How to avoid stress and burnout in an agency environment, with Louisa Pau

Jenny: Louisa, I'm delighted to have you on the show on the show today, I've been wanting to have a chat with you for ages. And I know what you're going to share is going to be so valuable to people in working agencies. So I'm just going to give you a short introduction. But obviously, we know each other through the healthcare communications industry, you're probably one of the most well known people for having built and sold your own agency Woolley Pau. So I know that you've got a huge amount of experience and having run the agency for 19 years. But you then pivoted to start another business in 2013, which is called Otherboard. And one of the biggest reasons for the listeners that I invited you on the show is because your journey and story is just so powerful. And it's sort of led you to do what you do now. So without revealing too much, I'd love if you could spend a couple of minutes just introducing yourself.

Louisa: Oh, thanks, Jenny. It's lovely to be here. Yes, I mean, you've told my story, really, I founded, built and sold the agency. What people probably don't know is that during that time, I also had four boys, and that it very nearly killed me. And I thought, you know, I learned some, I learnt a lot of lessons the hard way, by just making the mistakes and doing it. And, and now, the reason for setting up Otherboard was that I really felt that I didn't want to do it again, which a lot of people do, they kind of go and do it again, I wanted to help other agency leaders, grow their businesses have it all, and not feel guilty and not nearly killed them. So have it all and have a healthy business and a healthy life. And I felt that I could have more impact by working with lots of agencies rather than just doing it again for myself.

Jenny: So if you take us back to when you were growing your agency, because it probably was one of the most successful agencies, there wasn't anyone in the healthcare industry that didn't know Woolley Pau, the name, you're always winning awards. You were always known as a really creative agency. And so take us back to that time. And when, you know, what would, what's your day typically like,  how was your rhythm, you know, running with four boys which is absolutely incredible.

Louisa: Well, it was really crazy. I remember my third child, I went to a pitch two weeks after I had quite a sort of traumatic birth with him. I mean, I just did crazy things. I didn't have any maternity leave. So looking back, it does all look a bit crazy. I mean, I had loads of support at home. And but, you know, about 10 years into the agency life we were doing quite well. I mean, it was slow. People always remember sort of success, but it was very slow. But about 10 years in, we were doing quite well. We had a nice offices in Covent Garden. The children were really young. But you know, but things were kind of going well, we had started winning awards, and we were growing. And then we had, and I remember, I mean I was it was a stressful time. I remember going to an awards dinner, and I was sitting next to this client and he said to me, oh, tell me Louisa, what are your hobbies? I just laughed in his face. There wasn’t really time for anything else. The business and home like that just took up every part of my life. There was no, there wasn't time for anything else. And then we had really terrible year, which most people probably don't know about. We lost nine pitches in a row. We lost two of our biggest clients. We didn't renew their contracts. My husband had a massive work life crisis and decided that he wanted to give up his big job. And, and Dean, my business partner also had sort of family bereavements and things going on for him. So we were really sort of sorely tested at that time. And we just carried on, I think we kind of sat down and I used to tell this story was, how did I come back from that? And, you know, we sat down and we decided and we made a plan. And then three years later, we sold the business. But what I didn't used to tell people was that what the cost of that was, so the stress involved in that. But at the time I didn't really do self reflection. I just did my mantra ,because everyone has a mantra now my mantra was pull your socks up. We nearly wrote a book about it, a sort of self help book called Pull Your Socks Up. But I now sort of laugh about it. It's awful, really. But I had this sense that I could manage on my own, because that's what I've always done. I've set up on my own, you know, obviously with a partner, and with support, but I think my parents say that my first phrase was ‘self do it’. And that's how I was, I just thought I could do everything. And we did sell the business, and it was all very successful. And then a year after we sold the business, I got very ill and nearly died. And I had ignored the warning signs. And and I believe that that illness, the cause of that was probably years and years of ignored stress that finally caught up with me. And, I can't remember what we were saying now!

Jenny: No. And this is fascinating, actually, the timing of when it happened. So you sold it,  all of this stress was going on? You had this huge amount of pressure on you, additional pressure, when you lost all the clients, you lost the last two clients lost the pitch, Dean's family problems. And then, but But you made it through that, then you sold, then a year later, it actually affected your health. So looking back, the accumulation is massively powerful.

