Episode #72 – Jim Clair on Exploding Your Current Business’ Profits Through the Power of the Upsell

John:Hey, it’s John McIntyre here, The Autoresponder Guy, and it’s time for Episode 72, seventy two of the McMethod email marketing podcast, where you get nitty-gritty techniques, tips and strategies to make more money with email marketing and sales funnels in your business. Today I’ll be talking to Jim Clair about how to write copy. Very simple. 

Now Jim, the reason he is an interesting, very interesting guy is he wrote the copy for Tao of Badass, where he was like main copyrighter, the head copyrighter for the Tao of Badass, I’ve been saying like the Dow, which used to be the biggest product on ClickBank in terms of sales. They were doing a huge volume of sales and they are heading, they are still very big, and Jim was their copywriter. 

He has had some experience with very big products, and I thought I’d grab him on, I’ll grab him and bring him on to the show and pick his brain on how to be a good copywriter, and I think upsells. All right, that’s what we are going to talk about today, how they are using upsells with the Tao of Badass to how they’ve used them to really crank up the revenue per customer. This is going to be an interesting episode, I mentioned upsells last week as the, maybe two weeks ago was from the McMasters Inside of the Week, and we are going to talk more about that today. 

If you listen to today’s episode and you don’t go and create an upsell for your business, then something is off, you got to get started. If you don’t have upsells you need to go and get some. Now to get the show notes, for this episode of the email marketing podcast, go to themcmethod.com/72. Now I’ve got the McMasters Inside of the Week now. 

What I’ve got written down here in front of me, my little text that says, testing, testing, testing. Now the reason I say this is I’m learning a lot right now because I’ve got a campaign running with some Facebook traffic. What’s blown me away is how much testing is involved in just making something, to make money. You need to test stuff, you need to test if autoplay on the video sales letter works, you need to test your prices, you need to test which headlines work, right. 

It’s all well and good for me to sit down here and say, you should do this and you should do that, and you are going to listen to all those Internet marketing viewers out there who tell you what you should do with your business, but at the end of the day you need to adopt what you might call the testing mindset, which is a thing where you take your emotions out of your business, take your emotions out of your sales funnel, stop, I guess riding the emotional rollercoaster, which is easier said than done, but you got to do it and adopt that idea, that feeling that you are a scientist. 

You are an Albert Einstein and when you approach your business, when you approach your sales funnel and how to get more customers and all that, you’re looking at a formula, you have a hypothesis, maybe this will get me customers, you go and test it. If it doesn’t work, this is the thing, a lot of the time it won’t work, right, and then, you haven’t failed, you haven’t messed up. What you have to do now is think, okay, so we tried that, it didn’t work, what else could we try? The same way Albert Einstein might mess around in his apartment or in house, wherever he’d tinker around with his experiments to figure out what works. 

Now a great book to put you into the right headspace for this is Scientific Advertising, it’s a great read, it’s must-read really for anyone doing marketing or copywriting because it just, you have to understand that there is not an ultimate formula, no one can give you a product that’s gives you a magic bullet or just the whole system that’s just going to work when you plug it into your business. It doesn’t work like that, you are going to have to test. 

Now I’ve been talking about this in McMasters on some of the training webinars, the forum that testing is extremely important that you have to have this scientific mindset. Now McMasters is a private training community, where you can learn more about email marketing, the McIntyre method which is a four-week training program on how to write auto-responders. There is a forum where you get access to me, there is a monthly webinars, we go through training, I’m doing my business, how things are changing and how you can grow your business too. That’s McMasters, more about that at themcmethod.com/mcmasters. 

Now we’ve got review here, this one is from Jesse Moscoe, this is a long review. I like long reviews. “Five stars, terrific podcast, super information. John has been sending me emails every day for a long time.” I send emails every single day. “He is a razor-sharp marketer, practices what he preaches and does a terrific job interviewing. I’m always disgusted when I hear a podcast, I was [inaudible00:03:58] on and on about themselves stuttering and repeating what their guests has just said with no question in sight. John will do none of this, he is a smart guy, obviously he lives in beautiful Thailand, and you’ll do well to get into his sphere of influence. I’m a relatively new copywriter but have gained immensely since I started following The Autoresponder Guy. Great job, John.” 

