(Reposted) JC Cassis on friendship in adulthood etc.

I got some feedback that the version of this episode I originally put up was too quiet, so I’m posting it again! Apologies for the duplication—I’m still figuring out this podcasting thing.

You can find JC Cassis at jccassis.com, and can check out her own podcast, Risk.

We cover a bunch of topics, including friendship in adulthood, what we owe each other, and a little about parenting.

Divia (00:01.721)

Hey, so I'm here today with my friend, JC. And I like to say that we went to school together and if people are like, like you mean like what? And I'm like, no, all the school we went to school together, starting in kindergarten through senior year of high school. And then we also went to college together. Yeah, it's yeah. Though, as we sometimes say, you were in the other class in kindergarten. really more like 16.

JC (00:02.589)

Hey.

JC (00:20.116)

17 years of nonstop togetherness.

JC (00:27.356)

Right, so it's, right. And then you were in a different dorm at Harvard and, you know, different friend group and all that. you know, yeah, yeah. It certainly wasn't, it wasn't overkill and it also wasn't nothing, you know?

Divia (00:33.216)

But we did hang out!

Divia (00:38.83)

Yeah, totally. And, you know, and we've kept in touch since then. I, you know, I wish I talked to you more ultimately, but, but I would say like at least, I don't know, like at least most years I think we check in. She seems like a.

JC (00:45.106)

Yeah, me too.

JC (00:51.836)

Yeah, and I think we totally could more and we probably just should do that. I don't think you're hard to reach at all, but I think it's just living in different cities and all that kind of stuff.

Divia (00:57.377)

Yeah, yeah that seems right.

Divia (01:03.659)

Yeah, totally. And, and JC also has a podcast. Do want to tell people a little about that?

JC (01:07.252)

Sure, yeah, so for the last 13 and a half years, which I cannot believe how long it's been, I've been working on the podcast called Risk, which is where people tell true stories they never thought they'd dare to share. No.

Divia (01:17.857)

Nice. Yeah. And so we were just texting the other day and I'm still sort of like restarting up with this podcast. Everybody took a pretty long break and trying to figure out what I'm doing. But one thing I know I want is just to like actually have conversations with people. And so I was like, yeah, let's, let's get on and, catch up and talk about stuff. I don't know, share our different perspectives. So JC, welcome to the podcast.

JC (01:39.72)

Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thank you, thank you. Yeah, I think it's funny. You know, it's funny, I was talking to my brother the other day and he was saying that he remembered having a conversation with you when we were kids and you came over to my house and he was like, why are you friends with her about me? And you were like very diplomatic, classic Divya, you know, like he did his great impression of you. I forget exactly what the wording was, but it was just something like, you know, well, you know, I think we have good chemistry and I like to talk to her and we have a nice time together. So like, I'm friends with her, you know? And he was just like.

I just thought that was hilarious.

Divia (02:09.017)

Yeah, siblings, siblings are really, I don't know, it's funny with sibling relationships. I hope your brother's doing well.

JC (02:17.51)

Yeah. Yeah, he is, you know, and he fondly remembers you, you know, so that's nice. But he could not believe that you have five kids. His head almost exploded when I said that. So I know I told him that. Yes, you have not wavered on this. I told him I was like, well, her dream was always three kids and then she had three kids and she wanted two more. So like she's doing what makes her happy. Like, you know, it's never it's never wavered, you know, but his head exploded.

Divia (02:22.573)

Yeah, it's mutual, totally.

Divia (02:30.751)

but I always wanted a bunch of kids. I feel like this has been consistent,

Divia (02:45.229)

You know, actually, so a little bit of it, you say that, I think that's almost right. I definitely said three kids, but this is, and I think we're gonna come back to this topic more than once, but like what I thought was normal growing up in New York, going to like a private girl's school with you like we did, and then what, you know, later I got older and I saw some more things. so I just, it sort of didn't occur to me, I think that anyone could have more than three kids.

JC (03:08.928)

that's hilarious.

Divia (03:09.997)

Because like, who did we really, I'm like, I don't know. I feel like I barely knew anyone who did. I was like, three kids is a big family. There was one Christian homeschool group at the music school I went to that had five kids, but I think that was maybe it for what I knew, which seems, I don't know, it seems sort of weird to reflect on that. And, okay, so then here's the other part of that.

JC (03:15.751)

Yeah.

Divia (03:30.169)

The next next week, assuming you know nothing goes wrong and I get everything recorded promptly etc. The podcast guest will be Michael Vassar whom I believe I introduced you to at one point. Yeah and I think you guys talked about like the New York City Council and stuff.

JC (03:40.039)

Who that is? Some Russian, this guy?

JC (03:46.46)

God, my God. Talk about why are you friends with her? my God, I thought he hated me with that conversation. And then you were like, he loved you. And I'm like, perhaps he could have made that a little bit more like apparent.

Divia (03:48.801)

Yeah, yeah, so, I didn't...

Divia (03:54.698)

No, no, no, yeah, not at all.

Divia (03:59.789)

me.

So yeah, my recollection of that was I was like, no, he thought you were smart. He just was expecting you to push back. He sort of doesn't know how to like communicate if the person isn't pushing back and like asking for details and like arguing with him more. And you were like, well, yeah, it's true. I didn't do that. so anyway, no, he, I talked to him at a certain point and I'm going to get into this when he comes out of the podcast, I think at least a little, or at least mention it, but like, it was some conversation with him where I was like, yeah, I guess I could, I guess I could have even more kids if I wanted to.

JC (04:15.198)

How funny! That's hilarious.

JC (04:33.005)

after three, not after five, right? Yeah.

Divia (04:33.177)

And so then I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, after three. And I was like, maybe I could have five kids. And that was before I had any kids, but I was like, maybe I could have five kids actually. Cause I'm like, I was sort of like, have like a book at the time I was probably like, I don't know, 25 or something. And I was like calculating and like, I haven't met someone yet, but if I do, and then how many years? And so anyway, that was kind of where I got that one into my head and probably no, well, just if it had been super easy, I might've had even more, but it wasn't.

JC (04:39.494)

Wow.

JC (04:52.558)

Wow, that's funny. Yeah, it's funny. It's like, go ahead.

Divia (05:00.417)

So I really did want kids, but it is a lot of work, so that's why we're done now.

JC (05:00.596)

Right, right, Yeah, it's kind of crazy to think about like, you know, whatever the 1890s were like tons of people were having like 12 kids, 15 kids, 17 kids. And it kind of makes you wonder like, if it's so much harder now, I guess it's that we're doing a lot older and it's also much more expensive and whatever, but it's like, what the hell were they doing that we're not doing? Where it's like, my God, one pregnancy almost killed me, you know, like.

Divia (05:17.879)

I don't...

Divia (05:22.903)

So, so my contrarian take on this is I think it was harder for them. I think they had kids anyway. I don't think it was because it was easier.

JC (05:33.14)

But like just the idea, I don't know, it's like I wonder if the kind of, I don't know, it's not like fertility or just like baby delivering ability of women is the same today as it was then in terms of like, could the same per capita number of women have 12 children today as they could back then? And I suppose if they all started at 16, sure, but nobody wants to do that and nobody should.

Divia (05:45.785)

Right.

Divia (05:50.562)

Yeah, maybe.

Divia (05:55.981)

Yeah, I think that's some of it. And obviously, like, people did have... I think infertility is a lot more common now. I think it's one of those many, like, people have theories, but like lot of modern health problems, people are like, I don't know, like, modern health problems. Maybe. Right. Something like that. Totally.

JC (06:05.948)

Yeah. Yeah. Microplastics and chemicals and poison food and depression and, you know, all these terrible things we're dealing with. Yeah. Yeah. It's like we have more freedom, but we're less happy. And back then it's like, I don't think people were necessarily more happy back then, but it's like, you just had to do what you had to do. And you weren't thinking like, but I want to be a lawyer. It's like, I mean, some, some women were, but I feel like most women were like, this is my fate. It sucks, but it is what it is. I don't have another option, you know?

Divia (06:27.767)

Right, right.

Divia (06:36.033)

Yeah, this guy that I some, I think it's David Chapman. He talks about like the choiceless mode where like now, I don't know, we sort of, did modernism, we did postmodernism. And so they're obviously like trad people or whatever, but it's never really the same when you know that like, you could just go live in modern society and have a choice if you want. Like maybe for the Amish or something where you're like, I guess I could, but I was raised this, like everyone I know is ever whatever. But for like most people that were raised in like a

JC (06:41.949)

Mmm.

JC (06:54.792)

Mm

Divia (07:02.861)

basically modern context. There's there's no going back. You know you have choices.

JC (07:06.694)

Right, right. Well, I like choices. I'm glad we have them for sure, you know.

Divia (07:09.783)

No, but yeah, absolutely. But people, so yeah, I also am very pro -choice in the broad sense of the word, but I do hear people like on Twitter and stuff and like complaining pretty often, like they wish they had less choices, which I don't personally identify with, but I think that's out there as like a political take.

JC (07:27.316)

Yeah, I mean, that's something I struggle with constantly is like, there's a million things I want to do, and there's not enough time to do even two or three of them. And it's very frustrating to like have constant ambitions of like 12 million things and be like, well, it's not going to happen. And then also, like, I talk about ideas all the time. And I feel like people get exasperated with me because they're like, this is the 50th idea I've heard from you over the last two years, and you've been talking about it forever. What are you just going to do it? And I'm like, maybe it's not about that.

Maybe it's just like, I'm constantly thinking of things and as time changes, I think of a new thing or as I learn more about the thing, then I'm like, okay, I'm not doing that anymore, but maybe I could do this. but it's like, in the meantime, my days are jam packed with stuff to do. And I don't know, I'm trying to figure out like, how do I find peace and be like, yes, I'm just going to have ideas all the time, but unless I decide to push other things aside to execute this one idea or be like, I'll do this one idea for one month and then I will stop and do a different idea.

just make peace with the fact that like, it's just gonna be a fire hose of ideas and like an absolute trickle of execution, you know?

Divia (08:29.985)

Yeah, I mean, I certainly relate to that. I think most people do, right? Yeah.

JC (08:32.466)

Yeah, I think that's like the human conditions. Like, yeah, but that's why it's funny to me when people are like, you've been talking about this for so long, when are you gonna do it? And I'm like, you've been talking about plenty of things for so long. We all talk about things for a long time. Like go f**k yourself, you know?

Divia (08:40.153)

Right?

Yeah, no, and I certainly, I think also like, this is sort of a, it's like a pretty basic answer, but like, I think one of the reasons that we get along is I think we both like talking about stuff, like we find that energizing. Probably also why we both have podcasts, like, and then, yeah.

JC (08:57.46)

Right.

Right. I mean, can I ask you, because one thing that drives me completely insane is feeling like I'm the only extrovert I know, but would you identify as an extrovert or like, okay, yeah, then I think that's a big f*****g point of like commonality between us, you know, like, do you find like you're you're surrounded by introverts and misanthropists or misanthropes or whatever the word is?

Divia (09:09.965)

Yeah, totally. Yeah.

Yeah.

Divia (09:20.043)

Well, yeah, no, some of that, but all like, and it's a little bit weird because I do consider myself an extrovert, but then this is some of the thing about having kids is I get to the end of the day or even in the middle of the day. And I'm like, I need nobody to talk to me for like five minutes in a row because I, you know, I think some of my kids are extroverts too, which I think is great. Or at least they want to talk to me. I think at least one of them is definitely an extrovert. And I think that's great. But like I

JC (09:34.8)

Mm

Divia (09:48.439)

because I do think there's something, certainly for me. So a weird thing that I've done, I'm not currently doing it very much, but I, there's this Facebook group for people who want to post like, I'll pay somebody to do this. And so it's just like among rationalists basically. it's, no, it's all over the map. Like last night I logged on and some guys like, I'll pay you a hundred dollars an hour if you help me with this programming thing right now.

JC (10:04.302)

What are the things they're asking for then? Not screwing in a light bulb but...

Divia (10:15.257)

But then other people will be like, like I once posted and I was like, I'll pay $5 to someone who makes a gift with the subtitle of this one thing from planet unicorn. Cause I couldn't figure out how to do it. And sure enough, someone was like, yeah, I'll do it. Cause that took me like two seconds. So like, why not make $5? But, but something I posted was because sometimes I like, if you ever noticed, like I'll get stuck on something and then once I talk it through, then I'm not stuck. It's a common human experience. So I was like, okay.

JC (10:16.195)

I need to learn programming.

JC (10:25.758)

That's cute.

That's cute. Nice.

JC (10:41.512)

Mm -hmm.

Divia (10:43.417)

I'll pay either $50 an hour or we'll do like an in -kind trade one hour per one hour for somebody to just listen to me talk about whatever it is I'm on about. And I don't normally do it and I ultimately like, I don't know, I feel a little weird about it, but then sometimes I do it. But it was extremely helpful whatever I did it.

JC (10:51.758)

Mm -hmm.