Louisa: And I think that's what people do, they ignore the, there were warning signs. So which I ignored up, I kind of ignored for instance, during that three years, I was suffering quite badly from heart palpitations. And I did go and see a cardiologist, I had tests. And he came, the test came back and he said, Well, you know, everything's fine. You're just suffering from stress, you know, there's nothing else. So if I meant thinking, Okay, it's just stress. Now that I know what a bit about the science of stress and what that means I'm kind of amazed that that was just sort of brushed off because stress is, is incredibly unhealthy and can lead to serious illness if you don't deal with it. And you know, I had other, you know, other warning signs, like feeling, you know, those sort of feelings of guilt that I wasn't doing enough for the business or enough my family, you know, that's a very common sort of warning sign. And the trouble is that, that feeling of stress starts to become normal. And that's what happened to me, I think that was just my normal. And so it was only when it just came to a point where I literally nearly died, that I just had to go what, and physically I couldn't go back to the business, I was really quite poorly for a long time afterwards. And then it took, you know, the trauma of having to have a massive operation, the trauma of all that took actually years to process. And, and for me to get healthy again. And, you know, I just really don't want that to happen to other people. 

Jenny: Absolutely. And that is, and that's one of the reasons I wanted to invite you on, because I think this is, you know, like, what you've described is probably other agency leaders are listening to this and thinking Well, okay, maybe I'm ignoring the signs, or maybe that kind of little heart flutter that keeps happening, you know, you don't know how it's gonna manifest to you, as you say. So talk us through what your actual sort of routine looked like, because maybe other people can identify, was it because you were working weekends? Or evenings? Or was it the relentlessness of everything? Or you said you had help? But wha, what did your sort of day to day existence look like?

Louisa: I suppose when the children were very young, getting up really early, so lack of sleep, getting up really early. Um, I mean, it's all a blur, really, for when they were really young, I can almost hardly remember feeling really tired all the time, getting up really early. So I would normally go into the office early, and then we had a nanny that would come in until my husband gave up his job. And then he looked after the children, as he had a basically a breakdown. Um, so we were both quite stressed for a long time. And then it you know, looking back, I just think I wasn't putting my energy, it's all about energy, what you put your energies into, and I think at work, like many agency owners, I felt I had to do it all as well as have it all. And so I probably just got got involved in too much in everything, and it towards the end, yes, I did let go of stuff, delegate stuff, have a good management team. But even so I think I was probably a bit too much the hero, you know, sort of stepping in when there was problems to be solved. Or if not meddling with, with things. It's a common theme I see in all with all the clients I work with, and really not, I suppose I didn't really, my role was a bit of everything. And so I just got involved in everything, everything to do the agency, you know, going to, you know, dealing with clients, dealing with the finances of the agency. I mean, my business partner used to always say, I was the conscience of the agency, I was really good at looking at creative work and deciding if it was good enough for us to present. So I did get involved at that stage, you know, at that level with creative work. Yeah, it's a lot of travelling around , which is funny now, because you spend so much time to go into meetings, spending time at clients. And it's actually quite a funny question, because I almost can't remember what, I think it really was just this blur of, and then coming home, you know, bathing the children trying to spend some time with them and the weekends with just fully the family. Unless we were doing a pitch or something, then you'd go in. I mean, I used to think that we had this healthy agency, because we didn't encourage late working, you know, staying up all night, every week. Yes, we did do it every now and then for a pitch, but we encouraged everyone to go home, because I did. But it was still stressful. Does that answer your question? And I almost can't really remember the details. 

Jenny: Sounds to me like you were on autopilot. And you were just doing, doing, doing? And how did it? How did it affect everybody else? Like were you noticing any reactions from other people? Or did anyone at any point take you to one side and say, Louisa, you know, I feel like you're doing too much? Was there no one around you at the time? Did no one dare to come near you?  

Louisa: I think people used to find me quite scary, which I always find really odd, but I think they did. Oh, no that never happened. I think I mean, I did speak to my business partner, Dean. Yeah, I mean, I did want some time out of the business. But it was just so hard to sort of accept that. I did get a mentor. It was around that time before we sold the business. And he was really helpful. And that was the only time I really got some support. Apart from joining, I was a member of the IPA and the Institute of Practitioners for advertising. I was on Council and I also ran the health care group for a while. And that was a brilliant support network, because they were my peers and people that you know, and I'm still friends with some of them now. And that's been a really, you know, when you, I would advocate that to anybody to find peers that you can talk to, because they're the only people that really understand what you're going through.