Jesse, thank you for the review, I love reviews and I especially appreciate the time you took to write a lengthy review. I appreciate it. Now if you want to leave a review for this show, you can go to iTunes, it’s a little bit clunky, that interface, search for McMethod or the email marketing podcast, hit me out with a review and I will read it out on the show, and you’ll get famous. Now that’s it from me for now, we are going to get into this interview to talk about Jim Clair about upsells and how you can make more, way more money from your sales funnel. 

It’s John McIntyre here, The Autoresponder Guy, I’m here with Jim Clair. Now I found Jim on Facebook, I was clicking around through random Facebook groups of copywriters and marketers, and Jim pops up and I notice that he was one of the copywriters, the copywriter for Tao of Badass, which is what used to be the biggest product on ClickBank. 

It’s one of the biggest dating products that teaches man obviously how to pick up girls, and it has done some really, they are like a kill of VSL, which Jim might mention in a minute that they did. They just done a ton of interesting stuff and I thought, I keep hearing, friends keep mentioning that Tao of Badass is just having a [inaudible00:05:21] funnel and [inaudible00:05:21] copy, so I thought why don’t get Jim on the podcast to talk about what they are up to and what they’ve learnt especially in relation to upsells. We’ll talk about that in a minute. Jim, how are you doing? 

Jim:Good. Thanks for having me on here, John, I’m glad to be here. 

John:Good to have you on the show, man. One thing I just want to mention because I hit record was that you and me, it’s like, like I said the copyright, I don’t know how many years into it, I’ve been doing this for two years maybe, two and a half years. It’s fun to talk to someone who has been on a similar journey, who is, it’s just like you get some of the income like, both writing copy, both writing it up by hand, both reading the books, and it’s just different. I usually speak to people who are just way, way, way, they are just gurus like John Carlton or Perry Marshall, who [inaudible00:06:03] Zofia. 

Jim:No, it’s been quite a journey, for sure. I started out with Tao, I had a long background in car sales, and its pretty much in upsell, so that my favorite thing to doing the car [inaudible00:06:19] was, it’s called the F&I or Finance and insurance, that’s really where you are upselling them. Someone just bought what they think to be a $30,000 car and then here we have to stare them in the face and somehow just squeeze a ton of more money out of them, especially with new cars, since regardless of what people think most new cars don’t have a lot of markup, it’s on the F&I guy to upsell them. 

John:Interesting. We’ll get into the upsells in a second, but I gave people a quick little intro, you want to give people a bit more about who is Jim Clair and I guess, a quick look, what have you done and what are you doing right now? 

Jim:My, probably the most famous thing is, I’m the copyrighter for the Tao of Badass, which I’ve been doing now for, I want to say close to three years. I came on there right during the meteoric rise, which came from the Goldfish VSL, which is a pretty famous VSL. 

John:What is this VSL? I think a lot of people liking to know what that is. 

Jim:Basically the Goldfish VSL is, it has a hook of, hi, my name is … its Josh [inaudible00:07:31] reading. Hi, my name is Josh and this a fish, and this fish is going to show you how, or I’m going to show how this fish can get you laid is the main hook. Actually it’s John Benson, it’s his formula, Josh basically mentored under Benson, and then Benson helped him write that VSL, and then it hit and then it just, Tao went from three guys struggling in a coffee shop to all of a sudden this huge meteoric rise and we’ve been rocking ever since and it’s like being in a rock band. 

Now Tao has become my client, I do write in the golf niche, I’m just starting there and it looks like they might have something coming up in the self-defense niche a little bit down the line here. Then my website, although it’s not up and running yet, I have it, there should be a blog post soon as kickasscopy.com. 

John:Nice, man. You’ve been doing, I noticed, the interesting thing, you mentioned, I think it was on your Facebook page about writing out sales articles, sales letters by hand. 

Jim:Yes. 

John:I did that for so long, I did that for a couple of months, at least in the Philippines and it was tracking with the spreadsheet to count how many I’d done. That was how I got started too, so I thought it was so cool that you’ve done as well. 