JC (11:00.276)

Mm -hmm. That's something that's another f*****g idea I have that I've never acted on and I may never act on and you got to make peace with it everybody in the world is is is offering hey I will listen to people for whatever 50 bucks an hour if you just need somebody to be present and listen I will do that and then one thing I thought was like I probably need to make some guardrails of like I'm allowed to say hey I need to stop you on that topic I don't want to hear about that if somebody's like let me tell you about this time that I just remembered a living cat it's like no thanks you know but if it's just like you know

Divia (11:07.383)

you

Divia (11:15.459)

Yeah.

Divia (11:29.325)

Right, right.

JC (11:29.992)

I'm feeling lonely and I need someone to listen. It's like, sure, you know.

Divia (11:33.495)

Yeah. Yeah. And for me, a lot of it's like, just, have some idea that like only half makes sense to me, but if I talk it through, they'll make more sense. but anyway, like I think sometimes my kids too, like I think they like to talk to people to process in like sometimes the sort of more one -sided way, which I think is developmentally appropriate and all fine. But then, so yeah, so I do think of myself as an extrovert, but then sometimes given that my kids and I still have little ones and then I have a lot of them.

JC (11:42.226)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

JC (11:51.24)

That's funny. Right.

Divia (12:02.763)

and they rely on me, it doesn't meet, like, I don't necessarily want socialization on every margin, but especially if it's like more peer -like and like with somebody who's like also gonna care about, like also be more attuned to me. So it's like, that is one -sided. But yeah, I do find that very energizing. I do like to do it a lot.

JC (12:04.104)

Mm -hmm.

JC (12:09.256)

Mm -hmm.

JC (12:13.032)

Mm -hmm.

JC (12:22.74)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was just talking to my cousin about, know, how like our social needs are not getting met, you know, and how I don't know if we just said this before recording or what, but the idea of like, you know, people would not be so desperate for relationships if their friends were showing up more, or if it was easier to get time with friends, you know, and I feel like at 40, I am so tired of chasing people around, you know, and I feel like as somebody who like works alone from home,

Divia (12:49.208)

Yeah.

JC (12:51.316)

I need the interaction more than they do. Like I recognize that a lot of my friends deal with people all day long in their jobs and then they come home and they just want to watch TV and not talk to anybody. And I'm the opposite. I'm alone all day. I want to talk to people when the work day ends, you know, or even in the middle of the work day, you know, and I'm so tired of calling 20 people and not getting anybody. It's, it's insane to me. It's like my friends have flexible schedules. They live all over the world. Da da da da. How can it be that all 20 people I try are not available?

Divia (13:04.098)

Right.

JC (13:21.14)

bright this same moment. You I'm not calling at 10 a on a Tuesday, you know what mean? And it's exhausting. And it's like when you feel like you need some social time, the worst feeling is like, well, I just tried 20 people. Most people don't have 20 people they could call. I have f*****g 80 people I could call. I call 20 and I'm so depleted by the idea that nobody picks up that I'm like.

Divia (13:25.997)

Yeah.

Divia (13:36.813)

Totally.

JC (13:43.964)

I can't do this to myself anymore. Like nothing comforts me more than talking to a friend, but it's not possible to talk to a friend. So I guess I got to read a book or listen to a podcast or go to the gym or whatever, you And I think if I knew like my friends are going to be present and show up and when I call somebody they will pick up or they will call right back or whatever, then, you know, it's like, I'm not longing for a relationship, but one reason why I understand why so many other people seem to be is just this idea of like, I need

Divia (13:55.352)

Yeah.

JC (14:13.384)

to have a designated person in my life who is obligated to show up for me. They have agreed to that and that's the expectation and they're gonna do it, you know?

Divia (14:22.487)

Yeah. No, I mean, this is, I think it's a huge topic because lots and lots of people talk about, and like, I don't really trust surveys that much, but in surveys, I think most people say they're lonely or at least like almost half, like a lot. It's big. It is also just, you know, aside from surveys, this just seems true of people I know when I asked them. But then, like you say, it's like modern culture does basically tend to have the frame of like,

JC (14:35.497)

Mm -hmm.

Divia (14:50.189)

You don't really owe anyone anything except maybe like the person you're dating and your kids and stuff like that. Like family and romantic partners are the only one that it's like more socially accepted to have that type of more like committed, like actually you owe them something in relationship with.

JC (14:58.025)

Yeah.

JC (15:02.995)

Yeah.

Yeah, and that's what drives me crazy is like, people go and find relationships and create human beings that they are legally responsible for and that they kind of own in a way, partially because they're like, well, the alternative is being alone and that is horrifying. And it's like, okay, so why are you surprised when I say, hey, I really need to talk to you right now and it's not great if you can never talk. Because it's like, I don't have a...

Divia (15:21.73)

Right.

Divia (15:29.912)

Yeah.

JC (15:31.678)

partner and a family. I don't have built in people that are obligated to be present in my life, you know? So I need, you know, voluntary people. And yeah, you know, I'm very frustrated by the attitude of like, no one owes anybody anything, because it's like, then good f*****g luck to us. Then we're all gonna f*****g die. Is that what we want? No, like, I want a healthy society. And a big part of that is giving a s**t about other people and showing up, you know?

Divia (15:49.378)

Right.

Yeah, no.

Divia (15:58.807)

Yeah, totally. Yeah, no, and I mean, and I think like a lot of people, I don't know, like, I relate to this somewhat where I'm like, okay, like, you know, as a kid, you're going to have various sort of obligations that don't really make a lot of sense to me. And then at a certain point, I'm like, wait a minute, like, shouldn't I sort of get to decide for myself about these types of things? But then like, but then it doesn't mean I don't actually have obligations, obviously.

And I think some of how I try to think of it is like, whatever, what is the thing that I think is sort of supposed to happen? And then like, who are all of the plausible people who maybe could be doing it? And I'm one of them. And so maybe that's like some information about how much I ought to try to do it. Am I making sense?

JC (16:39.826)

Yeah. Yeah. And also like, you know, I'm just learning over time, like how to better focus my efforts as I try to get my social needs met, which frankly, I just don't know if it's ever going to happen unless I get some job that is just talking to people all day long. But I, know, a lot of those are not very well paid and I don't really want to do them. anyway, f**k was I going to say? Hang on. I've realized like, I can't just

you know, for lack of a better term, spray and pray in terms of how I try to make friends. Like, it gets more specific every year of like, okay, now I need friends who are planning to live in New York City forever. Now I need friends who are planning to live in my neighborhood forever because I don't want to take four trains to go see people. Now I need friends who are going to not be in a relationship and not have children if that means that they're not going to have time for their friends.

Divia (17:13.271)

Right.

Divia (17:26.091)

Mm

JC (17:32.564)

Now I need to find people that, and like all these things plus like natural friend chemistry. Like I don't want to hang out with people that are like perfectly nice, but I don't give a s**t about them. Like I want to have the like deep friend chemistry. And you know, and I'm realizing like, I feel like phases of life come out of nowhere and just like smack you in the face and like turn you upside down and shake you and make everything fall out of your pockets or whatever with like no warning. And so I feel like this phase of life, like the phase of life that started

Divia (17:41.517)

Great.

JC (17:58.612)

previously that's still going is like everybody's parents are getting old and it's starting to impact our lives where it's like now you have to really like take care of your parents and get in there and like do some work to help them and factor them in and blah blah blah in a way that maybe you didn't 10 years ago and like the new phase is like crossing the 40 line in New York City never in my life did I think about how so much of the culture of at least certain areas of New York City that I frequent

Divia (18:02.423)

Yeah.

Divia (18:21.613)

Yeah.

JC (18:28.148)

are about you're under 40 and you're going out and you're socializing. And it makes sense for you because you are under 40 or under 30 and that's what your people do. But then you cross the 40 boundary and it's like, okay, now I'm the grandma in the room. Everybody else here is still 24 and I'm not, and it feels weird and I don't like it. And also with like the generational divide, like Gen Z and Gen Alpha are so different from millennials in some ways.

Divia (18:33.069)

Mm

JC (18:54.036)

that it's like you feel like a foreigner and you feel like you do not know what's going on. And also it's like, I had this experience where I was playing with a cover band in a bar and all the patrons were under 26. And I looked out across this crowd of people in friend groups having the best time with their best friends from college and high school and whatever. And I couldn't help but think you people don't understand that this is gonna come to an end.

Divia (18:54.157)

Yeah.

JC (19:17.652)

real fast and either all of you are gonna leave or all your friends are gonna leave. And like this is a very fleeting era and then you're gonna be alone. And like I'm standing on here as the 40 year old on stage looking out at you like your fetuses and also being like enjoy it while you got it bro, cause this is gonna end real fast and nobody told me that, you know? And so it's been like a hard adjustment to be like, okay, where do I go as a 40 year old to not be the only 40 year old in the room? And like,

Divia (19:19.576)

No.

JC (19:46.9)

You know, I had a conversation with like a work colleague that I ran into somewhere where we were having this conversation of like, okay, we're women over 40 who want to live in New York forever, are not seeking relationships, are not seeking to move away and are not seeking to have children. Where do we find each other? Because there are many thousands of us and we all want community with each other because we're tired of having our hearts broken by everybody leaving, you know?

Divia (19:59.885)

Mm

JC (20:09.758)

but like somebody's gonna have to spearhead it. And again, that's another of my million ideas that I'll probably never do, but I kind of have to because I'm like, if I want my life to be better, I've got to step up and do this because nobody else will.

Divia (20:12.951)

Here.

Divia (20:20.345)

Okay, but it seems to me, like, and obviously I don't know all the details, but like, it seems to me like you do a lot. Like you actually do try to put yourself out there and meet a bunch of people and like, what are you talking about doing that you're not already doing?

JC (20:30.15)

Yeah. Well, so for example, last or a couple nights ago, I went out, I took the initiative to talk to somebody new who was like playing pool and stuff. And I was like, do you want somebody to play with? And he was like, sure. Like I actually was really hoping somebody would ask. And I was like, amazing, great. We had a great time playing and chatting. He's, you know, friendly and interesting and like all these great things. But I I've met so many people over my adulthood who I'm like, I really like this person. I'd like to stay in touch with them. I'd like to try to build a friendship with them, whatever.

and I put in the effort and it doesn't lead anywhere. And so now I'm kind of like, I'm not gonna like try to make something happen with people anymore unless I'm like, this person is so special and I really think they want me to like invite them to like continue knowing each other. Otherwise it's like, this is one of the another person where I had an amazing time with them and it doesn't mean anything to them or it does, but they don't want a friendship, you know, or they're not gonna.

Divia (21:01.997)

Yeah. Yeah.

Divia (21:25.016)

Right.

JC (21:25.982)

put in the work and I'm so tired of being the first one to message and then like not hearing back or being the person who has to like set up like the first like three hangouts until it kind of like get the momentum going. And also it's like he was a guy and you he was there with his adult child and so I don't know if he had a partner he didn't mention it but it's like I you know I don't know I don't know what the vibe was I didn't I didn't say like you know.

Divia (21:35.651)

Mm -hmm.

Divia (21:50.178)

Right.

JC (21:51.644)

hey, are you open to friendship, whatever. And also he was like in his mid 50s, so it's like, maybe he is pretty satisfied with his life or maybe he's not, but he didn't seem to want me to make an effort to like keep in touch. So I'm at the point now where I'm like, if I'm not getting the vibe that somebody's like, please let's be friends, then I'll just kind of hold back and be like, it was awesome hanging out with you, know? Yeah.

Divia (22:05.187)

Right.

Divia (22:13.655)

Yeah, not waste your energy on that.

Divia (22:19.425)

Yeah, no, it's I think it is one of those things where a lot of people really do want community. A lot of people really are lonely. And then I have I have a similar experience to you of most people don't follow up or anything like that. Or like even if I do follow up, it doesn't mean that they do. And. Yeah, spray and pray, sort of like what you said.

JC (22:32.392)

Yeah. Mm -hmm.

JC (22:39.602)

Yeah, you know, it's tough. know, I'm somebody who would like to have that conversation directly, but I feel like a lot of people say like, but you can't do that. You can't ask that. And so I feel like it's okay to kind of feel it out of just being like, I was getting the vibe that like, yes, he thought I was funny and nice and yes, we had a good time playing pool together and yes, yes, yes. But he doesn't seem to be wanting to exchange information. It doesn't seem like he'll care if he never sees me again. like.

I'm just gonna let it be and say good night. And I kind of opened the door where it's like, I could have just left without saying goodbye, but instead I said, hey, it was really fun hanging out with you. I'm gonna head out, but have a great night. He could have been like, wait, let me get your information, but he didn't. at this point, after being the person who makes all the effort, I wanna meet people who are trying to make an effort. it's like my friend who was there with me who's so funny, he's like, I think that guy wants to bone you, whatever. And first of all, it's like, well, that's not.

Divia (23:23.715)

Right.

Divia (23:31.32)

Yeah.

