80,000 Hours Podcast
#144 – Athena Aktipis on why cancer is actually one of our universe's most fundamental phenomena
Episode guests
Podcast summary created with Snipd AI
Quick takeaways
- Cancer reflects breakdowns in cellular cooperation and leads to uncontrolled proliferation and resource monopolization.
- Life history theory explains how organisms adapt strategies to prevent cancer based on their survival and reproductive goals.
- Adaptive therapy is a less aggressive approach to cancer treatment aiming to prevent resistant cell evolution and promote stable tumor maintenance.
- Restorative justice is compared to adaptive therapy, focusing on social reintegration and addressing root causes, not just punitive measures.
- Analogies between environmental damage and cancerous behavior illustrate the importance of cooperation and sustainability for future well-being.
- Concerns about combining artificial intelligence and human collaboration for harmful intentions highlight the risks of exploiting systems and manipulating information.
Deep dives
Evolution of Cooperation and Conflict in Multicellular Life
Multicellular life involves cooperation and conflict between genes and cells, as discussed in the podcast. Cellular cooperation, seen in multicellular life, breaks down into conflict, leading to issues like cancer. The podcast examines how similar cooperation and conflict dynamics manifest at different levels of organization from cells to civilizations across the universe.
Cancer Biology and Multicellularity
Cancer biology is explored in the context of multicellularity, emphasizing the breakdown of cellular cooperation leading to cancer. The principles of inhibition of proliferation, control of cell death, resource transfer, division of labor, and environmental maintenance underpin multicellular cooperation, which are disrupted in cancer. Insights from the 'cheating cell' theory are used to analyze cancer as a breakdown in these foundational principles.
Life History Theory and Adaptations to Reduce Cancer Risk
Life history theory explains how organisms adapt their survival and reproductive strategies. Large, long-lived organisms like elephants invest in somatic maintenance to prevent cancer, whereas fast-reproducing organisms like mice prioritize reproduction over cancer prevention. The trade-offs in cellular maintenance, rapid cell turnover for wound healing, and evolutionary adaptations in large organisms contribute to reducing cancer risks.
Life History Strategies and Evolutionary Trade-Offs
The podcast discusses the concept of life history strategies focusing on fast versus slow adaptations based on environmental pressures. Organisms evolve differently when faced with high extrinsic mortality leading to less investment in somatic maintenance.
Anti-Cancer Mechanisms and Longevity
Efforts to extend human life and combat aging involve enhancing anti-cancer mechanisms. Strategies include potentially using drugs to boost existing processes to prevent cancer, but this may lead to unintended consequences such as slower healing.
Adaptive Therapy and Managing Cancer
Adaptive therapy is explored as an approach to cancer treatment, where tumors are treated less aggressively to allow sensitive cells to proliferate and maintain a more stable tumor. The strategy aims to prevent the evolution of resistant cells and allow patients to live longer with late-stage cancer.
Restorative Justice and Crime Management
Restorative justice is compared to adaptive therapy, focusing on rebuilding social relationships and addressing harmful behavior rather than solely punitive measures. The approach seeks to reintegrate offenders into society and address root causes of crime.
Sustainable Behaviors and Global Impact
Analogies are drawn between damaging the environment and cancerous behavior, highlighting how human actions affecting the planet's resources can parallel short-sighted actions seen in cancer. Emphasizing sustainability and cooperation is essential for the well-being of future generations.
Implications of Cooperation and Conflict in Apocalyptic Scenarios
Apocalyptic scenarios prompt considerations of complex cooperation dynamics and conflicts that may arise. The podcast delves into the potential implications of cooperation breaking down and organisms turning towards selfish behaviors, resembling a transmissible cancer. The discussion highlights the importance of cooperation for intelligent life forms to thrive as they navigate the challenges of interplanetary survival.
Genetic Conflicts and Evolutionary Dynamics
The podcast explores intricate genetic conflicts within organisms, from cells competing for resources to genes exhibiting cheating behavior. It delves into how maternal and paternal genes in sexual reproduction engage in a tug of war, influencing resource allocation and survival strategies. The conversation sheds light on the adaptive mechanisms and constraints that influence evolutionary dynamics, such as gene suppression mechanisms and DNA replication errors.
