GTM Engineer School Podcast E7: "Messaging, No Matter What Else You Do" | Jason Pulliam
About our guest — Jason Pulliam
Jason Pulliam is a fractional CMO and founder of Vitality Marketing Firm, specializing in helping early to mid-stage B2B companies ($1-20M revenue) develop differentiated messaging and execute high-ROI outbound campaigns.
As one of Octave’s most vocal power users, Jason has built a reputation for diving deep into deliverability, leveraging AI for prospect research, and proving that campaign quality always beats volume. His approach combines old-school direct response copywriting principles with modern GTM engineering tools to deliver predictable revenue outcomes—often within 90 days.
Core takeaways
GTM Engineering defined: “Building the infrastructure that turns signals into revenue. It’s sales ops and marketing automation, but the tooling and the data are where the decision-making converges to move the money.”
The stack transformation: Before GTM engineering, we were slaves to our tools. APIs didn’t exist, Zapier was the only power user option, and your stack dictated your motion. Now the stack conforms to the motion—builders design for control, not convenience.
Clay as infrastructure: “Clay is the Zapier of our time. I’m not even using their native enrichment tools—I’m using their API to bring in my own tools. At some point we’ll look back and say Clay was the Zapier of yesteryear.”
Messaging is non-negotiable: “No matter what else you do, if you don’t have your messaging right, it doesn’t matter how cool and automated and signal-led your whole GTM is.”
The $40K case study: A lower mid-market M&A client with only 6,000 targetable prospects. Jason’s team sent signal-stacked emails mentioning overnight packages, got 50 replies, sent 50 physical packages, and converted 5 deals worth several hundred thousand in fees—10x ROI.
Deliverability over warm-up: Email Bison and Email Guard are underrated tools that give granular control over deliverability. They’re designed for power users who already know how to send cold email, not first-timers.
The 60-day learning curve: For every client, Jason spends the first 60 days capturing every reply variation and objection. After building 50-60 different reply templates, the subject matter expert can step back—the system knows all the answers.
AI as knowledge base: Jason uses Typing Mind to load entire copywriting books, client playbooks, and reply templates. This creates a constantly-improving knowledge base that educates virtual assistants and SDRs on how to respond to any scenario.
Build your database: Track every email subject, body, and reply rate. After 50+ campaigns, dump it into AI and ask: “What are the patterns? Why did these work?” This is how you develop true campaign intelligence.
Study the greats: Read direct response copywriters like John Caples, Eugene Schwartz, Gary Halbert, and David Ogilvy. Load their books into AI and ask them to help you think through problems. Their logic still holds because it’s based on fundamental human psychology.
Top quotes
On messaging: “Octave helps you figure out who your target market is and how to talk to them. Even at a fundamental level, it helps you think out what problems you solve for different categories of people.”
On Clay’s role: “Clay is kind of the Zapier of our time. It’s just a connector into everything. Even if I think about Clay, I’m not even using the enrichment tools that they have native—I’m using their API and going and bringing in my own tools.”
On authenticity in AI: “In an age where everything is now free and unlimited and looks real but it’s fake—an age of ‘frake’—being authentic now stands out. Your brand now matters more because if everybody’s selling the same stuff, what makes you different? It’s your brand and your history.”
On learning from clients: “Every single time I start with a new client, I’m like, I don’t know what the answer is, but I’m going to be able to solve it. After 60 days, I normally can eliminate the subject matter expert from the loop because we already know all the answers.”
On campaign quality: “I care more about how it works than how fast it scales. I can’t afford to just keep trying different things at high volume. Every single time something doesn’t work, I go all the way back.”
On direct response wisdom: “80% of the answers are within 20 feet of where the work’s being done. If you can figure out how your ICP thinks, it answers a lot of other downstream problems.”
On the weekend reading assignment: “If you have eight hours, read ‘Made to Stick.’ That book will make you understand why some of your campaigns and messaging work and others don’t.”
Referenced tools and resources
Typing Mind: Multi-LLM interface that lets Jason run Claude, ChatGPT, and other models side-by-side for the best output per task
Octave: Messaging platform for structuring ICP, playbooks, and value props—Jason’s top GTM engineering tool
Clay: Data orchestration and enrichment platform (”the Zapier of our time”)
Email Bison: Underrated sequencer with granular deliverability control
Email Guard: Partner tool to Email Bison for deep email deliverability management
Instantly / Smartlead: Alternative email sequencers (Jason prefers Email Bison for control)
AirScale: Obscure enrichment tool for accessing founder data
BetterEnrich: Custom data enrichment source
Ocean.io: Lookalike enrichment provider
Copywriting Books
“Made to Stick” by Chip Heath and Dan Heath: Jason’s #1 weekend reading recommendation
“Breakthrough Advertising” by Eugene Schwartz
John Caples (”They Laughed When I Sat Down at the Piano”)
Gary Halbert (direct response legend)
David Ogilvy (advertising fundamentals)
Other
Commercial scanner: Jason uses this to gut books and load them into AI (cuts the spine, scans pages)
OpenRouter: Subscription service for accessing multiple LLM APIs through one account
Timestamps
(00:00) Introduction to Jason Pulliam and Vitality Marketing Firm
(01:56) Jason’s definition: GTM engineering as “RevOps and growth hacking having a baby”
(04:43) The shift from tools controlling motion to motion controlling tools
(06:38) Lightning Round: CRM preferences—why Jason avoids HubSpot and Salesforce
(07:24) LLMs: Typing Mind as the “cockpit” for all models
(07:52) Top enrichment tool: “Clay all the way baby, I’m married”
(08:43) Most underrated tool: Email Bison and Email Guard for deliverability
(10:05) Current GTM stack: Typing Mind, Email Bison/Guard, Octave, Clay
(13:40) Why Octave is Jason’s #1 GTM tool—messaging before automation
(15:11) How Jason uses Octave playbooks to build reply knowledge bases
(18:14) The M&A campaign case study: 6,000 prospects, 50 replies, $40K spend,hundreds of thousands in revenue
(21:27) Building reply intelligence: 60 days to capture every objection
(24:12) Emerging GTM skill: Patience—workflows take time to tune
(25:09) Communication clarity: Explaining technical concepts to average users
(27:28) Learning advice: Real-life use cases beat endless LinkedIn scrolling
(30:42) Where to find Jason
How to connect with Jason
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit gtmengineerschool.substack.com