JC (23:37.148)

what I want from him, but second, if he does, then he should f*****g say something. He should ask for my f*****g information. I don't wanna deal with a guy who's not gonna make effort. So whether it's for a friend or for a companion, know? Yeah, and that's another little like subtopic is like.

Divia (23:43.181)

Yeah.

Totally.

Divia (23:52.046)

Yeah.

JC (23:58.264)

I have wasted so much energy trying to build friendships with men who are in relationships with women. Just, you know, friendships. And it's like, I've learned, beware the straight man who's in a relationship with a woman because he is a waste of your f*****g time. He will not put in effort. You know, he will have paranoia about like, like my girlfriend, what would she think? It's like, it doesn't f*****g matter. I'm not trying to f**k you. Calm down, you know? And like...

Divia (24:07.192)

Yeah.

Divia (24:21.776)

Thank

JC (24:23.954)

So I just feel like that's a demographic where it's like, tread real carefully, let them make the effort, because if I make the effort and then they dip, it's like, it's more and more disappointment for me and I'm sick of it, you know?

Divia (24:37.429)

Yeah, I mean, so are there people where you have had more success? Yeah. Okay, what are the most promising ones?

JC (24:40.66)

other demographics of people? For sure. It's like, you know, I can make friends with women all day long, you know, basically like women and gay guys, you know, same s**t. We all know, you know, you know, it's like this is, this is, you know, I was talking to, you know, my cousin about this. I've talked to lots of people. I think one of the most alarming things going on in our society is the, is the real, I don't know if you'd say bifurcation or like just the segregation and separation of men and women, you know, especially like straight men and straight women, you know.

Divia (24:48.481)

Okay, yeah.

Divia (25:06.861)

Mm.

JC (25:10.004)

It's a real problem. And I think it's only gonna make things worse and worse and worse if we don't start bridging the gap. But in order to bridge the gap, we've gotta fight the rhetoric where people are saying, men are trash, women suck, whatever. It's like, if you have this idea that a whole group of people is terrible, then you're alienating them. And you're not gonna put any effort into trying to get to know them. And it's like,

I love straight men. I have straight men friends who I just adore and straight men in my life that I just think are the best people and I love talking to them. I love hanging out with them. I'm just saying that when I meet a straight man who has a girlfriend, that seems like a minefield because it's like, you know, this guy that I met recently, it made me so angry because he's an awesome guy and I really wanted to be friends with him and he lives in my neighborhood. We hung out, we talked for six hours, but you know what?

Divia (25:51.352)

Yeah.

Divia (25:59.255)

Hmm.

JC (26:02.844)

He was talking about how things weren't going well with his girlfriend. And you know when I stopped hearing from him? When things started going better with her. And it's like, are you f*****g kidding me? And it's like, and at least just say, like, hey, I really had an awesome time talking with you. Things are going better with my girlfriend now. We're spending a lot of time together. I just don't have bandwidth for like building new friendships right now or whatever. But the whole like complete disregard of like,

Divia (26:14.765)

Yeah.

JC (26:28.984)

six hours talking to a new person and you don't wanna be friends? What the f**k? And it's so obvious that it's about your f*****g girlfriend and now you're getting what you need from her so you don't care about friends. And it's like, f**k you, friendship f*****g matters.

Divia (26:35.991)

Yeah, you just can't relate to it, right?

Divia (26:45.763)

Yeah.

Yeah, how do you, like, if you could sort of, like, what is your speech to people about how they ought to relate to friendship? Like, how do you think people should do it?

JC (26:56.7)

Like if I'm just talking to like the general public about it. Well, one thing I've been thinking is like people really should treat it like dating in the sense of like a friendship is not a friendship until you both kind of get to know each other a little bit and you agree like, okay, we are friends now. Like you're not friends if you've like met at a party and hung out once, you know, it's like you're not obligated to each other. And there needs to be an open line of communication of like if somebody is really feeling it and the other person's not quite so sure.

Divia (26:58.722)

Yeah.

Divia (27:16.557)

Mm

JC (27:24.584)

then the person who's really feeling it should probably be like, hey, let's hang out again. And if the other person isn't feeling it, they can be like, you know, thank you so much, but I'm not really feeling it the way you would with dating instead of like, okay. And then you're just like leading someone on in a friendship way. But also it's like, I think it's like, you have to show up. Like a conversation I'll never forget. Is there somebody that I know from college who I don't know if you know or not, but we were having a conversation at a party once and he was saying,

Divia (27:34.817)

And then, right.

JC (27:50.136)

I was talking about friendship stuff or whatever. And he was saying like, well, I have a friend who's really mad at me because like, I don't really keep in touch. And he's like, but why is she so mad? I'm not doing anything. I'm not taking action that is hurting her. So like, what am I doing wrong? I'm not doing anything. And I was like, dummy, she wants you to do something. So you're neglecting the relationship. That's why she's angry. Like, we don't have friends so that they can just...

Divia (27:56.642)

Divia (28:07.96)

Yeah.

JC (28:13.874)

you know, ghost us. Like if you're going to be somebody's friend, you should send a text once in a while. You should have a call once in a while. You should let them know when you're in their city, you know? And so yeah, she's angry because you're supposed to be her friend and you're slacking on your friend duties, you know? And she's telling you that and you're not remedying it. You're not her friend. Just tell her, I don't want to be friends anymore. I can't, I can't put in the effort. So I can't, you're not going to get anything out of this friendship. So I'm going to peace out, you know?

Divia (28:28.065)

Yeah.

JC (28:41.598)

So yeah, think friendship is so much about like caring and actually showing that you care. Because like something I think about all the time, which is like, you know, it's whatever, but it is what it is. Like I love saying things that mean nothing. It is what it is. I think all the time about like, if I died, I know that there's a lot of people who'd be like, my God, I loved her. And it's like.

Divia (28:52.297)

You

JC (29:02.788)

and you never called me and you never texted and you never let me know when you were in New York and you never made an effort. like save it a*****e. know, like if you care about me f*****g do something about it. So that's definitely my thing is like when you think of someone in your life, send them a text, do it.

Divia (29:05.581)

Yeah.

Divia (29:13.356)

You

Divia (29:25.143)

Yeah. Okay, yeah. So it seems like for you, they're kind of two things that are maybe the same thing. One is like, have a concept in your head, a friend that means, that has some obligation attached to it. That isn't just like, like them, but it's like, and here's how I'll show up for them. And you also want people to be direct with people about whether they're up for that or not.

JC (29:37.832)

Mm -hmm.

JC (29:41.651)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Yeah, because I feel like a lot of times I think about how I feel like I'm item number 697 on a lot of my quote unquote friends priority lists where it's just like, if I'm not poking them for attention, I'll never hear from them again. And like, it will never occur to them to send me a text or whatever. But if I say like, hey, you're invited to my birthday, they show up and they have a great time and they talk to me. If I say, hey, do you want to go see this movie together? They'll be like, yes. And then we'll have a grand old time. But like, yeah, if I don't, it's like,

It does not feel like I matter to them in the least. And like, it's not my preference.

Divia (30:20.545)

Yeah, no, it's true. a lot of a lot of like if I periodically they'll be like Twitter threads or stuff and I'll sometimes signal boost them about like here's how to meet people if you're trying to as an adult or whatever. And it's a lot of stuff that we've talked about, like put yourself out there, introduce yourself, host events, whatever, whatever, like all that stuff. And I do think it's true that the advice doesn't usually the advice tends to assume that the person is willing to put in all of the effort themselves perpetually. Which it makes sense.

JC (30:46.298)

Mm -hmm, mm -hmm. Or at least like a lot of effort up front of like send the first message. If you don't get a response, follow up gently. If you don't get a response, then maybe leave it alone. But like, yeah, like set up the first meeting, then like set up the second meeting a couple of weeks later, and like communicate directly. It's funny, I have a friendship that like just started recently where it was kind of crazy to me because we started...

with a little bit of like a conflict about like, I'm really disappointed in how you are not showing up, you know? And then we had to have this whole like text discussion about like, yeah, I'm sorry, I've just been like so busy and this is not how I usually am and I know that it sucks. Cause I think we had our initial conversation, we met at a party, our initial conversation had been like, we're feeling a little lonely, we want more friends, we're the kind of people that show up as friends. We like talking to each other. Okay, great, let's make a time to hang out. And then it was extremely difficult to get that first time on the calendar.

Divia (31:18.659)

Mm

Divia (31:42.371)

Mm

JC (31:42.388)

and, and so I was feeling very like tender about that because I ha I was dealing with another friend that was kind of flaking and I was just like feeling very frustrated and exhausted by like constant friend flakiness and, never getting any closure about that because it always feels like you can't be like, Hey, I'm not happy with what's going on here because people will just kind of be like, chill out, dude. Your number 697 on the call list.

Like, what are you expecting? You know what I mean? But I'm kind of at the point now where it's like, well, if I'm number 697, I can say if I have a problem, and if you don't like it you want to walk away, what am I really losing? But like, I'm sick and tired of being like, it's all fine, it's not, you know? So anyway, so I was like, you know what? I just met this woman, I want to be friends with her, but if me expressing myself makes her go away, I'm okay with that because we just met. So again, what am I losing?

Divia (32:08.332)

Right.

Divia (32:15.669)

Right.

Divia (32:22.424)

Yeah.

JC (32:33.958)

and I'm tired of holding everything back all the time. So I said, like, hey, I'm not happy about how hard it's been to get something on the couch. I don't remember the exact words. I use something gentler than this, because I know that sounds like a lot or whatever. But I was just like, you know, I'm just so exhausted by all the friend crap that I deal with all the time. And it just feels like we're going down that same road. And I just don't want that. So let's please try to make something happen or let it go. And she was, I was really.

Divia (32:36.611)

Thank

Divia (32:43.33)

Okay.

Divia (33:02.211)

Good.

JC (33:03.782)

impressed by her stepping up and being like, you're right, it has not been ideal. This is not how I want to show up. Things have been crazy. I'm sorry. This is like not how I usually am. And like, we will make this happen. And then like we did make it happen. And it was kind of weird to start off because I was just like, you like we started with a conflict like that has never happened to me before. But we also started with resolving a conflict, which makes me feel more like secure and confident about like

Divia (33:15.107)

Okay.

JC (33:30.194)

she's somebody who's willing to have the conversation and then like course correct, which is amazing, you especially for a f*****g new person to whom she owes nothing, you know? You know, and it was, but I just felt like, let me just like clear the air of just like, I'm sorry that we started in conflict. I really appreciate how you like stepped up. It'll be okay. I understand. I was also in just like a really sensitive moment about this exact issue. So I was just kind of like, f**k it. I'm going to tell this person how I feel. I'm sick of not saying anything.

Divia (33:35.041)

Okay.

Right.

JC (34:00.244)

But I think, you we cleared the air about that and then we're like off to the races now and we're like kind of, you know, slowly building some rapport and I'm sure it'll be fine. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, it's funny because it's like she's she's really great, but she does live far enough away that it's like, God, like, I really want friends within 10 blocks at this point, you know.

Divia (34:11.884)

the school.

Divia (34:24.479)

That's so close though.

JC (34:26.034)

I know, but it's like, you my neighborhood is chock -a -block with cool, nice people. And let me tell you this, like I could talk about this s**t forever. I ran into a friend from college the other night. I didn't see him, he saw me. He called out to me, he reminded me who he was, because like my eyesight is not great. And you know, like at this point in our lives, it's like, there's so many faces where it's like, I know this face, but.

Divia (34:32.185)

You

Divia (34:43.918)

Yeah.

JC (34:47.486)

please help me. And so he immediately told me who he was, which I really appreciated. And I was like, of course. And then I was like right in it of like, I remembered our inside jokes and like I remembered our context and all that kind of stuff. And I was like, hey, what are you doing? He was like, I'm doing this job. I was like, where are you living? He lives three blocks away from me. But I have always gotten the vibe from this guy that he is not going to show up as a friend for me. He's a friendly acquaintance who is willing to say hello to me proactively when I didn't even see him. But he does not want to exchange information.

Divia (34:57.282)

Nice.

Divia (35:03.513)

Wow.

Divia (35:08.439)

Right.

JC (35:15.432)

does not want to be in touch. He's a f*****g straight man with a girlfriend. It just is what it is. And so I'm not going to do the thing anymore of like, well, we should grab coffee. No, we shouldn't because you don't want to. So like, I accept that you are a person who remembers that you know me and you proactively say hello to me when you didn't have to, but you will not engage with me beyond that. And I accept that. But I'm just like, why do you live three blocks from me and Divya lives in Austin?

Divia (35:20.323)

Yeah.

Divia (35:28.365)

Right.

Divia (35:45.025)

Yeah.

JC (35:45.044)

Why do you live three blocks from me and all my best friends have moved across the globe? What the f**k? So I'm just like, there have to be people within 10 blocks of me that are willing to engage with me. And I wanna find those people and create relationships, you know?