Jim:I still try and do it almost close to every day as I can. I get up at around 6:00 in the morning every day to go to the gym, but as soon as they get up, once I take a piss and then feed the cat and then usually, for hopefully about 15 minutes to half hour depending on how sluggish I am feeling I’ll hand copy sales letter, I’ll keep working on the sales letter. 

John:Let’s talk about it, let’s get into the upsell thing, and the reason I wanted to bring this, the whole upsell thing up, upsell is because I mentioned to you, I’d running a paid traffic funnel or a funnel on Facebook right now, and I wasn’t originally going to … when I originally set it up, it didn’t have any upsells. Then I spoke to a guy here in Chiang Mai, Thailand, who has been doing this for 10, 15 years, and he just says, “Dude, you got to have some upsells.” 

I say, all right, you’ve been doing this for long, I’ll go and setup some upsells, I came up with some upsells, made a few videos, basic thing, super-basic, my setup was like, I was not using one click upsells, which is, I was sending people to PayPal for the first product, they were coming back, and then they had to go. Even if they took the upsell number one, they had to go back to PayPal and keep doing that, to keep on doing the upsell, so super [ghetto00:10:03] and then forcing people to sign-up [inaudible00:10:05] even before every single time they brought another product. 

I made them jump through so many hoops and created so much friction, but when all was said and done, the upsells made up more than two-thirds of the revenue in that sales funnel. Without the upsells the whole thing would have been a complete failure. That was like, I was [inaudible00:10:21] it was like, holy shit, like these upsells, this is where its at, like the money in the business is the upsells.

Jim:Oh, for sure. I think that was part of the reason why Tao was looking for copywriter because they weren’t monetizing the Goldfish. Josh put these upsells together in a hurry but they didn’t, in all honesty they are crap, it didn’t really perform. That was task, it was my first duty that came about. Josh asked about the car businesses so I’ve used the Hammer people. It’s where the money is and a lot of things and then McDonald’s does it, has been doing it to us for years. Would you like fries with that? 

John:An upsell, just in case our listener doesn’t know, an upsell is when you go to buy something, it could be anything, like a McDonald’s burger or whatever, and then immediately after you buy that, you are asked if you want to buy another thing. At McDonald’s its like, you buy, they are like, do you want fries with that, do you want a drink with that? With a product like, I don’t know what the upsell is for, Tao of Badass, but if you buy the main product, then afterwards they’d sell you like an eBook on the 10 best pickup lines for another 50 bucks. 

Jim:The thing that I find with upsells, that’s where I started cutting my teeth, started trying to beat my own, a lot of that depends on the angle you take on it, to really make them successful. 

John:What do you mean by the angle? 

Jim:The problem is, not the problem is, a lot of people when they, they spend so much time in the VSL or they are, the long-form sales letter in that main funnel, in their main offer, their main product, that if they write something really good, it makes them sound like the Grand Poobah, they and to all be, all this is the shit, like you are going to do whatever. There is no. 

John:This is the last thing you need, to be able to end up. 

Jim:Exactly. Then all of a sudden you get to a page and it says, wait, you need this. [inaudible00:12:14] can be done in the right way. The angle, I think there is probably a couple of angles, but the angle I really like is and it depends, there is really two angles, the first angle I really like is basically presenting like, now they have all the stuff, what problems are they going to have now? 

On the dating niche, we basically said, you guys are going, and this comes from market researches, basically these guys they are so scared really, like they get this product, now they can talk to girls. In reality they’re just hoping for numbers. These guys who get the product, in their mind they don’t think they are going to have girl problems. Now it’s like, okay, they get the Tao of Badass, they get this product, they are going to have all these great new things happen to them. But now it’s like, wait, you guys haven’t dealt with this before, so I took it as the angle, it’s like what new problems are they going to have. 

John:Yep. 

Jim:Obviously its done in a copy thing, but this is like if you’re, if you’re a content creator, it’s going to be put on the coaches, like if they lose a ton of weight, the problem might be, what’s the new problem going to be, and you have to handle it, and this upsell is going to handle that. The dating it’s like, okay, you are going to deal with crazy girls, you’re going to get over the mindset of, you’ve to chase every woman, you just realize some of these women are batshit crazy. How do you deal with crazy girls? How do you deal with multiple girls? 