Jenny: Did you ever share? I mean, because to certain extent, I mean, it's always a double edged sword, isn't it? The reason you were so making sure that everything was done just so, you didn't drop any balls, and you were making sure that the company was operating at its highest level, and you got the success as a result, but actually, what was happening behind the scenes was personally, it was having a detrimental effect, albeit very slowly, chipping away at your health. And I'm just curious, like you were surrounded I mean, as if you hadn't didn't have enough to do you also get involved with the IPA and all that. So with your peers? Was this topic ever brought up? Or was it not discussed? The fact that hey, you know, like, um, you know, was it a bit like a badge of honour saying no, we're doing it all? Were you able to talk about it? Or was it a lack of consciousness on your part that you didn't actually know enough about how it was affecting you to be able to share how you were feeling?

Louisa: I think I kept it very much, I did share with my husband and, and my business partner, um, that I was stressed that I felt guilty that you know, those kind of feelings. I don't think I did really share it with anybody else. I mean, we shared issues we had, you know, around, say pitching or something or issues or, you know, something to do with contracts or procurement, but they were more sort of functional things we didn't really share about how we were feeling in that way. I think I didn't I think, I put on my brave face. I smiled a lot, because that's what I did. I looked after everybody. That's, that's what I did. I pretended I pretended for years and years, everything was fine. And, you know, the way you introduced me, I obviously did a really good job, did a fantastic job.

Jenny: This is the thing, it's like everything is in line in life is a balance, isn't it? You know, it has to somehow calibrate. So when, if we go back to that time, because what I'm what I'm really keen to do is to and as what you're doing now, I want to dig into how you're helping agencies now, because I think this is such a brilliant topic to talk about. I think so many people do suffer from stress, pressure guilt, when they're growing an agency, building an agency or working in an agency, actually, because it's very 100 miles an hour, everything, isn't it. And I just think it's a topic personally that I don't think talked about enough. So I'm keen to kind of try to pull out from you, what you believe people can do to recognise that they might be going down a path that they don't want to be doing. And quick, more quickly do something about it. You said that a mentor came into life and help support you, you could talk to your husband about things. But what I mean, you're obviously working now with agency owners leaders, what signs do you see from the outside looking in that they might be like you just getting on with it. But really, they need to be, there's a bit of a warning bell that you can see.

Louisa: Sometimes I wonder, maybe, maybe that this doesn't exist, maybe I've just made it all up, I have those moments. And then for instance, the other day, I'm in an agency group that I'm in, there's a little chat, and 18 agency owners, but in this chat talking about feeling overwhelmed, feeling stressed. And these are the warning signs that you can't relax, that your sleep is interrupted. Or maybe you have that like 4am feeling where you wake up worrying about everything, or just little niggles like, you know, for anybody watching, things like headaches or you know, that you don't normally have itchy skin. Or just that feeling, you know, in your stomach, you know, that kind of like constant pressure in your stomach, which, which you might have, or even it could be more about, like starting to doubt yourself or that you know that you might make mistakes. And also, you know, actually making poor decisions, because when we're in that stress state, so there's a difference between healthy stress and unhealthy stress. This is important to realise. So, you know, I've noticed it in the last six months during the whole COVID time, there was a kind of sense that the first few months of it, that's just huge stress. But in a way, for some people, it was sort of healthy stress, because it's like, right, something's happening. It's almost sort of exciting, we've got to change things, we've got to do things differently. And that's what happens. Healthy stress is fine, it improves performance. And we've all felt that, you know, you start a new project or a new job or a new relationship. It's exciting. And that, but there's a tipping point which is where it turns into unhealthy stress. And that's the thing that we're not very good at noticing. Because we start to just think that this level of stress is normal. And it's realising when we start feeling those warning signs that it's tipping into unhealthy stress. And that that's the time to sort of do something about it. Because healthy stress makes is great for good decision making. But unhealthy stress is the opposite. So agencies should really worry about it because it's also really bad for creativity. Because creativity needs calm. It doesn't need stressed in the unhealthy sense of stress. So the other thing that is a little warning sign is that whole ‘I am fine. I'm fine.’ Yeah, yeah, smiley everyone's smiling because nobody's fine all the time. So that's that sort of understanding there are diminishing returns to that stress is very important for all and you're right, especially in agencies because it's already a stressful environment. You win pitches exciting, you lose pitches that's all for you, you know, have a new client you've got to get going. That's lots of new stuff to do. This is always up and down stressful. It is that kind of environment. So we need to really watch out for it more than many other people.

