughes: Take care.

References:

NewVines International, Inc.

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