We use a story of a guy, he had two girls pounding on his door at the same time and he is like freaking out, because it’s never ever had happened before. It’s something, what new problems are they going to have, and then solving those problems, and finding those problems comes from market research and from your emails of. It usually comes from pretty good testimonials of guys like, hey, I did this, but if it’s weight-loss or something, I don’t have any jeans that fit like, how do I style myself, something like that, I’m not saying write a styling thing, but something you’re introducing new problems, more money more problems and how to handle those new problems. 

John:One way that I was thinking about it when I had to do the funnel in Facebook was that, like everything needs to flow. The cool thing, the interesting part it covers, it needs to flow from one thing to the next very naturally. When I … I coach people from time to time, and when I see that copy, usually the biggest problem is it just doesn’t flow, they jump from one idea to next too quickly or it’s a bit disjointed or there was no connection. It is like selling a dating, sell the main dating product and then selling a book on maybe how to cook, it doesn’t really flow. You can see a connection there, but it’s not that close of a connection whereas [crosstalk00:14:53] you know what I mean. 

Jim:Exactly. I think it’s a congruence, I think a part of a good lead into an upsell whether it’s a, you are doing a VSL or sales letter form is reassuring that their product is awesome. I noticed what you said, I think it’s disjointed when they get this, they get this product, whatever product they are getting and then it has jumped to a page, and it’s like, but wait, you need this. It’s like versus I think putting in a couple, just a few paragraphs of like this product works great, this is this, but you got a problem, you might run into this, this has been, in my experience or client’s experience. That keeps that congruence, just like you said, you don’t want to disjoint them and be like a whiz. 

John:It’s like you’d … I was selling a template, template for the first email in their sequence and the upsell was basically like, thanks for signing up, Templeton is waiting your email, blah, blah, blah, it’s good because of this, just reiterating the benefits of the sale, and then saying, that one was actually, that wasn’t much of a prologue, which is like, he want through me more templates, he used three more, and that was the upsell. 

But then in the next one, I’ve sent number two, that was like, all right, so these templates, they will use a storytelling format, which is great. You feel like the templates, they are going to work really, really good for you, but what about this, what if you want to write your own templates. What if you want to come up with your own ideas in your own stores, because right now these templates aren’t going to teach you anything, so you don’t actually know how to do it yourself yet. That’s why you need to learn how to tell stories, and that’s where my new product, my other product, Stories That Sell, comes in. It’s like you use that, you have that lead in that pre-frames the upsell. 

Jim:Exactly, it’s staying congruent across the board. It makes them way more interesting at least in my opinion but or sales. 

John:One thing I’ve noticed with email marketing is when you are trying to position the pitch at the end of the email, the whole idea of the email is all you are doing is pre-framing, all you are doing is like thinking what thought, what thoughts do I need to inject into someone’s head, so that when I introduce the idea of the product, they are going to receive it favorably. 

Jim:It’s a great way of putting it, for sure, into keep in that conversation in that head. 

John:Tell me about like what happens on, let’s say like I go and buy the Tao of Badass or, I keep calling it the Tow, I know it’s the Tao. 

Jim:It’s Tao. 

John:Let’s say I buy that product or I buy a golf [inaudible00:17:18] or I buy a product that you’ve written copy for and then you’ve created a whole bunch of upsells, I go to PayPal or I go to pay, and then I get, after PayPal what happens? You send me to a page with a video on it or text on it, both? 

Jim:We tested a couple of ways and we found, when you get the Tao and after you pay for it, it lands on a VSL and it’s told from a student’s perspective. It’s a VSL or, VSL plays in underneath these bullets and the offer again. It’s the exact same thing that’s said in the VSL, we tested a couple of different ways and this way it works best for us. 

Basically it’s a student that says, Hi, its Brad here, it’s basically he reassures him, I’m really glad you are here, and yes, the things do work, like I was. It’s a very, very small story, because it going out for the low-hanging fruit, and it’s a very small story, like I was a nerd and I couldn’t do well with women and I went with Josh’s thing, and it was absolutely incredible. But the issue was is that I, all of a sudden had these problems I never knew would exist. Most of our clients when they, you notice this, when they first got this, they never knew they existed. 