Divia (36:00.557)

Yeah, no, I mean, it's it is a big value add to have people be close for sure. Like physically close. I did know and and it took forever. Yeah, I don't I don't think I've talked about this on the podcast very much, but but I did finally move to Austin in a neighborhood with other friends that I already knew. And it's honestly it's really great. And I will say, though, for me, something I learned about myself during Covid is it works like I definitely prefer seeing people in person, to be clear. But I

JC (36:05.468)

I mean, you literally put a huge amount of effort into making that happen.

JC (36:20.745)

Mm -hmm.

JC (36:28.38)

Mm -hmm.

Divia (36:30.359)

do all right if I get to just talk on the phone. But then I'm like, for my kids, especially, it's just like even more important that it be in person. Though then I say that, know, so the thing you're saying about like, yeah, and so the people we moved with, so one of them does not have kids, he's just a guy, you know, and he hangs out and that's cool. Or so he has step kids that are much older, but he doesn't have.

JC (36:32.456)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

JC (36:40.272)

Mm -hmm. You mean your kids to play with other kids? Yeah, yeah.

JC (36:53.454)

huh.

Divia (36:58.061)

He doesn't have kids in the neighborhood. But for everyone else, that's really great. Because something I always used to think about from when I was a kid, I don't know if you remember my neighbor who lived right across. You probably didn't know him. So it was a weird situation because his dad, he mostly only spent the summers in America and then he was in France the rest of the time. And my, like.

I don't even... I guess I feel weird about saying this because he's like a real person who's out there somewhere. But like, I don't think we really did actually have that much friend chemistry, but he was literally next door. And so yet we hung out all the time. And so I think about that for my kids and like some people are course more extroverted than others and some of my kids are more than others, but I'm like I want them if they just want to go hang out with someone, I want them to have that as an option. Yeah.

JC (37:28.946)

Yes, yes.

Mm.

JC (37:44.432)

Mm -hmm, for sure, for sure. Yeah, and that's why I'm like, you know, it's tough, because it's like, I've definitely thought of the thing of like, let me just create community immediately around me, but it's not easy because my roommates don't want it. So it's like, okay, I'm not going to force people. They don't want it. But like, this is a real problem for me and it has been for years. And so it's like, you know, when it's time for new people to come in, I'm going to be so much more just crystal clear about this is what I expect.

Divia (37:58.05)

Yeah.

JC (38:13.404)

if that sounds weird to you, find somewhere else. I cannot live with it. I really can't. I'm tired. I've done it for too long and I'm really sick of it, you know? And then I was like, okay, well, what about my building? The people in my building are friendly people who do not want to put in effort and create relationships. And there's also a big age gap. I, know, I, I, yeah. And it's like, and I feel that thing of like, they're in a stage of their life where all their friends live here and they want to go out and party all night and blah, blah, blah. And like everything's peachy keen. And it's like,

Divia (38:32.654)

Like they're younger or they're... yeah.

JC (38:43.828)

You guys tell me how you're doing in 10 years when everybody's moved away and gotten married and had kids. And then you'll understand why the 40 year old neighbor wanted to, you know, make some connections, but they don't want to. So, okay. And you know, it's hilarious is actually, there's a woman who lives around the corner that I've seen like, I don't know, at least a hundred times or whatever. And we've been saying hello, you know, like over the years, just hello. She only introduced herself like a couple days ago for the first time. Cause she's like, I see you all the time. Like I've been living here 15 years. How long have you been, I was like, yeah, 10 years, you know?

Divia (39:02.585)

Mm

Divia (39:12.813)

Mm

JC (39:13.46)

And I would be very happy to strike up a friendship with her. And I'm treading carefully, I don't know if she wants that, whatever. But it's like, clearly you are a person who has been rooted here and you're friendly, you're looking at a stranger and saying hello to them and acknowledging that you've seen them a lot. And so yeah, I'm just like, I wanna try to see who else lives within a 10 block radius and is feeling like they want friends. Because I want...

Divia (39:25.462)

Mm

JC (39:40.376)

know, a bunch of Kramer's in my life, you know, just like people are gonna pop by or be like, let's take a walk or like, you know, I'm right here. And you know, it's like, I know other people like right near me who are just never available, one of whom is a man with a family. And so I'm just like, yep, not worth the trouble. Have fun with your f*****g family, you know, and it's badening.

Divia (39:43.533)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Divia (39:52.665)

Mm

Divia (40:01.431)

Yeah.

Yeah.

JC (40:05.064)

I mean, one thing I always wonder about, I know you kind of touched on this earlier, and I guess maybe I do know the answer, whatever, is what amount of your needs are met by having a partner and a family and living with them? And what needs are still not met by that? And do you feel like, thank God I have a partner and family, because it meets all my needs. And if I didn't have that, I'd be on the struggle bus. Or what's your kind of thought about that?

Divia (40:25.133)

Mm -hmm.

Divia (40:30.969)

I mean, all my, that's like a weird, I don't know that I think of it exactly like that. So I mean, I would say a family, like I, like obviously I love my family, like coldest take ever or whatever. But like there's something there for me that's, it just, it's like, it's the only thing like that. I'm like the meeting.

JC (40:35.539)

Mm -hmm.

Divia (40:55.723)

it gives me and like that I've just always wanted kids and then they're there and I were like creating something to get like, I don't know. It's not like anything else, but it's also not like to hang out with my kids, at least at these ages, it's a pretty different activity from socializing with adults. And so hanging out with my husband is much more similar. No doubt. I will say we're in a tough stage there in terms of just hours per day.

JC (41:10.738)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

JC (41:24.072)

Mm -hmm.

Divia (41:25.025)

And we try, and this is, I think it's basically my fault because I tried having more childcare and it was good for that, but ultimately it sort of didn't work for me. And the kids are still young. And so in some way, like the sad thing is in some ways it's easier for me to hang out. We switch off with the kids. And so in some ways it's easier for me to hang out with people that are not my husbands.

JC (41:33.736)

Hmm.

JC (41:40.489)

Mm

JC (41:46.545)

Mm Because it's like having Will home with the kids is the only way for you to get adult social time and then he can't be there.

Divia (41:54.295)

Yeah, I mean, we can all hang out together, but then it's more, it's like a different activity. And sometimes all the kids are asleep or something. And I really try, I'm not always the best about it, but I try to really remember like, no, this is scarce. So if there's like even a moment, I should go hang out with him. Sometimes I'll call him because they're like in the same house with the kids and I'll like call him and like talk to him about stuff. So yeah, I would say I do not get...

JC (41:56.594)

Right. Right.

Mm -hmm.

JC (42:06.617)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

JC (42:17.032)

That's funny.

Divia (42:21.057)

As much, yeah, I've failed to set up a life where I get as much time with my husband as I want. I do feel bad about it. I think in a few years it'll be a lot better, but it's been a long time of just, it's great, but it's not as much as I want. And I feel confident he would say the same thing.

JC (42:29.618)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

JC (42:34.675)

Mm -hmm.

And do you feel like you could ever draw, I mean, know, this is classic child -free person asking a question like this, whatever, but do you think you could ever set a boundary with your kids of like, mom and dad need some time alone, Lydia's in charge, go play in the backyard, only contact us if someone's injured or crying or whatever, you know?

Divia (42:43.828)

Yeah.

Divia (42:54.499)

Look, I do, no, no, absolutely bleeding or pooping. That's what I say. No, but yes, and I should maybe try, but Mike, I do try that. I think it's possible I should spend more time on it to get the older kids to babysit. But like, to be clear, my youngest is nine months old. Like it's just, she's still, like how long can they really? Yes, I think I should probably do it more than I do. The older kids aren't that into it. I do pay them. I do ask them.

JC (42:58.304)

-huh.

JC (43:11.871)

Mm -hmm.

JC (43:17.342)

Right.

JC (43:22.226)

Hmm, wow, funny. I wanna hear more about that because I feel like, know, I think about abstract things about raising kids, which I will never do, but I'm like, well, how would I handle this or that? And like, I think a lot about, you know, people are probably better off if it's like, okay, everybody's in this family, we are sharing duties. And like, I understand sometimes you have to incentivize kids because they just do not wanna do stuff and it's just not worth the trouble. But it's fascinating to me that you would

pay your kid to help out with childcare when it's like, we're a family unit, I need your help, I do s**t for you all day long, every day without any pay or whatever, you can watch the f*****g kids for two hours without me f*****g giving you money. You're a member of this family, you're not hired help. So yeah, how do you see it?

Divia (44:04.547)

Yes.

Nah, that's not how I see it at all, I'm like, I'm like, look, I could try to like guilt them into doing it, which I think is like, that's how I hear it when you say that. I'm like, I could be like, no, you owe it to me. You should feel guilty if you don't, therefore you should do it.

JC (44:17.626)

Mm. Mm.

JC (44:21.832)

just like, you know, we're a family unit, let's work together to make our lives work.

Divia (44:24.621)

But here's the thing. Here's the thing, though. I guess I have like two sort of things to say about that. One is I think below is so and what I'm like a radical in many ways with parenting and the things that I've mostly heard from people who tend to do things kind of how I do is that those sorts of arguments, I think, are pretty compelling sort of in the way they would be to like an adult, which again, I mean, obviously, like adults are sort of all over the map. By the time they're around teenagers.

JC (44:35.837)

Hmm

JC (44:49.767)

Right, right, right.

Divia (44:55.937)

Or maybe younger, depending on the kid. But the way I see it, and I'm sure, whatever, there's like so much individual variation. I'm not trying to like hate on anyone who does that. Like I think that can work well for some families. But it has never felt right to me. I'm like, they never agreed to that. And I don't think it intuitively feels right to them. And I've also had kids be like, yeah, on some level, I guess I should, but like, I really don't want to. So do you want me to just do it even though I don't want to? And your answer might be like, yes. And mine is like, no.

JC (45:25.726)

So it.

Divia (45:25.869)

Like I care so much more about them actually knowing themselves and being able to keep in touch with like what they really want. Like that's just more important to me. And plus like my, my BATNA, like my alternative, if they say no is first of all worse, like, and involves money. I'm like, this is a thing I have paid people to do before. I don't know. Yeah. Best alternative to negotiated agreement. Like that's what I'll do if they don't do it.

JC (45:33.159)

Yeah.

JC (45:44.977)

Mm -hmm. Did you say batsna?

JC (45:49.82)

my god. my god. Where the f**k does that acronym come from? I've never heard that in my life.

Divia (45:56.589)

think it's like a business. Yeah, this is the thing. So I hang out with rationalists and that's the sort of thing rationalists say all the time. No, but okay, you might think it's ridiculous, but you want people to be more direct with you. I'm like, hang out with rationalists. Maybe they will.

JC (46:00.113)

I know you do.

JC (46:08.04)

That's very funny. But yeah, mean, yeah, I mean, I'm always happy to meet new people, but I don't get the sense that the rationalist community is necessarily the place for me, but maybe I need to give it another try, you know? But, right. -huh.

Divia (46:12.057)

You

Divia (46:18.137)

No, no, no, it's probably not, but it is an advantage from my perspective. It also like, I think I have to say about the rationalist community is, and of course it's like sort of geographically different, whatever, whatever, but like it is kind of a community at all, which is something. Like, I feel like if there's like something goes wrong, like there's sort of like, you could send it, you could like sort of contact the rationalist community as a thing, like the same way, I don't know. I actually need to give all sorts of or something, but like.

JC (46:32.966)

Right, right, right, right, right.

JC (46:41.18)

Mm -hmm.

Divia (46:47.841)

that some things are communities and other things are not communities. And so I think it's worth something if something's a community at all.

JC (46:50.012)

Right, right, right, right. Yeah, for sure. And I just had a question, because I feel like a lot of people's theory is, yes, sometimes kids have to do things they don't want to do. How are you preparing? No, no, no, no, no. But how are you preparing them for real life if they never have to do anything they don't want to do? Because it's like, I don't want to work, but I work every day.

Divia (47:03.233)

I disagree, disagree, but yeah.

Divia (47:11.415)

Okay. Okay, but here's the thing. I think this is a semantic thing that you might be like, this is a dumb nitpick, but to me, it's extremely important. I think that it's a confusing way to put it to say that you don't want to work because you want the outcomes from working and that's why you do it.

JC (47:26.824)

Hmm.

JC (47:31.388)

Hmm. So you feel like I do want to work because I want what it brings?

Divia (47:36.801)

I mean, I think ultimately, it's sort of, like I'm not really into policing other people's language, but I am like, I would never really put it that way because it seems wrong to me. Like for sure a thing that seems true is you choose to work.

JC (47:47.39)

Hmm.

JC (47:51.836)

I feel that I have to because otherwise I couldn't pay my bills. So I do feel like if I came into a bunch of money, I don't know that I would work in the same way. You know? Yeah.

Divia (47:55.713)

Right. And so to clear.

Divia (48:00.963)

yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's how I was. Many people are like, I love my job. I do it even if and I'm like that. Yes. Yes, which I think it's most, which I think is, of course, sure, sure, So, but again, I'm like, you're doing it, though, because you want the result of it, which is like the paycheck and stuff.