Jenny: What's the first thing that you would suggest someone did, if they listen to listening to this, and they perhaps are thinking, I think that I'm starting to go down the route of the more unhealthy stress, rather than the healthy stress, what's the very first thing that they should do really?

Louisa: Brilliant, they've already done the first thing, which is to notice it. So being self aware, is the first step to kind of having a plan. Because if you're, if you don't notice it, then you're just going to fall into it. And what happens is people go until they fall over. So people might get ill or, or literally can't go to work, you know, suffer burnout. So noticing it, being self aware is the first good step, then talk to somebody, most agencies do have some sort of, they're usually covered under their insurance, they do normally have somebody you can talk to like a kind of counselling services, you can just at least you can talk to somebody. But I would just suggest talking to, you know, a good friend, or, you know, just just to be able to voice those feelings is really important. And talk to somebody that makes you feel good. And talk to somebody that's going to say, Oh, I know somebody that's got stress, but you don't want to talk to the conversation. Yeah, know exactly. You want to talk to somebody who's going to go, I hear you. Yeah. So talking is, is really important. There's loads, there's loads you can do you can do for yourself, I would as a small step, we could do it actually, we could do it now, if you want is, it's up to you, a way of holding a stress, stress response as a physiological response. And one way to hold it is just a simple breathing. And if you start learning how to do that, that's a great way to get yourself into a more calm, alert state. So even if you just take a couple of deep breaths, but if you have a minute, would you like to do it now?

Jenny: I'd love to do it. I’m going to get away from the microphone, I don't want to impose my breathing on anyone. 

Louisa: So it's just a really simple breathing technique called heart focus breathing. Just take a deep breath to start. And then just focus your attention in your heart or chest area. And then just start to breathe through your nose in a nice, balanced way. So for instance, in for a count of four, or five, and out for the same. And make sure you don't hold your breath on the ingress or the outlet.

Jenny: Your voice is making me feel very relaxed as well, to be honest, I honestly, I physically feel better, just breathing twice there. And your voice is calming me down.

Louisa: This is a great little technique that you can use with your eyes open anywhere. So if you're having a conversation with a client was like a stressful conversation or a colleague, or you're about to go into a meeting, if you do this just for a minute. It's so simple. The key is just to take your attention to your heart, it interrupts your automatic kind of breathing patterns. So attention to heart balanced in and out. And that's all you have to do. And that's just a simple little technique to take away. And yeah, it's funny, I was finally getting you were saying about talking about being, you know, about how you were then and I sort of think I would never have done that. I've never have known to do that.

Jenny: Well, you take breathing for granted, don't you? We don't even think about using your breath as a technique.

Louisa: And it's great because we do have an autonomic nervous system that makes us breathe without thinking.  But the brilliant thing is you can interrupt it. And what that does, it gives you a little bit, gives you a little sort of top up, I sort of like to talk about your inner battery in terms of resilience. And what happened to me is my battery just ran out. I had no more reserves, I had nothing. And a little breathing like that just tops up your battery, just a small amount and there's loads of other things you can do. But that's just a quick one, and it halts the stress reaction. Because every time you'll stress like that you're building up cortisol in your body. It's just so bad for you. 

Jenny: So is it cumulative? I mean, I don't know a lot about cortisol. So you add more and more and more? I mean, it's, well, I mean, my, my father died of cancer, and I'm sure a lot of the manifestation in his body that started it, he was he was very, very stressed. But I so that's one technique that people can use, which is really super helpful. Thank you so much for sharing. Tell me about the other ways that you help people when they come to you like, what's your advice for people? Because Do you find that the more you talk about this topic, the more people start sort of secretly contacting you and saying, hey, Louisa, I heard you talk about this. 