Josh created what’s called the Advanced Coaches Prep Course, and then it goes into, it’s like here is what you’re going to find because here are some of the other common problems you are going to hit, and then here is what you are going to find inside. It gives a little bit of the fear, like we’d see what happens if you run into a gold digger because we had guys [inaudible00:18:49] our gold digger, it’s just funny because generally guys were [inaudible00:18:53] gold digger, driving like a ’97 Honda Civic at work. It’s really bizarre. 

It goes into what problems they are going to run into and how this course is going to handle it, and then the guarantee and stuff. The VSL plays and then underneath it is the bullets that I mentioned, pretty good stack of bullets, and then the offer, same thing. If they watch a whole VSL and read it, they are going to see the same thing, and then the guarantee. There is a bunch of Buy buttons, I don’t want to make it sound like a, it’s all Buy buttons, but there is one right below the VSL to handle low hanging fruit, and there is one right at the end of the bullets, there is one at the end of the offer, and there is one at the very, very bottom of the page. 

John:Now when you click that, let’s say I clicked that one underneath the video, does that cycle me down to where the offer is, or does that make me to the payment form? 

Jim:It takes you to the payment form. 

John:I have to reenter my details or are you guys are doing a one click upsell? 

Jim:It’s already, I think it’s just, it’s already coded in so it just adds to the order. Then all of a sudden if they button, no thanks, I think I’ll pass in this and I understand I’ll never see this again. Very standard stuff, and then it goes to another upsell after that is to how we have, but actually we got to swap that upsell or we are going to test that upsell if that’s an entirely new product here pretty soon. 

John:Interesting, you got the main product and then two upsells. 

Jim:Then obviously it goes to the downsells, and the downsells basically if you click off, it just goes to like the bullet form. You say, hey, just in case, here is some of the problems you are going to run into, and here is what, just in case, here it is again. It reassures, we know that you are probably going to be able to handle a lot of issues with women, but so you may or may not need this, but you just might want to take again or in case you are worried about what are these things. Then it just goes, goes down into the bullets again, and then another Buy button, and it’s the same thing on the last upsell. 

John:All right, let’s just, just to summarize all that, we’ve got the main product, you buy that, you go to PayPal, you come back, you go to a page which has a video and text on it. That’s basically for upsell number one. And if you buy that you go to upsell number two. Now if you don’t buy it and you click no, that will take you at the downsell. The downsell is like, let’s say you just offered something for $50, you downsell them to, offer them something a little bit smaller for $30 because maybe the price was the problem, so you downsell them. Is the downsell page the same as the upsell page with the video and text and all that? 

Jim:No, there is no video or text, it’s just a bulletin, it’s like I said, it’s the price difference, I think we offer, it’s just payments, and its price difference, but wait, we want to make sure you don’t miss this. It’s the bullets again, just in case here again, because at that point they are just skittling, just like get rid of, I don’t know if I want this. We are just hoping that one of the bullets catches them or a few but, then its same thing in the next one. 

The last one is just a sales pitch, it’s very short, because we think if, what we’ve done, the shorter ones seem to be handling the low-hanging fruit more, but at that point if they’ve agreed or not agreed, but hopefully they agree. We go on if they agreed, they are already prequalified, so we don’t need to spend a shit ton of time trying to sell them because I think, that has the reverse effect at that point. 

It’s the quick thing of what it is. Its more of a handholding thing, which is actually the other angle like, like here is the VIP, we are going to hold your hand, it’s a handholding thing for us. It’s on confidence, which is ideally very tough to sell in the dating space. We sell, you are going to handhold it, like you are going to look deeper inside yourself, speaking in language of that client, the guy who is already buying a lot of stuff. That comes from just research, really like your own, lot of from daily emails, understanding how they respond back, and the good clients tend to be curious about confidence. 