JC (48:08.212)

There are things that I would do that are work, but not working at a job that I would prefer not to be doing. Yeah.

JC (48:23.735)

Mm

Divia (48:24.801)

And so my perspective on this is like, people seem to think that the natural way to explain to kids that sometimes you should do things because you want the result or if you don't do it, the result would be bad is to use like threats or guilt tripping from the parents. And I'm like, I just don't think that. I think it's different. Like I think these, my mom is gonna get mad at me if I don't, it's just so different from like, but I need money. That like, don't, to me they don't seem like the same thing.

JC (48:48.614)

Yeah, and I'm not saying those are the only options. For me, it would be like, I think it's worthwhile to talk to a kid about like, hey, we're a family unit. Everything works better if we all help out where we can.

Nobody wants to clean the toilet, but if somebody does it, everybody benefits. And like that's an act of service to our little community. And so, you I would really appreciate it if you would, you know, watch your little sister for two hours. And I know it's not always fun and I know maybe you don't want to do it. And I respect that you don't want to do it. And I'm sorry that I'm needing to ask you something that doesn't sound fun to you, but think of it as this is a nice thing I'm doing for mom and my little sister that's going to help my family. And it's not always about like, do I want to do it? It's like,

You probably don't want to do your laundry. You probably don't want to, you know, but you do it.

Divia (49:32.429)

So, okay, but yeah, see, I would never say any of those things. I'm like, I do wanna do my laundry so I have clean clothes. I do wanna clean the toilet so the toilet's clean.

JC (49:37.64)

Mm.

Okay. Okay. So why would it be inconceivable that your child might want to help their mom if that's how it was? Yeah. Okay.

Divia (49:47.151)

no, no, they do sometimes. Absolutely they do. Yeah, but the question is, what if they don't want to? Like, I think it's fine to make those sort of arguments. Like, look, it would be, and I'm not saying I never guilt trip my kids. If you ever listened to this, they're probably like, well, what about that time? You're like, but can't you just, whatever. but it's not really how I want to be doing things because...

JC (49:52.082)

Mm -hmm.

JC (50:02.59)

Hmm.

Divia (50:06.817)

for a few reasons. And one of them is, yeah, okay, fine. Let's say I give some speech like that. I would give it in my own words, which would be different from yours. It's super important to me to be like, and you know what? If you say no, I will respect that.

JC (50:13.598)

Mm

JC (50:20.006)

Mm -hmm. But are you also allowed to say, if you say no, I will respect it, but I will feel a little bit sad that you didn't want to help me?

Divia (50:20.889)

Because to me that's an important piece.

Divia (50:30.109)

sure, I mean think people sharing their feelings is good. And there definitely are times when I'm like, when I'm kinda like, yeah, you do what you want, but it doesn't feel good to me that that's what you're doing, for sure.

JC (50:32.316)

Right, right.

JC (50:41.082)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. And do they ever course correct then or are they just like, well, cool, you feel bad. Anyway, I'm doing me, you know, like.

Divia (50:47.737)

i they definitely care about it, though, like, you know, my two -year -old, like, you don't really understand what i'm talking about so it, like, depends on the kid

JC (50:51.772)

Right, right. what, -huh. And what I'm trying to understand is like, is the hard line that you will not cross, like is your goal to like never force your kids to do something they don't want to do even if one could say like, you're not abusing them by just asking them to perform a task that is helpful to the family, that is not harmful to them. Well, but that's what I'm saying is like, is your goal to never...

Divia (51:13.761)

No, but is it asking or is it demanding? Look, it's like.

JC (51:20.904)

to never have your kids do something they didn't wanna do as a result of you initiating that. Is that your goal?

Divia (51:28.363)

No, so look, to me, like none of these, like I just, I think the way you're talking about it is like very normal, but to me, it always strikes me as Orwellian. You're saying ask, and I'm like, no, I ask them to do stuff a million times a day, and they can say, no, that's what asking means. Otherwise it's like demanding or like threatening or like some other word. Like people will be like, my God, my kids don't listen to me. And I'm like, do you mean they don't listen or they don't obey you? Like.

JC (51:41.438)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

JC (51:51.9)

Right, right, right. But so, right.

Divia (51:53.281)

So I'm kind of like, let's be clear on what we're talking about first of all. So that's like one of my rants about this. But then another thing is like, there are absolutely some things where I'm like, don't, like, it doesn't really matter to me how you feel about this is what we have to do. And for me, in my family, this mostly comes up when people are toddlers and I'm like, no, you don't get to like kick other people. You don't get to take their stuff. don't get to like, like those two people are like the very basics, like other people and their stuff and their bodies, like it's up to them, right?

JC (52:13.62)

Mm

JC (52:22.287)

Sorry, there's a loud siren going by. Yeah.

Divia (52:23.777)

No, I miss it. You know, I don't know. Like, this is a messed up thing to say, because obviously somebody's hurt, but like, that's what I grew up with. Yeah, somebody's being helped.

JC (52:29.556)

Well, know what, somebody's being helped, know? Somebody's receiving services, you know? Somebody's in need and they're getting attention, you know? Yeah, no, because I have the kind of thought of like, when you were talking about it initially, I was like, but I would worry that if a kid... It's tough, because I love the idea of people not having to do stuff they don't want to do, but I worry about if you learn...

I don't have to do what I don't want to do. And then you go out into the world and people sometimes expect that of you in ways that are not sick. You know what I mean? Where it's just like, hey, could you hold the door for this person? It's like, I don't want to. And it's like, okay, well, society is starting to break down now. know, like, like.

Divia (53:11.609)

But again, that's the same type of thing like they and if if somebody doesn't do some basic thing for them Like people will get annoyed like that's the real world thing that happens like I might get annoyed their siblings will definitely like Might get annoyed. I'm sort of like I don't know. That's life like

JC (53:20.456)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Right, so do you feel like they kind of absorb the necessary lessons through being like, okay, I said no to this thing and then people were upset with me and I didn't like how that felt. So maybe in the future, I would consider doing a thing even though I don't love the idea of it, I understand that it kind of maintains my relationships and I want that.

Divia (53:40.781)

Look, I'm sure that sometimes happens, but to me, like, that's, that's not like a, it doesn't feel like the important part. Like to me, the important part of helping people thrive as people seems more like helping people build skills and like build understanding of the world and like understand things and like have options. And

JC (53:54.903)

Mm

JC (53:58.697)

Mm

Divia (53:59.831)

Like, is there a way for people to like hold the door that feels good to them? It's like, I think there's sort of, to many people I think it seems intuitive, like, let me like ramp up the negative motivation. Like, let me like really like make it clear to people what bad thing happens if you don't whatever. When like, I think the things that people do most consistently for the longest that they end up feeling good about it, and I know people are like, I don't know, some people can be very suspicious and disagree with, think, including for good reasons.

JC (54:09.997)

Mmm, yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Divia (54:26.957)

that type of focus, but I'm like, I just think that that is actually mostly what really works. Like, for example, like, how many people do I know? It's like so taboo, but then people will talk about it they'll be like, yeah, yeah, like my parents maybe like floss, but do I floss now? No, I don't floss.

JC (54:31.156)

No, I agree that like

JC (54:42.076)

Right, right, because you want to rebel and do what you want, even though flossing is good for you or whatever.

Divia (54:46.709)

Or not necessarily, or they're just like, because I didn't really want to do it. The only reason I was doing it was because they were like hassling me, and now Noh's hassling me, and like... I don't... I don't know.

JC (54:53.128)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Yeah, no, I agree that like, think positive reinforcement and also making sure a child understands like, what is the value of this? Because I feel like people are often like, do it! And like, you know, just with the anger and the threat and the negativity. And so a child feels like, I don't understand why I'm supposed to be doing this and I'm not doing it, you know?

Divia (55:06.613)

You

Divia (55:12.759)

And sometimes they don't really know how. like, it's sort of a weird thing to say. there's, I don't know. Have you heard of the anti -psychiatry movement?

JC (55:23.216)

No! What is that?

Divia (55:27.213)

Like Thomas Sass, I've never actually read his stuff. I've just read people who talk about him, but he's kind of like look this whole like framing things as like people can't what so he's I don't get into it you but like a Thing that people sometimes talk about is like, okay, you say you like can't do it or like whatever but like gun to head Could you do it if someone were like no, really I'm gonna like shoot you if you don't do it Then could you and all for the answer is like, of course then they could like call you back or whatever even though what they're saying It's like no, I can't I don't know how to But

JC (55:51.402)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Divia (55:55.481)

But again, think that that type of, the way I see it is that most of these things that rely on like negative social motivations are not necessarily very robust.

behaviors. And I also don't think it's just and I'm sort of like a geek about like behaviorism in general. So I'm like, yeah, positive reinforcement, like whatever. To me, the thing is more like actual behavioral fluency, like being really if something is easy. So like, you it's another like, I don't know, I think really you are pretty online, but I think we're like very online in different ways. So have you seen the discourse about like ADHD, people can't build habits? Okay, well, I don't think it's true. There's a discourse about that. No, no, I don't think it's true.

JC (56:14.866)

Hmm.

JC (56:28.861)

Hmm.

JC (56:33.084)

No. So that's literally what it is. It's just like they cannot. Yeah.

Divia (56:39.149)

But it's like something people say. I think, something I certainly identify with is people be like, just like do it every day for a month. And then you like won't even notice I'm doing it. You just keep doing it. And I'm like, yeah, maybe some people, some things for sure. But it rarely happens to me that way. don't know. Do you think that happens that way for you?

JC (56:54.676)

Wait, are you the 927 millionth person in my life with ADHD that I didn't know had it?

Divia (57:01.145)

I don't, I don't, so okay, I have a whole thing to say about that too. I don't identify as having ADHD. never, I don't think I would meet diagnostic criteria. I identify with some of the things and not other things. I tried quizzing people. I'd ask some people in my life. Yeah, I asked some people in my life. I'm like, do you think I have ADHD? Some of were like, yeah, definitely. Some of them were like, no, of course not. So I don't know.

JC (57:10.259)

Yeah.

Mm -hmm. It's like astrology.

JC (57:23.048)

I would never think of that for you, but that's interesting. yeah.

Divia (57:25.049)

I don't really either, though when I look back, so this isn't a side, I will get back to my other point about habits, but when I look back through my life and like me comparing myself to my friends, I'm like, wow. A thing for me about getting older, I don't know if this happens to everyone, is I'm like, at every stage of my life, I did not realize until so many years later, maybe I still don't realize it now, how much I was selecting in my friends for people who were the same kind of weird that I was.

JC (57:54.174)

Doesn't everybody do that? I mean like.

Divia (57:56.109)

Yeah, but it was more than I thought.

JC (57:59.645)

So like you were prioritizing similar weirdness over what? Like compatibility or whatever?

Divia (58:07.819)

Well, no, I think it created compatibility. So I think not over compatibility, but I didn't realize how much of that was good. And I thought more of it was like random too, I think, like especially like, I'm like, but like, we're just like physically, like we were in the same dorm or we were whatever, like we're in the same school. Like I just thought more of it was sort of incidental. Like here's a perfect example. I made a bunch of friends years ago in the baby wearing community and there.

JC (58:15.347)

Hmm.

JC (58:33.906)

Baby wearing. Yeah, just like wear instead of like putting in a stroller or something. It's hilarious.

Divia (58:35.573)

Yeah, it's like you have like baby carriers. Yeah, yeah, and there was like a forum. was yeah and

And at first I was like, okay, like normally I meet friends this way, but this one, the only major filter is like, do they like baby wearing? And then I'm like, no, that's, frankly, I'm like, no, no, that's not true. They're like, do they like these particular types of discussions and probably have kids with this type of sensory need and like to geek out about fabric and really prefer written communication? I'm like, okay, no, no, no. Like this actually looks super filtered. It makes sense that we're all similar types of nerd. I mean, not, and like, not literally all, but like the filters for are we the same type of neurodivergent were more than I

JC (58:49.636)

huh.

JC (59:03.379)

Wow.

Divia (59:12.396)

and I think this has been true at every point in my life, including when we were in school together.

JC (59:15.154)

Yeah. Hmm. Interesting. That's funny. so the hyperforming.

Divia (59:19.949)

So anyway, so yeah, no, I don't identify as ADHD, but let me go back to the habits thing. yeah, cause I think this is also something that often comes into the people are like, we'll just like do it over and over and over with their kids. And then they just like, we'll just automatically do it. And I'm like, maybe like for sure. So sometimes things work that way, but for me it doesn't. I'm like, I do load the dishwasher at night and every time I'm like, I could, or I could not.

JC (59:33.256)

Hmm.

Divia (59:44.129)

I could, or I just didn't feel like I'm just automatically doing it, but then I do it, where something is like, do you legitimately feel automatic? I'm like, do I turn off the sink when I'm done using it? Yeah, like don't even think about that.