Louisa: Well, what tends to happen is people go, I know,  I agree I am, I'm really stressed, I really need this, but I've got no time. And because they are so overwhelmed, it's very hard for them to see how they could find the time. So the first thing is to help find some time, you know, help help even just, you know, one of the little workshops I run for whole agencies is how to have a good day. And that just is just like little productivity tips, you know, because until you find, you know, a bit about a bit of time to have for yourself. And I think a lot of agency owners are actually really good at looking after their staff, but they often don't spend any time on themselves. So until they're ready to actually say, I'm worth spending some time on because if I don't, I can't look after all these other people, then actually, there's usually a bit of a time lag, which is awful, because I don't want to get, I don't want them to get to the point where they're burnt out when they get to me, because then they probably need to go to the doctor, not to a coach. So I really want to help people before they get to that point. So the key is programmes, I think quite a lot of people do sort of resilience workshops, and that kind of thing. But I stopped doing them because I realised that one session is really not, you've got to do a programme, because this stuff tends to be ingrained. You're not going to change it, you know, in one, one session, this is going to take this is going to take some time and some commitment to help people.

Jenny: And typically, what do people say about working with you during a programme? You know, how has it, how does it tend to impact them? Like what what did they, how did they describe their journey and their experience of you being able to help them with that transformation?

Louisa: So they normally talk about feeling calm, which again, always makes me laugh, because I've always been known for being this kind of loud, extrovert person. I love the fact I'm making people feel calm. And they always talk about clarity. Like, suddenly they can see what they need to do. They, they have a plan. They have the next step they feel, they just feel, they often say they feel better. And for different people, it means different things. But usually, they see the next step that they're going to take and it feels doable and exciting. And they feel energised.

Jenny: Is that  what you help people do is develop their own bespoke plan for them and where they're always, tailored to what they need?

Louisa: Yeah, I mean, the techniques, and if I'm doing the resilience programme itself, there are there's a workbook and we work through it, but it's all based on them and what they need, and everyone's at different points in that journey. You know, some people I work with are really, really stressed and overwhelmed, and other people less so but they can see it could come if they don't do something about it. And we're also working on growing the business or, you know, helping them grow the business as well as the cost themselves. And that's the mix.

Jenny: Well, I was gonna say, I mean, not only can you help them with their health, you can help them with the practical side of running a business, can't you? And presumably, I mean, that's the beauty of working with someone like yourself, who has trodden the path of growing and selling successfully an agency, you know, it's like, well, there's nothing probably that you come up against now that you haven't, you know, with someone else that you haven't experienced yourself.

Louisa: I think that does mean that I have huge amounts of empathy for them. It might sound a bit odd but I really love my clients. Because, you know, when I'm in the moment with them, I you know, I really want to help them and, and I think they, you know, they clearly feel that support and I prefer now to take more of a coaching approach, which is really believing they have, they're the experts in their life, and they will find the answers that work for them. So yes, I may, you know, help, I may with my questions, and, you know what, what to ask them that might help them. And if I'm doing blended sort of mentoring and coaching, I may suggest some things if that's helpful to them, but usually, it's going to work much better if they find the ways that work for them. 

Jenny: You said before about, you know, the agency owner is very good at looking after their team and recognising stress in them. But then, you know, it's it, they're not looking after themselves. I think what I've realised working with a lot of agency account managers, is how the agency owner shows up within the business can have a real effect on everybody. I mean, their energy levels, their approaches. And I remember, when I was, I was running Publicis between different MDs, I was picking up the reins. I remember, I was I was what you just described, I was really resonating with what as you were describing it, I was, I was working weekends I was full on. And I was really excited. I thought actually, it was this anxious anxiety, I think all the time. And it wasn't until an old MD came to visit me for coffee. And she actually really helped me because she leaned forward said, Jenny, are you okay? And I went, it came as a shock, the question, but she'd noticed the change in my energy, my demeanour. And obviously, I was carrying myself and, you know, imposing that way of being to my team, so God knows what detrimental effect it had on everybody else. But do you think that's equally as important that, you know, ultimately, you're, you're looking after yourself so that you can help your team perform better?

Louisa: Absolutely and as I say, I do find that most agency owners do really care about their team. And somebody I was talking to you the other day used the metaphor of the oxygen mask, they were saying, you know, if you don't put the oxygen mask on yourself first, how can you help everybody else? And, and I think that yeah, I mean, the impact on your staff is massive, because it could just be that you're micromanaging. That could be the impact of it, because you're so worried about everything, but you're constantly checking, checking, checking. Instead of going, I've trained them, I've empowered them. Jenny's done a fantastic account management programme with them. And you know, that I can let that go. And they might not think of that as a kindness, but it's actually so important for them to concentrate on the things that only they can do. And that's the biggest piece of advice I would always give anybody running a business is to really think about. And at home as well, you know what? So for me looking back, like what, what was it that only I could do with the children that only their mum will do? Because there are some things they don't, they didn't need me to pack their lunch, but they did need me to go to their assemblies, which I did go to most often. For instance, you know, so deciding what only you can do in the business, what what could you know, where you bring value to the business, and what you can let go of, or outsource or get somebody else to do is so important. And that's a really key step to, you know, having a healthy life and a healthy business.