They read the book and they are like, man, like I never realized how I was a doormat for all my life, this is really interesting, do you have anything else I can figure on this? I just use that language on the third upsell of, here is what you are going to find, so it targets that guy who is most likely afterward he reads a couple of chapters of the book, probably when he gets at that night, he is going to do like, okay, I want to work on confidence, so we are targeting him before. 

John:I liked it. If someone is listening and they wanted to implement this, basically the idea is that, you got that product, whatever that happens to be. This could even be a service product, you could be selling a ten email order, you could be selling a kitchen, a commercial kitchen for $40,000, or whatever. The point is, is after that purchase happens, you can make another offer. Now if you are doing, selling with the Tao of Badass, you’ve got, you are going to be using this with webpage, so they got your PayPal, they come back and if you are using advanced or a good checkout system, you can make it a one click upsell, which is why when they click that Buy button, when they buy the first product, it says the order is complete, but it hasn’t processed yet. 

Then they go to the upsell page, and then if they click the Buy button, it will just automatically add it to their order and then 10 minutes later or half an hour later when they’ve left that page the credit card would be hit with the charge of the original product plus however many upsells you’ve got. That’s a one click upsell. 

Somebody could do this to your webpage or you could be selling like a commercial kitchen and someone comes in like, ah, I’ll take this commercial kitchen. How about do you want these $10,000 taps? They are great taps, they’ve got a lifetime guarantee. How about this floor mat and how about just all these random crap, which is good, it’s got to solve some of its problems. It can’t be random crap that no one wants, it’s got to be stuff, this is [inaudible00:25:10] recently. Do you know Ryan Holiday? 

Jim:I don’t know him. 

John:He has got this great book, right. It’s a great book for someone like us, as a copywriter who, it’s all about direct response, it’s all about like, often the emphasis in our industry is placed on, you do have a crappy product, but if you have a really good copy or a good positioning or you are a good marketer or a good salesman, you can sell it. That’s true to a point. But even Gary Halbert mentions in one of his things that you could have the offer or the thing you are actually selling. That’s the best way to change the response, it’s not the copy, it’s not the headline, it’s not any of that, just a better offer, which is the same thing as saying that sell shit that someone actually, he wants to buy. 

Here comes the upsells and even just the original product, it can’t be just a random thing, it can’t be like, do you want to buy this $10,000 taps as well? Even if they’ve already got taps, they don’t even want taps, that’s not going to work. I like how you brought up the issue of, you’ve been doing market research, you’ve got to survey them, you’ve got to know what you could do, and if you had enough traffic for it you could even, I don’t know how you do the survey, but maybe you could do like, do the product and then after the purchase you could send them to a survey instead of the upsell, at least initially to gather some data on what’s the next thing they want to buy. 

Jim:Exactly. Also it comes from, if you have your product, the feedback that you get from are like, our second upsell which, the one that is going right now is absolutely crushing. A lot of it just came from, we were trying to for awhile, we were trying to crack the code of, okay, at least, the VSL was so strong, it makes it sound like they are just going to stare at a girl and get it on. How the heck are we going to do this? 

I was just doing research and we are looking at the replies back, [Gerard 00:26:51] is looking at the testimonials and then on the testimonials that’s going to hit me, and also I got to give credit, I don’t know if you’ve heard it but as in a mastermind with Ben Settle and Andre Chaperon and Ryan Levesque and Jack Born. They gave me, they planted a seed in my head, I went back, and all of a sudden I found some of our top guys with these crazy problems that they never ever experience, all of a sudden they go from nerd and now they have two girls pounding on their door at night, and he already has a girl inside and these two girls outside, don’t know each other. 

It’s us taking almost the ridiculous testimonials or also like, hey, I’m running into this issue, like what if girls are liars, I’m scared to approach girls, I really believe in your thing but I’m really scared to approach, what if she is going to lie or be a gold digger, it was like putting on the detective cap, which I think John Carlton calls it, it definitely, I busted my ass finding that language and then that was it, I was like okay, here is the new problems and then coming from a coach’s perspective of, okay, how are they going to handle these new issues? That was what hit for us. 

John:I like that. I mentioned the book that actually, it was funny, I was about to mention that book but didn’t actually mention it. It’s called Growth Hacker Marketing by Ryan Holiday, and he calls it. 