JC (59:53.35)

Yeah, no, I feel like things like unloading the dishwasher, like anything that feels like, I could do that, but I could also not. Anybody struggles to just or like has to take a moment to be like, OK, I'm deciding to do this. I'm not just automatically.

Divia (01:00:04.621)

Do it!

No, that's what I thought, but then I listened to podcasts and YouTube videos and whatever, and I hear people talking about it, and if that's how it is for them, that's not how they say it. They're like, no, then we just automatically, and I don't even notice, and then people say that a lot.

JC (01:00:21.682)

Hmm. Interesting. I think people are also unreliable narrators and don't, they're not good witnesses of themselves, you know? So it's like they could say that, but really they're just not noticing that they made a conscious choice or that they were like, I gotta unload the dishwasher. I don't want to. I gotta do it. Okay, I'm doing it. You know I mean? Like, I don't know. I feel like, yeah.

Divia (01:00:26.585)

Yeah.

Divia (01:00:42.649)

Yeah, people are also really different. So it's hard for me to tell. And I will ask, I'll be like, okay, like friends, like, I'll be like, I brush my teeth, like, but like, are there any days in the last month you didn't? And some people are like, my God, I would never miss a day ever. I do it every morning and every night. And I'm like, no, I probably do it like 90 % of the time. And I'm like, my teeth feel gross. I should go do it. I don't know, I'm like, maybe I'm not supposed to admit that, but.

JC (01:00:46.291)

Mm -hmm.

JC (01:00:59.725)

Hmm. Mm -hmm, mm -hmm.

JC (01:01:07.186)

Yeah. No, it's fine. Yeah.

Divia (01:01:09.239)

I really do do it a lot, but it doesn't feel automatic to me. And I think when I ask other people, they're like, no, no, it's just super automatic, which is maybe how I feel again about like turning off the sink when I've done or like flushing the toilet. Like I don't think I ever forgot to flush the toilet. And I wouldn't be like, but I kind of want to this time. I just like do it. It's like not a thing. And so I think some people are more like that about more things in their life.

JC (01:01:20.463)

Right, right.

JC (01:01:24.72)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

JC (01:01:30.185)

But it's also like a strong incentive of like the smell of poop you want to go away or you don't want someone to see your poop or also you know like your teeth feel gross you like them to stop feeling gross and that happens cyclically every single day you know.

Divia (01:01:40.501)

Yeah, but for - no, for sure, but for me it's different. Like, I actually sort of think about it with the teeth, whereas, like, the other one is just, like, the flushing of the toilet, I'm like, I don't even - it doesn't even cross my mind.

JC (01:01:53.298)

But I wonder, mean, this is gonna be a ridiculous conversation, but like, if you just farted into the toilet bowl, you wouldn't automatically flush. You're flushing because there's an evidence that smells bad that's gonna keep smelling bad unless you flush it away, you know?

Divia (01:01:56.491)

That was so funny.

Divia (01:02:06.231)

Well, okay, so...

You know you say that, but I don't think it would require extreme effort for me to sit on the toilet and not pee.

JC (01:02:18.608)

Even if you didn't really have to go? Like even if you just peed, if you sit back on the toilet right away, you will pee again? Hmm.

Divia (01:02:20.313)

Correct. all... Basically, yeah. I mean, if it was literally like 10 seconds ago, like not exactly, but I would also like, it just comes up so rarely. I'm like, why would I ever do that?

JC (01:02:32.666)

Mm -hmm. Well, toilets do be for peeing and pooping, you know? It's not somewhere you're just gonna hang out and read a book without thinking you also have to pee or poop, you know? Not a very comfortable chair.

Divia (01:02:38.243)

Yeah.

Divia (01:02:42.773)

Anyway, all right. Sorry. So part of the reason I was getting into this is I do, I guess, I do wonder if this explains some different in parenting philosophy because parents, I think many seem to have the model, at least how they talk about it. Like, I just like force my kids to do the things and then that'll just be automatically what they do. And I'm like, I don't know, that didn't work for me. It never has really worked for me in any. And I think my kids are at least kind of like me. And so.

JC (01:03:01.618)

Mm -hmm

JC (01:03:09.629)

Mm

Divia (01:03:11.201)

That's one reason it doesn't appeal to me very much. Unless, I guess, unless it's about something very, like it's true that that is probably more the sort of rhetoric. If my kid was like, but I don't want to flush the toilet. I'd probably be like, look, just do it. Like, just do it. And then it'd be done. I probably would be more like that. And if they didn't, then I would just do it and whatever. Like, I don't know. But it does make me wonder if that's like a material difference in why people do things differently.

JC (01:03:23.912)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

JC (01:03:34.898)

Hmm. Yeah, I think a lot of people are not very thoughtful about why they do the things they do. I feel like, you know, I always joke like the motto of America should not be E Pluribus Unum. It should be I never think about that. Because like every motherfucker you talk to, you're like, but what about this? And they're like, I never think about that. And you're like, this is why we are where we are. Because nobody's thinking, you know? And it's like, I feel like I think more than.

95 % of people, it doesn't mean that I'm better or smarter. It's just that I'm thinking about these things. Because everybody I talk to, I'm like, but what about this? And like, never think about that. I've never thought about that. How did you even think of that? You know?

Divia (01:04:10.657)

Yeah, OK, so all right. So I also, I think I'm thinking a lot. Let me, one of our things on our ideas for what to talk about is, so we both did go to Harvard and one might think, that's like a place with a bunch of people who really like to think. I think that's sort of true and it's sort of not true. what's your, like, I don't know, what do you think about that?

JC (01:04:14.461)

Yeah.

JC (01:04:19.015)

Mm.

JC (01:04:24.5)

Mmm.

JC (01:04:30.46)

Well, I always say some of my favorite people in the world to talk to are people who went to Harvard because there's just some quality of the conversation that I just don't experience with people who didn't go there. I don't know if it's just like people of a certain intelligence level in general, and then plus the added familiarity of like, we both have a shared experience in a shared place or whatever. yeah.

Divia (01:04:53.787)

wait, just to check though, do you mean like if the person went to like Princeton, you're like, no, doesn't count.

JC (01:04:58.512)

No, no, no, I'm saying any highly intelligent person, and I feel like I've not met somebody from like a Harvard or Princeton or Stanford or whatever level institution or just somebody who's very smart in a certain way where I'm like, this person doesn't think, you know, I can't think of an instance where I've interacted with somebody that seems to be highly intelligent or have some kind of pedigree of like, I am smart, you know, where I'm like, this person is not smart at all, you know.

Divia (01:05:09.176)

Yeah.

Divia (01:05:14.179)

Okay.

Divia (01:05:24.429)

Yeah.

JC (01:05:28.818)

But so you're saying, your original question was, do I think everybody from Harvard tends to think kind of deeply about things?

Divia (01:05:32.791)

Yeah!

Divia (01:05:36.323)

Yeah.

JC (01:05:40.712)

I mean, it's funny because I'm...

Divia (01:05:43.171)

You

JC (01:05:44.274)

You know, the person that I had the conversation where he was like, why is my friend mad at me for being absent from her life? It's like, I don't think you'd be thinking ho. Like, wow, that's a dumb ass thing to say. But also it's like, it's just a different conception of friendship of like, there is no expectation and I owe this person nothing. That's what friendship is. And it's like, you're wrong, or at least you and your friend have a different conception of it and you're not even thinking about that. And I find your actions pretty thoughtless and pretty selfish, you know?

Divia (01:05:49.805)

That was, yeah, right.

Divia (01:05:59.586)

Right.

JC (01:06:13.63)

But anyway.

JC (01:06:18.482)

Hmm, I guess, you I think the reason I think so much is that I have a lot of time and space for it in a way that other people don't, or I make time and space for it, where it's like, instead of packing my life with like work and family and this and that and whatever, it's like, I have hours every day to just go take a walk by myself and just think, you know? And I think a lot of people don't either make that space or have that space. And that's something I thought a lot about is like,

Divia (01:06:44.643)

Thank

JC (01:06:45.116)

I think I have more time and space to think than the vast majority of other people because other people pack their lives with s**t that makes it hard to think. And it doesn't occur to them to think about stuff, you know?

Divia (01:06:53.817)

Sorry, it was just funny to me. again, he'll probably never listen to this, but I was talking to my nine -year -old the other day and he was like, he was like saying something to me and I'm like, but the middle of something and he was like, it doesn't look like you are in the middle of something. And I was like, no, but I'm like thinking about something. And he was sort of like, and I was like, you realize like basically all of the time I'm thinking about something. And he was kind of like, no, I didn't know that.

JC (01:07:11.805)

Hahaha

JC (01:07:18.804)

That's funny. Do you think he's a thinker?

Divia (01:07:23.713)

Yeah, yeah, no, I think so. But like, I don't know, people, like, especially kids, don't often necessarily spend a ton of time about, what other people are doing in their own heads.

JC (01:07:31.346)

Right, right, right, right. Do you feel that your kids are like going to be well prepared for going out in the world?

Divia (01:07:41.817)

Who knows? I mean, I hope so. I think some of them, I'm more like, yeah, I think we're probably, yeah, I don't know. I hope so. I'm trying my best. think certainly we're doing something pretty non -traditional, but like honestly, don't, it's not so much I'm like, my thing, I think it's definitely gonna whatever. It's more like I'm like, well, the traditional thing I think doesn't necessarily prepare people either. So kind of a low bar maybe.

JC (01:08:05.876)

Mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What is your, like, do you have an expectation or a hope of, each of them will leave the home by 22 and support themselves and, live in a certain way and whatever, or is it just, like, as long as they're alive and happy, I do not care about anything else?

Divia (01:08:24.725)

Look, I definitely want them to be able to support themselves for sure and have jobs and stuff and I talk to them about that. I don't personally, at least like not currently, I'm currently not like and I hope they leave the house. I'm currently more like and I hope they stay in the house if possible. I mean, probably not, but like my guess is that I'm going to be more enthusiastic about them staying longer than they are.

JC (01:08:30.366)

Mm

JC (01:08:40.87)

Hmm... forever?

Mm

JC (01:08:49.192)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Divia (01:08:49.773)

Which is, I don't know, that's what my mom always said to me. She was kind of like, hope you live here forever. And then eventually I left and... I don't know.

JC (01:08:54.47)

Interesting. Yeah, no, it's funny. It's funny to me how many parents seem to be uncomfortable with like the nature of like raising the baby birds and then letting them fly out of the nest, you know, like they're like, well, no, but the baby bird should stay in the nest. And it's like, not really. They're adult birds now. Yeah.

Divia (01:09:06.399)

But I don't think it was... No, no, no. Okay. That's not what I think. I don't think it's that they're uncomfortable with it. I'm just like, I like them. Like, I like having them around. And like, in some cultures, it's normal for kids to stay with their parents longer if they want to. I don't know. I really don't think it's uncomfortable with them leaving. I'm more like, it just seems cool. If they want to be there. I don't know. For the same reason it's... Yeah, I don't know. That's how I see it.

JC (01:09:14.386)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. -hmm. Yeah.

JC (01:09:25.8)

Mm -hmm.

JC (01:09:30.674)

Yeah. No, it's interesting. you know, something I think about all the time and talk about a fair amount is like, I love New York and I want to be here, but I also specifically do not want to be very far away from my parents, especially as they get older. I feel like, you know, I'm uncomfortable with that. I, it's like, you could say whatever you want to say about it, but it's like, I feel...

a sense of duty and care towards my mom, especially because she's on her own and she's in this stage of her life where she has helped greatly by having a family member nearby, me, who will go over and help her when she needs it. And my dad is partnered. it only occurred to me recently, like, good God, thank God for my stepmom because she can take care of my dad and I can take care of my mom. And I don't have to take care of both of them because she's there.

Divia (01:10:05.005)

Mm

Divia (01:10:13.24)

Yeah.

Divia (01:10:21.347)

Mm

Divia (01:10:27.214)

Yeah.

JC (01:10:27.484)

And if my mom had a caring partner, I would be a little bit more off the hook, but she doesn't. So I do have to step up because I do care. So it's interesting to me, and I don't know if you want to share any thoughts about this or whatever, but how many people are like, nope, gotta go. And it's like, yeah, but your parents are getting really old and they're really far away. And it's like, well, I gotta go. it's like, think there's like, yeah, there's nothing like.

Divia (01:10:33.389)

Right.

Totally.

Divia (01:10:50.423)

No, I hear you.

JC (01:10:52.968)

wrong with that? Because I feel like there is the thing of like, we should all be free to live our own lives. And I feel like you put a person in the world to allow them to live their own life. And that could mean that they go halfway across the world and never see you again, because that's their life that you gave them to live. But as I don't know if we were talking about this before we started recording or not, but the whole thing of, we have this culture now where it's so the norm to like,

move for school, move for a job, move for a partner, move for a life circumstance, move, move, move, move, like not necessarily be close to your family and your people and your hometown and whatever. So I don't know, do you wanna share any thoughts about like your decisions to go far away and how that's been?