Jenny: Yeah, that must be quite cathartic for someone to sort of sit down with you and just pour it all out and analyse different areas of their life with someone else that can really have a practical and pragmatic approach to what can you leverage? What do you need to absolutely do? And what don't you need to do because that must in itself actually feel like a relief? And just you've mentioned your family a few times. And I hope you don't mind me asking the question, but do you think that your family in any way suffered as a result of what you were experiencing?

Louisa: Yeah, I do. I do. I feel a bit emotional when you ask that, I mean, some of not all of it was bad. So I have four boys who are and I think partly, they were already lovely, obviously. But I think having seen me really, really ill meant they've always just been incredibly loving and sweet and my youngest son, I think it's the reason he's decided to go into medicine. Because he was only nine at the time, and it really it really affected him. And it was really sad at the time. But yeah, and I think it was a good thing for my marriage because I think we kind of fell in love again. In the hospital. Because it you know, sometimes those things are give you that real sense of what you could have lost, you know, and that perspective. So I don't, it's not all bad. You know, there was some amazing things that came out of it, including, you know, that I love what I'm doing now. And, yes, a lot of love. And I think I also have, I think one thing I gained was empathy, a lot more empathy for, for everyone. And, and I feel very blessed to have that, because it's, it helps me every day.

Jenny: It's so powerful. I mean, it's so powerful to think that your son chose a career path as a result of what he was experiencing, that it had such a positive impact on your relationship. And I suppose in those times you do understand who your true friends are, and who your true supporters and the people that really care and love, love you. I'm sure. I mean, just out of interest, did you find that people from the industry were rallying round? Or did you want? Did you? Did people come out the woodwork that you didn't think had that sort of empathy, as you refer to at the time? Or were you surprised at the lack of care in general?

Louisa: I don't think it was particularly one or the other. I think a lot of people just didn't really, I don't think it really registered with people. I think some people knew I'd been very ill. But you know, people were just busy and getting on with their lives. So I think apart from my sort of close, friends and, and sort of close business, friends, I don't think people really knew. I mean, people are funny, I remember smart people often, but I remember being in hospital and realising how, how little people understand about people who are sick, really, really sick. And, you know, sending you like huge boxes of chocolates that, you know, like work people thinking, what, you know, I'm really ill, I can't eat anything. It's sort of, they've got their PA to send a big box of chocolates. I think there is a sort of, I don't know, I think people don't really I don't think people really sort of understood. And I think if you're in a sort of leadership role, people just want us to be better. You know, I don't really want to know that you're, yeah, that human.

Jenny: Exactly. That's, that's really interesting. That's really interesting. So the gesture was there, but the execution fell down. I'm interested to, to know if what else you would advise you've shared some really valuable tips, I think, you know, first of all, having a recognition of what you're going through and talking to someone about, and you've shared, the fact that, you know, breathing techniques really helped to initially calm you down, to think about your life in terms of areas that perhaps you could leverage, you know, and somebody else's services or tools even to, to help yourself. And I'm interested sort of to expand on that too, to understand the different ways that you work with people, I know that you prefer to work as a programme, and you don't do sort of one off resilience workshops or anything, but yeah, what do you do, you do that as a group? Or is it always one on one?

Louisa: Both I like, I really like both. And I've found doing group coaching on zoom or group mentoring works really well. I love it. I never thought I'd say that because I really like being with people. And there's something about it that seems to work when people are in their own homes. So I do both. I love doing both. I work with small groups, unless it's a workshop like I'll do a How to Have a good day workshop. I can do that with 20 people. But with the mentoring and coaching programmes, the groups are normally around seven seems to be an ideal number and the one to ones and so I tend to work with the business owners and then also do groups with their teams or sometimes one to one with their teams, depending on what the need is?

Jenny: And have you got any examples of perhaps agencies that are excelling in this area that are kind of super aware? And they have any kind of initiatives that they do? Like, what have you seen best practice with agencies?