Challenges of AI and Human Interaction
The speaker expresses concerns about the potential dangers posed by the combination of artificial intelligence (AI) and human collaboration aimed at malevolent goals. They highlight the critical issue of leveraging human cognitive abilities along with AI's processing power to potentially exploit and undermine systems. The speaker emphasizes the significant risks associated with this interaction, particularly in scenarios where AI and human intentions align negatively, leading to advanced exploitation and manipulation of information.
Preparing for Catastrophes and the Importance of Cooperation
The conversation delves into the importance of proactive risk management and preparedness for various catastrophic events, such as pandemics, natural disasters, or potential apocalyptic scenarios like a nuclear war. The speaker emphasizes building a community-based approach towards risk management, advocating for cooperation, mutual assistance, and forming supportive networks to enhance resilience during crises. By discussing practical tips like having emergency supplies, fostering shared responsibilities, and engaging in cooperative efforts, the discussion encourages a playful yet strategic approach to understanding and preparing for potential apocalyptic scenarios.
If you answered “cure,” “antidote,” or “antivenom” — you’ve obviously been reading the antonym section at www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/cancer.
But today’s guest Athena Aktipis says that the opposite of cancer is us: it's having a functional multicellular body that’s cooperating effectively in order to make that multicellular body function.
If, like us, you found her answer far more satisfying than the dictionary, maybe you could consider closing your dozens of merriam-webster.com tabs, and start listening to this podcast instead.
Links to learn more, summary and full transcript.
As Athena explains in her book The Cheating Cell, what we see with cancer is a breakdown in each of the foundations of cooperation that allowed multicellularity to arise:
• Cells will proliferate when they shouldn't.
• Cells won't die when they should.
• Cells won't engage in the kind of division of labour that they should.
• Cells won’t do the jobs that they're supposed to do.
• Cells will monopolise resources.
• And cells will trash the environment.
When we think about animals in the wild, or even bacteria living inside our cells, we understand that they're facing evolutionary pressures to figure out how they can replicate more; how they can get more resources; and how they can avoid predators — like lions, or antibiotics.
We don’t normally think of individual cells as acting as if they have their own interests like this. But cancer cells are actually facing similar kinds of evolutionary pressures within our bodies, with one major difference: they replicate much, much faster.
Incredibly, the opportunity for evolution by natural selection to operate just over the course of cancer progression is easily faster than all of the evolutionary time that we have had as humans since *Homo sapiens* came about.
Here’s a quote from Athena:
“So you have to shift your thinking to be like: the body is a world with all these different ecosystems in it, and the cells are existing on a time scale where, if we're going to map it onto anything like what we experience, a day is at least 10 years for them, right? So it's a very, very different way of thinking.”
You can find compelling examples of cooperation and conflict all over the universe, so Rob and Athena don’t stop with cancer. They also discuss:
• Cheating within cells themselves
• Cooperation in human societies as they exist today — and perhaps in the future, between civilisations spread across different planets or stars
• Whether it’s too out-there to think of humans as engaging in cancerous behaviour
• Why elephants get deadly cancers less often than humans, despite having way more cells
• When a cell should commit suicide
• The strategy of deliberately not treating cancer aggressively
• Superhuman cooperation
And at the end of the episode, they cover Athena’s new book Everything is Fine! How to Thrive in the Apocalypse, including:
• Staying happy while thinking about the apocalypse
• Practical steps to prepare for the apocalypse
• And whether a zombie apocalypse is already happening among Tasmanian devils
And if you’d rather see Rob and Athena’s facial expressions as they laugh and laugh while discussing cancer and the apocalypse — you can watch the video of the full interview.
Get this episode by subscribing to our podcast on the world’s most pressing problems and how to solve them: type 80,000 Hours into your podcasting app.
Producer: Keiran Harris
Audio mastering: Milo McGuire
Transcriptions: Katy Moore
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