The Classical Mind Lilith
Jan 20, 2026
Fr. Wesley Walker and Dr. Junius Johnson dive into George MacDonald's fantasy novel, Lilith, discussing its mix of gothic elements and spiritual themes. They critique MacDonald's unique style and explore his universalist ideas, focusing on the transformative role of 'evil that is good for you.' The conversation highlights Lilith's allegorical journey and connections to C.S. Lewis, while also reflecting on the significance of sleep as prayer. The hosts examine themes of redemption, dualities, and the call for readers to embrace hope and a deeper connection to the supernatural.
01:23:42
Hosts' Personal First Encounters
- Dr. Junius Johnson first read Lilith around high school and found it influential though fuzzy in memory.
- Father Wesley Walker read it fresh and enjoyed discovering its power on first encounter.
Gothic-Fantasy As Spiritual Journey
- Lilith blends Gothic framing with old-school fairy fantasy to create a unique spiritual journey.
- The literal and allegorical levels collapse so the other world reshapes the protagonist's soul.
Lewis's Mixed Appraisal Matters
- C.S. Lewis praised MacDonald's holiness but criticized his uneven literary style.
- Both hosts initially bristled but later conceded Lewis's point while defending the book's spiritual power.
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Intro
00:00 • 23sec
Hosts' personal histories with Lilith
00:23 • 2min
C.S. Lewis's introduction and literary critique
02:41 • 5min
MacDonald’s style: strengths and flaws
07:25 • 1min
Genre blending: Gothic and fairy fantasy
08:50 • 3min
MacDonald's influence on C.S. Lewis
11:48 • 2min
Dreamlike structure and allegory
14:09 • 4min
Worldbuilding: mapped fairyland versus fluid fairylands
18:32 • 3min
The Raven and the theme of sleep
21:24 • 1min
Sleep interpreted as prayer and transformation
22:41 • 5min
Raven's cryptic wisdom and clarity later
27:55 • 4min
MacDonald’s universalism and evil’s role
32:23 • 6min
Microcosm, macrocosm, and at-one vision
38:07 • 2min
Lilith: mythic background and redemption goal
40:23 • 6min
Dualities: Lona, Mara, and leopard imagery
45:56 • 2min
The little ones and giants: innocence vs. worldliness
47:27 • 11min
Returning changed: lessons for our world
58:43 • 46sec
Hope, longing, and reinterpretation of experience
59:29 • 3min
Forgetting as healing and Dante parallels
01:02:14 • 7min
Mara's bitterness and the house of Adam and Eve
01:09:06 • 3min
Mara persuading Lilith: identity and the creating light
01:11:42 • 4min
Lilith's clenched hand and spiritual surgery
01:15:54 • 8min
Outro
01:23:30 • 10sec
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Inferno is the first part of Dante Alighieri's epic poem, The Divine Comedy.
It describes Dante's journey through the nine concentric circles of Hell, each representing a different level of sin and punishment.
Guided by Virgil, Dante encounters various historical and mythological figures, witnessing their punishments which are symbolic of their sins.
The poem is an allegory of the soul's journey towards God, with Inferno representing the recognition and rejection of sin.
Dante's journey through Hell is also a personal and spiritual exploration, reflecting his own struggles and the political and social issues of his time.
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Published in 1847, 'Wuthering Heights' is a novel that tells the story of the tumultuous relationship between Catherine Earnshaw and the foundling Heathcliff, whom her father brings home to Wuthering Heights.
The narrative, framed by the visitor Lockwood and the housekeeper Nelly Dean, explores themes of love, revenge, and the cyclical nature of life.
Heathcliff's bitter vengeance against those who wronged him drives the plot, which spans generations and delves into the dark, passionate, and often destructive aspects of human nature.
The novel is renowned for its dramatic and poetic presentation, its unique structure, and its vivid depiction of the Yorkshire moors as a reflection of the characters' inner lives.
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The story follows a king and queen whose daughter is cursed by the king's sister, Princess Makemnoit, to have no gravity.
The princess floats constantly and never cries.
She finds temporary relief from her condition when swimming.
A prince from another country falls in love with her and volunteers to sacrifice himself to restore the lake that is her only source of gravity.
Through his sacrifice and her subsequent tears, the curse is broken, and the princess regains her weight.
The tale explores themes of love, sacrifice, and redemption.
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C.S. Lewis
In 'The Great Divorce', C.S.
Lewis presents an allegorical narrative where souls from a gray, dreary town (representing hell) are given the opportunity to visit heaven.
The story follows the narrator and various ghosts as they encounter spirits in heaven, engaging in dialogues that reveal the nature of their choices and the reasons they remain in hell.
The book emphasizes that hell is a self-imposed state, and individuals choose to remain there due to their inability to let go of their earthly attachments and sins.