Louisa: Yes, I've been thinking about this, um, I think some, some, maybe bigger companies are tracking they’re maybe doing online surveys tracking, you know, the happiness of their staff. Some are doing training programmes. But this says, I don't know if there is a lot of really great best practice. I think, as I mentioned earlier, some will have sort of mental health signposting around, you know, so people will know, maybe to ask things in a certain way, and if and then we'll know who to sort of post them to signpost, them to, they might have a counsellor that you can talk to. And I think the thing with resilience is that people think it's all about sort of bouncing back after something terrible's happened. And so the programmes tend to be for that. So there's a lot of good stuff for people who have fallen over and say, is some way you can go and to help you up. But the way I just define resilience is that it's the capacity to prepare for, to recover from and to adapt in the face of stress or challenge. And so it's that building up your inner battery that that building capacity, and I think there isn't a lot of great work going on with that. I think there's good stuff. But what happens when I'm ill, but not so much, how do we create this capacity, which means that you are healthier individual at work? Even that's creative, you know, building up your inner battery, because I think everyone that resonates with everyone, isn't it? They can just imagine, yes, that makes total sense.

And we do it, you know, for our cars, you know, we have MOT's we have regular service checks, we put oil in we check it, we look at the light switches, come on, but we don't do it for ourselves. And I don't, I don't think companies have really, you know, I think agency owners have been really good at the last few months that keeping the energy going the team, you know, I've worked really hard on team culture. And I think they do care about how much people are working, especially at home, where they're working possibly even longer hours back to back meetings on zoom, and I care about it. But I'm not sure there's I haven't seen any signs of brilliant best practice in terms of ongoing programmes.

Jenny: Would you say that, just a couple more questions before I'm just conscious of your time, would you say that COVID the whole situation with everyone working remotely and on their own? Have you seen a higher prevalence in, you know, people who are, it is affecting their health because not everybody loves? You know, if you're maybe over 50, you know, you love being at home and working from home because you're very self sufficient. But generally speaking, our industry does attract a lot of young talent, doesn't it? And if you're starting in an agency, part of it, part of the enjoyment of an agency is the bars and pitching and stuff like that. So would you say that you'd seen any trends or changes recently?

Louisa: I mean, I think it's been such a mix, some people and it's not just a age related, you know, I know some younger people also love it depends where they live, you know, what their home life is, what their commute used to be. And some people have loved it and are healthier, doing my exercise eating better, because they've got more time. Other people have gone completely opposite seems to be two camps, they put on weight, they've drunk too much and not as much exersie. I think the common theme is there's definitely more anxiety around. Some people have stress as well. But there's definitely kind of over here there's this like level of anxiety, which we've all got. Now, I've been working really hard on building up my inner battery these last few weeks, especially because I can see that it's being depleted by this kind of background anxiety that that is there all the time for us to see. So, so I think it's a real mix. I think that is more anxiety, more stress for everybody.

Jenny: I think what I from what I've seen, I agree with you as well. Louisa, I think this is so powerful, I'd love you to share where, because I'm sure there are people listening to this thinking, oh my god, she's like, taking the words out of my mouth. That's exactly how I feel. And I recognise that I do need to do something about it. So I find it hugely inspiring that you're doing what you're doing because of your background because of who you're helping. And having trodden the path before. I think that does make you so much, so much more valuable, because you get it as you say, your empathy is increased. So how can people reach you who, who are the best people that you would like to be contacted by? And how can people contact you if they want to know more?

Louisa: So they can find me on LinkedIn, or email me, louisa@otherboards.co.uk. I mean, I'm happy to chat to anybody. My usual starting point is usually business, the agency owner or person running the agency, or somebody in the senior management team. They're usually the people that employees employ me as it were. And so they would be the best people.

Jenny: Amazing. And any finally, anything that I haven't asked you that is pertinent about your story that you would like to share? Because I just want to capture everything. Anything that I haven't asked you that I probably should have done?

Louisa: I don't think so. We've been really kind of.. No, I’d better now share any more – my poor family!   

Jenny: I honestly, I really want to raise the awareness of this because I, having worked in the industry myself, I I totally believe that what you're saying is so valuable. And I just think it's phenomenal what you're doing. So it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for agreeing to do this. And, yeah, just carry on doing what you're doing. I think it's hugely valuable in the industry. So thank you.

Louisa: Thank you.