Jim:Cool. 

John:In the startup industry, he talks about how with IBM being with Dropbox and [Uburu00:28:19], these companies they never started out as companies they are today worth billions of dollars. They started out with like, they were servicing a tiny market, like Airbnb was an airbed and breakfast for conference attendees who didn’t want to stay in the conference hotel. That’s how it started. 

But then what happens as they do that they are not really getting enough traction, they are not that happy, so they iterate, they try changing the [inaudible00:28:40] words, more just general hotels and more and more, and just broaden it. What they are looking for is a product market fit, which is a point where they are selling something that just fits the problem that the prospect has, like a freaking glove, so that when they talk about, like here is the idea, here is the offer, the prospect, the person is just like, well, I’m in, I’m in, here is my hand, here is my money. 

What you are talking it is using these research and these testimonials and the stuff to just drive products because you don’t want to sell just randomize, like you can’t sell, a lot of people think it’s coming with a product and they go find a market to sell, but it’s the other way around, you find the market, find out what they want. What would they want to buy? What problem are they, what problem would they love to spend money on to solve? Because they’ve probably got … they’ve got problems, but they are not going to spend money to solve. They are just not urgent enough, but you to need find out what problems they had that they are willing to spend money on. 

Jim:Exactly, and sometimes you have to create a product to that instead of trying to, just like so you can’t stuff something down their throat, just because it’s the only other product you have and sometimes you just got to psyche it up and create it. The easiest way, if you don’t have it is to do a really VIP handholding thing where they have access to you. That’s, one of the golfoffers I’m with, it’s really just starting out, it’s complete opposite of Tao. 

We have a hundred, couple thousand guys in our list, and these guys have, literally just at ground zero. They don’t have a product, so the upsell that we have is a handholding thing, its access to the pro. Wow, you have access to the guy. You get swing submissions, you get access, he is going to hold your hand, he is going to formulate a plan for you, if you feel like you don’t want it necessarily, you can go it on your own with your program, but if you want a little bit more you are going to have full-on access to the actual creator, you’ll make it soundlike the shit, it’s a hungry market, like okay, I’ve got this like, I want access to this guy, how do I get them so we are going to give you a little, more of a step-by-step handholding, upsell. 

John:Golf market. 

Jim:Versus, because they didn’t have anything, so it’s like, buy legal pads for or something that doesn’t make any sense, like golf socks or something but. 

John:But something, there is just like [inaudible00:31:00] with my sales funnel I’ve been doing with Facebook, like it’s the upsells could be, because usually you might have, I’m selling like $17 product, then going straight to a 50 and then $100. I’m jacking out the price with each upsell, what happens is all the money comes in on those upsells. It’s like even if you don’t have any products [inaudible00:31:16] just slap something together. The point is it doesn’t have to be the most beautiful thing in the world, it just has to solve something, so we are willing, someone wants to solve. 

Jim:Exactly. 

John:Cool, man, all right, we are right on time here. Before we go though, I know you mentioned that you are not taking VSL clients, you are all booked up, which is great, but if you people want to learn more about you, where is, or maybe even send you an email and get in touch or get on your waiting list, maybe even start a waiting list. What’s the place in the context, go to your website at kickasscopy.com, right? 

Jim:Yes, kickasscopy.com, it’s not up and running yet, it should be, it should have a blog post soon, but if you want to find me right now, and I’ll probably make an announcement, its at I’m on Facebook, would probably the easiest, instead of sending to a dead link but. It’s just, Facebook.com/jim.clair.9. On there are probably key people posted when like kickasscopy is up and running, which should be hopefully, a blog post should be coming in a couple of days anyway, [Inaudible00:32:22] should be up and running. 

John:This episode will go live in say six weeks, seven weeks. By the time this is out, your website should be up. 

Jim:I [inaudible00:32:30] so kickasscopy.com, I think it’s backslash blog should be up and running by then. 

John:Should be up and running, right. 

Jim:Or you can stalk me on Facebook or something. 

John:Sounds good, Jim, I really appreciate you coming on, this has been good to have you on the show. 

Jim:It’s been great, John, I appreciate you having me on.