Through these encounters, Lewis explores themes of redemption, the afterlife, and the importance of spiritual choices, underscoring that true joy and salvation are available to those who seek them sincerely.
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George MacDonald
"Phantastes" by George MacDonald is a Victorian-era fairy tale that follows Anodos, a young man who journeys into a mystical realm filled with allegorical landscapes and encounters.
The story explores themes of self-discovery, spiritual awakening, and the battle between good and evil.
Anodos undergoes a series of transformative experiences that challenge his perceptions and force him to confront his inner demons.
MacDonald's rich symbolism and dreamlike prose create a landscape where the boundaries between reality and imagination blur.
Through Anodos's journey, the novel explores the importance of embracing beauty, confronting darkness, and seeking a deeper understanding of oneself and the world.
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Lilith
George MacDonald
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Augustine of Hippo
Written between 413-426 CE, 'The City of God' is a response to pagan claims that the sack of Rome by barbarians was a consequence of the abolition of pagan worship by Christian emperors.
Augustine argues that Christianity saved the city from complete destruction and that Rome’s fall was due to internal moral decay.
The book divides humanity into two metaphorical cities: the City of God, characterized by devotion to God, and the City of Man, characterized by self-love.
It also outlines Augustine’s theological interpretation of human history, from the Creation to the Second Coming of Christ, and critiques paganism and pagan philosophy while presenting the true history of the City of God.
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The golden key
George MacDonald
The Golden Key, first published in 1867 as part of George MacDonald's story collection *Dealings with the Fairies*, is an allegorical fairy tale.
The story follows a young boy named Mossy who finds a golden key at the end of a rainbow and embarks on a journey to find the keyhole it fits.
Along the way, he meets a girl named Tangle, and together they navigate through shadowy valleys and mountains, guided by the Old Men of the Sea, Earth, and Fire.
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Horace Walpole
Published in 1764, 'The Castle of Otranto' is considered the first Gothic novel.
The story revolves around Manfred, the lord of the Castle of Otranto, whose son Conrad is killed by a giant helmet on the day of his wedding to Isabella.
This event triggers a series of supernatural occurrences and human tragedies, driven by an ancient prophecy that threatens Manfred's lineage.
The novel explores themes of horror, fate, and the fragility of human connections, blending medieval and modern literary motifs.
It was initially presented as a translation of an ancient Italian manuscript but was later acknowledged as a modern creation by Walpole.
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The princess and the goblin
George MacDonald
Published in 1872, this novel is one of the first in the modern fantasy genre.
It tells the story of Princess Irene, who lives a lonely life in a castle with her nursemaid, and Curdie, a young miner.
Irene discovers a magical world through her great-great-grandmother, who is invisible to others.
Together, Irene and Curdie thwart the goblins' plans to abduct the princess and flood the mines.
The story emphasizes themes of faith, bravery, and the importance of believing in what is invisible.
The novel is known for its imaginative and innovative ideas, beautiful descriptions, and its influence on later fantasy writers.
#422
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The Lion, The witch and the Wardrobe
C.S. Lewis
The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe is a portal fantasy novel that follows the story of four English siblings - Peter, Susan, Edmund, and Lucy - who are evacuated to the countryside during World War II. While exploring the large, old house of Professor Kirke, Lucy discovers a wardrobe that serves as a portal to the land of Narnia.
In Narnia, they encounter various magical creatures and the evil White Witch, who has cast a spell to keep Narnia in perpetual winter.
The siblings soon learn that they are part of an ancient prophecy to save Narnia, aided by the lion Aslan.
The story is an allegory of Christianity, with Aslan's sacrifice and resurrection mirroring the story of Jesus Christ.
The novel also incorporates elements from Germanic, classical Greek and Roman, and Celtic mythology.
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The Magician's Nephew
C.S. Lewis
The story follows Digory and Polly, two children who meet while exploring the attics of their adjacent homes in London.
They stumble upon Uncle Andrew's study, where they are tricked into using magical rings that allow travel between worlds.
Their adventures take them to the desolate world of Charn, where they awaken the evil queen Jadis, and eventually to the creation of Narnia by the lion Aslan.
The novel explores themes of creation, good vs.
evil, and redemption as Digory and Polly navigate these new worlds and their consequences.
In this episode of The Classical Mind, Fr. Wesley Walker and Dr. Junius Johnson explore George MacDonald’s 1895 fantasy novel, Lilith. The discussion navigates the tension between MacDonald’s occasionally “fumbling” literary style and the profound, “mythopoeic” power of his spiritual vision. The episode also touches on MacDonald’s universalist leanings and his belief that even “evil that is good for you” acts as a redemptive force. Ultimately, the episode highlights how Lilith challenges readers to move beyond a dry love of books to a lived experience of the supernatural reality they represent.
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Endnotes:
* Junius: Phantastes by George MacDonald
* Wesley:
Our Next Work: Inferno by Dante Alighieri
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