Divia (01:11:32.749)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, obviously I did move and I didn't think I would. Like, I always thought that I would stay in New York and if I had kids, I'd do it in New York and that's what I thought. But then and I think there's like more than one way to tell any story, including this story. Like I moved to San Francisco to try to work on a startup with some friends. I didn't really end up doing it. They did whatever I in my.

JC (01:11:57.385)

Right.

Divia (01:12:00.899)

personal narrative, this sort of, at least one of the moments that I was like, I'm gonna go there. I was working, so I did move back to New York after college and I was living with my mom and I had various jobs and things and at the time I was working.

JC (01:12:10.44)

Mm

Divia (01:12:19.073)

I like, it's actually, at first I was working for the mom of a friend we went to school with, but then I quit that job and I was doing some other stuff, some like programming type stuff. Anyway, I remember I was watching a video of the C -Studying Conference. don't know, do you know what C -Studying is? Because of me. Yeah, yeah, of course, right. Anyway, and I remember just like, and I've been reading, I sort of had finally found the part of the internet with the people that were like even more like me, like the.

JC (01:12:35.154)

Hmm. Well, because of you, yes.

Divia (01:12:48.193)

rationalist, transhumanist, libertarian, whatever, like those type of people. Like I found some of their blogs and stuff. And I was watching the Ceaseless Conference and I was kind of like, I have to go there. Like that's where they all are. Like that's sort of my, those are like more like my people. And not, I'm sorry, not like more like my people than my family are. Like I don't mean it like that at all. Like my family are my people in a totally different way. But like that's where I could find intellectual connection.

JC (01:13:03.998)

Hmm.

JC (01:13:11.207)

Mm

Divia (01:13:16.375)

And I did, and it was like not even close. And to me, this is sort of, guess it makes sense to me you would have emphasized different parts of it, but I'm like, yeah, I went to Harvard and like everyone was really smart for sure. Especially like, I don't know, I mean, or like especially in a particular way, like everyone I met in computer science department, I'm like, wow, your mind is like really impressive. But my experience there was that most people didn't really care about ideas.

JC (01:13:34.963)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

JC (01:13:46.388)

So what do you mean by that? Like they just wanted to absorb information but they didn't want to create ideas or like?

Divia (01:13:51.577)

No, I don't know. like, and I really like no shade on anyone. Like I think people should do what they want. But my impression of most of the people I knew from Harvard was more like they care about their thing and being successful at their thing. And when we went, did you go to the 10 year reunion? You did, right? I think I saw you there. Yeah. That was the only one I went to. And then I guess the COVID messed up the anyway.

JC (01:14:05.99)

Yeah. Yeah.

JC (01:14:10.962)

Yeah, the 15th reunion was a trip. my God. I could talk to you about that, but anyway, go on.

Divia (01:14:15.161)

Okay. Yeah, anyway, I remember meeting up with everyone and I was sort of like, okay, like everyone seems cool more than I thought everyone has succeeded.

JC (01:14:28.424)

Hmm. You didn't expect.

Divia (01:14:30.285)

Including it with, no, no, I just didn't think about it one way the other and like sort of including it like the different things. So then he's like, well I make like a zillion dollars in an investment bank. I'm like, okay. And somebody's looking, I'm like the best at making these particular types of weird art installations in the world. And I'm like, awesome. so, like, I don't know. It's just like what they wanted to do. It seemed like they mostly had gone and done it, which I don't take for granted when I meet people in other parts of my life that if they're like have some crazy thing they're really into, then they're going to really go do it. But I feel like the Harvard people mostly did do it.

JC (01:14:58.462)

Hmm.

Divia (01:14:59.181)

I don't know if that's, again, you may have had a different experience. That's sort of the general vibe I got from the reunion. But then when I sort of ask people, it seems like there's some activity that rationalists are usually up to that's like a certain type of like trying to make sense of everything in the world. That like the people I know from Harvard just mostly weren't that into that activity.

JC (01:15:15.123)

Hmm.

JC (01:15:19.152)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. I mean, yeah, rationalists definitely seem to be like a different breed than everybody else, you know? And I feel like, yeah, there's a lot of Harvard people where it's like, I'm just going to have the conventional picture of success. I'm going to get married, have children, make a lot of money, buy a nice house, you know, like...

Divia (01:15:24.707)

Yeah.

Divia (01:15:36.505)

Also, sorry, like, I think you, like, from your angle, it would make sense. You'd be like, they're gonna get married and have children. And I'm like, yeah. And you know what? At the 10 -year reunion, it seemed like I was the only one with kids. Because I think, again, I had it earlier. And they're like gonna have children at the exact normal time for like our social class and culture and whatever.

JC (01:15:53.812)

How old were you when you had Lydia then? guess 27? No. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because...

Divia (01:15:57.273)

I was 28, which is not even late. And I was one of the first from the school we went to growing up too. And there were, I think there were two other people that had kids before I did there.

JC (01:16:09.96)

Yeah, was Maxine and Liz. W? -huh. -huh.

Divia (01:16:14.905)

Yeah. Mm -hmm. think so. Unless I'm missing somebody. But I, and again, I'm like, and the depression I got at the time when I got pregnant when I was 27 is people were like, my God, that's so early. And I'm like, is it though? Is it though? No, but like it's, I guess so, but yeah.

JC (01:16:28.668)

Yes. For our cohort, yes. Yeah. I mean, feel like one of the... Or they're trying and failing because it's too late. Biologically, it's really difficult. That's an interesting thing that I'm witnessing right now is people's really horrible fertility journeys that are really making them suffer as late 30s and early 40s people.

Divia (01:16:38.593)

And now everyone has kids, it's true. Basically. Yeah, there's some of that. Yeah.

Divia (01:16:53.891)

Yeah.

JC (01:16:58.244)

And yeah, and also the whole thing of people kind of realizing like, God, maybe this isn't gonna happen for me. And like, what do I do now? Cause like that was the plan and it's not gonna happen for me. And I'm kind of as a child free person who loves their friends and wants to keep time with their friends. It's like, I want my friends to be happy and get what they want. And I feel terrible for people that are like, I want a child desperately and it's not gonna happen for me because I think about for myself. Like if somebody told me like,

Divia (01:17:08.865)

Right. Yeah.

JC (01:17:27.824)

something has changed, like, you know, if I lost my singing voice, it's like, it would f*****g suck. Like, I want to sing and my body may not let me and that would really suck, you know? So I definitely feel for them, but the selfish part of me or the part of me that's like, yeah, but how does this affect me? Is like, I hope that in five years, if it hasn't happened for people, that they've made peace with it and they're gonna move on and not have kids, you know? And we can just put this to bed, you know? Because again, it's like, I wish that

Divia (01:17:31.159)

Right. Yeah.

JC (01:17:58.13)

I just wish that we lived in a way where whether you have kids or not, you can show up as a friend, but we don't live in that world. It's like even without kids, people can't show up as friends. But with kids, it's so much harder for many people to show up as friends, which is why I really appreciate that I can talk to you and that you do keep space for friend talks. But also I have an assumption with five kids, it's like, don't expect that of you. And I don't know, is it, know.

Divia (01:18:25.917)

But it's like, okay, that said, like, I don't have a job. So like... No, it is a lot of... Yeah, no, no, absolutely, and I don't want to be dismissive, but I'm like, at the same time, like, almost everybody has a lot of commitments in their life. I don't know, I don't...

JC (01:18:29.076)

But you'd be like, five kids. That's like six jobs. You do have the job of mother and homemaker and that's like, know? Right.

JC (01:18:44.552)

Mm -hmm, mm -hmm, mm -hmm. But I feel like there's this idea or just this reality that when most people who have kids have them, there just isn't space in their lives for their child -free friends anymore because the adults they're socializing with are their partner, their family, and other parents, because they get their kids together and do kid s**t. And then there's just nothing left for anybody else because they're exhausted.

Divia (01:19:05.698)

Yeah.

JC (01:19:12.914)

So it totally makes sense, but I've always taken it as like, I know it's not personal and it's not about me or any of their other friends that don't have kids, but it is this kind of statement of like, hey, my life is moving in a different direction, goodbye, you know? And it's like, what if I said, know, it's like, feel like something I say all the time is like, I designed my life to have time and space and flexibility partially so that I could see other people.

Divia (01:19:13.495)

Yeah.

Divia (01:19:28.131)

All right.

JC (01:19:38.002)

and I feel like nobody else did that, so maybe I shouldn't have done that, but I didn't know nobody else was gonna do that. So I did it because I wanted to see people, and now I can't, because nobody else did it, so now I'm like, okay, I guess I should take my time back and go work or go travel the world or do whatever, because nobody wants my time. So I guess I'll take it back, you know?

Divia (01:19:38.519)

Okay.

Divia (01:19:56.257)

It is, and everyone, it's, I don't know, the whole thing seems tragic to me because again, like everyone said, not everyone, but so many people say they're lonely, including people with kids say that too.

JC (01:20:00.254)

Mm -hmm.

JC (01:20:04.484)

Mm -hmm, mm -hmm, mm -hmm, mm -hmm. But it's like, okay, but if you never call me, and I'm not saying you, I'm saying like my friends with kids, it's like, you know that your buddy JC has asked you a trillion times to talk and hang out. You know that, you know I don't have a partner, you know I don't have kids, you know I have a flexible schedule. I have shown up that way throughout this entire friendship, and again, I'm not saying you and me, I'm saying me and these people. And so it's like, you know, but again,

Divia (01:20:10.541)

Yeah. No, I know.

Divia (01:20:28.91)

Yeah.

JC (01:20:32.148)

being number 697 on the priority list. don't, you know, it's like, I don't think of everybody all the time. So I shouldn't expect that all my friends would think of me specifically, you know?

Divia (01:20:39.577)

I guess, no, but there's something, it's... And I don't know, like, I definitely have a category in my head that so many people are in that's like, okay, this person's flaky. And you're not. Like, it's not, and I think that flakiness is not mostly about, like... I mean, to be clear, it's great about being proactive, but I think it's pretty, like, there's so many people I know that they can tell me, like, I'm coming over to hang out in a couple hours.

JC (01:20:50.374)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Divia (01:21:09.217)

And I'll be like, meh, better not make any plans around that.

JC (01:21:12.943)

Mm because you know they won't show up or they'll show up way later than they say

Divia (01:21:14.945)

Or they might, or they, who knows? Like, they might show up. I'd usually be like thrilled if they did, but like, but I can't, and sometimes I've, yeah, and they're like, like I do try to, like I think it's better for them if I don't count on them at all, because then I'm not resentful, but it definitely is like a different sort of relationship.

JC (01:21:21.374)

Mm

JC (01:21:33.63)

Mm

JC (01:21:37.244)

Yeah. And this is why we need direct communication where like somebody should say, I have this idea that I would like to come over, but I don't know if I can follow through. And then you can be like, okay, well, I'm leaving my house at 5pm. So if you're not here before then, I'm not going to see you. And that's it. You know, like this wishy washy b******t is insane.

Divia (01:21:51.033)

Yeah, and I don't... There's something I don't... I mean, I can try to like inhabit the space, but I think I don't really relate to it that much. I mean, I don't know. I definitely like, I don't know. Last night I was like, yeah, I think I'll probably be free at seven. And then like my food was late and I was free at like seven ten. And I'm like, yeah, I probably should have said like probably by seven fifteen because like half the time something happens. But I think it's... I don't know.

JC (01:22:13.257)

Mm

JC (01:22:22.492)

Yeah, I'm always thinking like, what can be done about this? Like I've said often, like, if there was an app that would help you do all the back and forth in order to meet up with your friends, you didn't have to do it. The app would just figure out here's when JC is free, here's when Divya is free, here's a type of food they both like. Like what? I've never heard of it.

Divia (01:22:39.843)

But they have those apps, right? and maybe not about the food, but they have like a doodle poll and stuff for like picking times.

JC (01:22:48.198)

Yeah, but I'm talking about, know, like it would have to be so beyond that because it's like, is Divya in the mood to see J .C. specifically at this time? You know what I mean? And then it's like, will she be somewhere in town where she can go to this restaurant and not that restaurant? And like, you know.

Divia (01:22:56.855)

yeah, fair enough, yeah.

Divia (01:23:02.177)

Okay, so this is like, if we have AI assistance, maybe. I do wonder if that's where the world is going, that like in a couple years, everyone's just going to be like, have your eye talk to my AI and it'll set us up. Yeah, maybe.

JC (01:23:12.606)

I mean, maybe, but also I feel like I wouldn't be surprised if people start to create new paradigms of like, you know, the old way wasn't working, here's how we're gonna do it going forward, where it's like, we need to make communal living structures. know, people need to make peace with the fact of like, no, you're not gonna move six times for your career if you want quality relationships. You're gonna live in your intentional community and you're gonna stay there.

and you're going to work remotely if you have to or whatever, you know, like, and not in terms of coercion, but just in terms of people realizing like, it just doesn't work.

Divia (01:23:40.483)

We did it.

Divia (01:23:44.02)

Yeah,

But the thing is, is that, and this is, think, my top question is, like, but is that what people would really choose if they had the choice? I can't tell. Yeah.

JC (01:23:54.672)

some people, not everybody. know? I think, well, you know, yeah, it's hard to know what people would do under ideal circumstances because we'll never have that. Like, you know, I was saying to my cousin earlier today, like, a lot of the people that I know who identify as introverts who like quote unquote hate people, I wonder if they would feel that way if they were relaxed and not stressed out and like provided for.

and got to choose who they spend time with. Yeah, yeah, and got to choose who they spend time with instead of spending at least 40 hours a week with people they don't care about and who they find kind of annoying partially because they spend 40 hours a week with them, you know, doing something other than socializing, you know? And I feel like a lot of people who are like, when I get off of work, I don't want to talk to anybody. It's like, well, that probably wouldn't be true if you had not spent your day with people you don't like doing things you don't want to do, you know?

Divia (01:24:17.185)

Right. much of it is like anxiety, basically?

Divia (01:24:29.111)

Right.

Divia (01:24:43.137)

Yeah, and I also wonder, like, so this is another... I think I was... It's probably in some ways just me being slow, but also like maybe a real difference or something.

When I was maybe like 25 or so, I was hanging out with one of my friends and she asked me, she was sort of like, like she asked me something and I was like, what are you gonna talk about or whatever? And she was like, I wanna talk about the thing, whatever the thing is that's actually on your mind. Like that's what I would prefer to talk about. And I was kind of like, whoa, I don't think anybody, like never occurred to me that anyone would be interested in that.

JC (01:25:12.733)

haha

JC (01:25:17.02)

instead of just like having a thing they wanted to talk about whether you wanted to or not or something.

Divia (01:25:21.599)

Or like, and I don't know, like she probably just managed to say it to me in a way that I really heard it. But like, instead of just talking about what's normal or like some sort of more obviously approved topic, like, I don't know. And so I think like, I do also, and I think like, whatever, like Will is actually introverted.

JC (01:25:30.696)

or like what's going on or.

JC (01:25:44.464)

Ew.

Divia (01:25:44.595)

people don't know it. That it's interesting. People think he's an extrovert and he does make plans and he knows more people than I do. But anyway, I think real introversion is a thing. I also unfortunately, and I let's talk to people even before it occurred to me that I like it was more possible to talk about the things that were really important to me. But then that's and again, this is like a big discourse too. There's like

JC (01:25:57.218)

Mm -hmm, unfortunately.

Divia (01:26:13.901)

How do you get past small talk versus people being like, no, no, we need small talk. Small talk is great. How arrogant of you to think that you should skip it. Whatever. There's like a whole thing, but.

JC (01:26:18.098)

Mm -hmm.

JC (01:26:21.446)

Yeah. I mean, people have all these ideas about what's allowed and what's not allowed. And like, you can ask people real questions. You know, it's like I do it all the time. And then people will be like, Whoa, that's kind of deep. And I'm like, but I always give people an out. I'm like, you don't have to answer this if you don't want to, but I'm interested to know blah, blah, blah. And I find that when I say that people just tell me the answer. Nobody has ever been like, I don't want to talk about that, but they could. And they're not coerced. They're like, wow. Well, yeah, here are my thoughts. And I'm like, great. We're in it. You know,

Divia (01:26:29.763)

Yeah.

Divia (01:26:34.381)

Yeah.

Divia (01:26:43.565)

Yeah.

JC (01:26:50.632)

But you know, it's like, there's lots of, like, it's funny. I feel like one of the most frequent exchanges I have with my mom is her saying, well, I wonder about this, but I can't ask them that. And I'm like, you actually can. You're just telling yourself that you can't, or you don't know how to ask it in a way that's gentle and thoughtful. But like, people want you to give a s**t, and they often want to share if you give them a safe space to share, you know?

Divia (01:27:02.849)

Right?

Divia (01:27:11.885)

Yeah.

Divia (01:27:17.965)

Yeah.

JC (01:27:19.166)

So I recommend that people ask what they wanna ask, just be gentle and thoughtful about it, or like read the room if it's like, obviously somebody's not in the mindset for it, then don't, but like.

Divia (01:27:20.665)

.

Divia (01:27:24.451)

Well, and also, like... When, as you say, it's like with the other thing, like... And if people actually don't want to do that, then probably better to find out now, because...

JC (01:27:34.238)

Mm

Divia (01:27:36.673)

I do want to this sort of relationship. there's some people that maybe, they're part of my life for some instrumental reason. I just want to, like, keep the piece or something. But mostly if I want to hang out with someone a lot, I'd rather it actually be interesting, including for me.

JC (01:27:48.668)

Mm And also, like, I always wonder how, like, if you're somebody who thinks you can't ask people anything, how often are people walking away from an interaction with you being like, I told her I had an illness and she had no follow -up questions? What the f**k? You know? Like, I said that because I wanted her to say, like, I'm so sorry. What happened? Are you okay? And she just didn't. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. I mean, there's, you know, it's like, it's, you know, different strokes for different folks. I think there's people who are very

Divia (01:28:08.291)

Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

JC (01:28:17.908)

private and enigmatic and whatever. But I find that I think probably one of the reasons that I have a lot of friendships and that they all feel pretty good is that I will ask people stuff and they feel comfortable sharing it with me and vice versa.

Divia (01:28:35.949)

Yeah, like somebody just tweeted something that was like, when I die, like, I'm gonna try to tell them to put the cause of death in my obituary. She's like, but because don't people want to know? Like, why doesn't it just say? Right?

JC (01:28:44.48)

Yes, I have to say that's one of my social taboos that I'm like that has to go. The whole died suddenly s**t. It's like go f**k yourself. Of what? What the f**k did this person die of? Because it matters and I wanna know and if you don't tell me I'm gonna wonder about it for the rest of time. And there's no f*****g reason for that. Just say like s**t happens, you know?

Divia (01:28:53.153)

You

Divia (01:29:03.533)

Yeah, I don't really get it either. I can understand like some things are maybe a little sensitive, but usually it's not. Usually it's like, was it a crash or was it cancer or was it like, or did they kill themselves? And that's very sad, but still we should know.

JC (01:29:11.891)

Yeah!

Yeah, and it's like, I'm sorry, it's something that happens every day. It's not a stigma, like a stigmatized thing. Like it shouldn't be. It's like, sometimes people do that. And you know, it's like, I just feel like it's an illness in society to not talk about stuff because it's like, that's how we got to this place of like, everybody's experienced, you know, abuse or this or that or trauma, but nobody talks about it. And then it's like, people continue to be victimized because nobody knows how to protect themselves because nobody talks about what they've been through and how it happened and whatever.

Divia (01:29:18.701)

Yeah.

Divia (01:29:23.105)

Not very much anyway. Yeah.

Divia (01:29:36.664)

Right.

JC (01:29:44.956)

You know, so it's like, feel like the reason why younger generations are like so much more savvy is because they're growing up in a time where they can hear hundreds of people talk about the most taboo s**t anytime they want. You just Google search it, YouTube search it, yeah. And then like somebody will tell you the gory details of what happened to them. And then you learn and you recognize how to keep yourself safe more often, you know?

Divia (01:29:57.195)

Even the internet, yeah.

Divia (01:30:03.193)

Let's show.

Divia (01:30:07.107)

Yeah, it's so wild. Like, I remember this stuff as a kid being like, I want to the answer to that, but I'm scared to ask. And it was like really like basic stuff. Like I remember as a kid, I kind of wanted to know how it worked with like bubble gum. I'm like, but how do people do that? But I felt embarrassed to ask anyone. One of the things I know, but I just, seemed weird that I, and I think the top thing that I was missing was that like, no, you can't just blow a bubble with any gum. You need bubble gum. I thought you could just blow a bubble with any gum.

JC (01:30:13.246)

Mm -hmm.

JC (01:30:21.556)

Hmm. Hmm. Even though there's like nothing taboo about that.

JC (01:30:37.576)

like what would be an example of gum that you can't blow a bubble with just like a tougher gum that's not less elastic? I don't know. think I could imagine that that likes Yeah, I could imagine that that like very natural gum at the checkout line at Whole Foods is not one you can blow bubbles with, you know

Divia (01:30:40.491)

so maybe you can. Maybe I'm still wrong. I don't know. I didn't really chew gum,

Yeah, I think so. Anyway, just like random stuff like that that I'd be like, anyway, and we should probably wrap up pretty soon. like, just like, I sort of just wish I could have googled all that stuff.

JC (01:31:02.492)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah, the kids today have no idea how good they have it.

Divia (01:31:04.153)

But I will say something, I keep meaning to like contact her and go tell her, but like a friend of mine when I was 13 at summer camp really helped me with this because there was something that like the popular kids in our bunk were talking about. And she was just like, she just asked them, she was like, what are you talking about?

And I remember going to her later and be like, you're not supposed to do that. It's like weird. It's like socially, whatever. And she was like, however, I want to know the answer. Therefore I should ask. And I was kind of like, you know, I never really thought of it that way. And you really know, this was, this was summer camp. You. Yeah. It could have been at summer camp. Yeah. No, you did once you went to that Italian summer camp.

JC (01:31:27.881)

Yeah.

She sounds like me. Was it me? And I just don't remember it? Yeah. Right. Well, I don't remember anything, so I could have been there. I'm kidding. I do know that I didn't go to summer camp.

yeah, but that was one month in senior year. So it's like, if I was a child, I certainly was not at summer camp, you know? Yeah. And I always joke, it's like, you know, the one time I went to a summer camp, I came back and 9 -11 happened. So don't go to summer camp.

Divia (01:31:48.407)

Yeah. For sure. Yeah.

Divia (01:31:56.665)

yeah. Yeah, I guess we're just on the anniversary of that. Happy 9 -11? Yeah, something like that. It's so weird.

JC (01:32:01.332)

I know happy 9 -11. Yep, I say every 9 -11 where there isn't a 9 -11 is a happy 9 -11, you know? And the weather's great. Is that where we want to wrap up?

Divia (01:32:09.825)

Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Yeah? Anyway, all right. I think so. I guess I will just say in closing, I don't know, I sometimes fondly think, like I had, you know, I had a couple pretty good friends when I was a kid, but you were, you were definitely one of them. And we, you were like the original person that I would argue with. I think, right?

JC (01:32:28.681)

Mm -hmm.

JC (01:32:34.004)

You were the original person that I felt close to and you're like, you're the original person that I would fight with because you're f*****g annoying. No, I'm kidding. Yeah. Hmm. I mean, I don't remember, but sure.

Divia (01:32:37.369)

I did feel close to you. No, no, no, not like that. No, like about ideas, right? No, we would. No, we, okay, well we did. We would talk about math homework. We were talking about like different things, but like, I, there's a certain type of way I like to talk about ideas that's like somewhat more combative and a lot of people aren't up for it, but that's, at least that's how I thought of it is that you seem like you were basically.

JC (01:32:57.458)

Mm -mm.

JC (01:33:01.458)

Yeah, no, I love talking to you and talking about s**t, you know, and I'm down, I'm down, you know? Mm -hmm, yeah, we had good times. All I remember from the early days, yeah, I only remember from the early days concretely as your purple confetti glasses in kindergarten, which I think you said, no, that was first grade or whatever, but.

Divia (01:33:04.567)

Yeah, like we talk about politics and stuff. I know, it was fun.

Yes, I'm glad you came.

Divia (01:33:16.215)

Yep. Yeah, I didn't have glasses in kindergarten, that's true. Did not have glasses in kindergarten.

JC (01:33:21.32)

Did not? There was never a PG pre -glasses Divya, a PGD.

Divia (01:33:27.117)

But that's the thing, we didn't know each other in kindergarten, so that's why you think that probably.

JC (01:33:31.249)

Yeah, but I think in the womb you had tiny little glasses on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, well, you I'm down for a part two if you ever want to, but I also understand if you need to diversify your guest lineup.

Divia (01:33:33.689)

In some spiritual sense, probably,

Divia (01:33:42.947)

Yeah, no, you can come back on. we should stop for now, but everyone should go check out J .C.' podcast. I'll leave it in the show notes. Anything else?

JC (01:33:51.24)

Yeah, I'm at jccassis .com, JCCASSIS .com and then also at JCCASSIS on social media except for Instagram, which is jc .cassis and risk is at risk -show .com or at risk show on social media.

Divia (01:34:02.702)

You

Divia (01:34:08.089)

like you do this. And if anyone lives within 10 blocks of JC and isn't flaky, maybe be friends.

JC (01:34:09.374)

It's almost like that.

JC (01:34:14.898)

Right, and I'm not gonna tell you where that is, because it's the internet, basically, you know, whatever. If you meet me, you meet me, it was meant to be, and if not, you know, then I guess we'll never meet. All right, thanks for having me, bye.

Divia (01:34:17.589)

Exactly.

Divia (01:34:22.329)

Alright, talk to you soon. Bye.

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