After centuries of objectification, women are finally taking control of their sexualities

Episode Summary

The “Sexual Revolution” started more than 60 years ago, but in a lot of ways, having complete control over your own choices when it comes to dating, sex, and family is only just now becoming a reality for many people. That’s particularly true for women since far-right Republicans have continuously rejected the idea that abortion and birth control should be legal.

But the radical right’s refusal to accept bodily autonomy isn’t the only thing that’s stood in the way of women’s ability to make their own choices. Despite some advances, it is also the case that businesses and society as a whole have not fully accepted the idea that women’s bodies are not communal possessions, subject to public comment or disapproval. The constant pressure from other people that girls and women face also filters inward, my guest on today’s episode argues, making for yet another external pressure that prevents women from full autonomy.

Realizing how this happens and how to overcome it is the topic of Suzannah Weiss’s new book, Subjectified: Becoming a Sexual Subject, which is out now in bookstores and online.

Weiss is a writer and sexologist based in Los Angeles. As a sex educator certified by the American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors, and Therapists, she has taught courses and given talks on topics including consent, orgasms, childbirth, non-monogamy, and neurodiversity. She is regularly quoted as an expert in publications like Cosmopolitan and Men's Health as resident sexologist for Biird and also works as a sex/love coach, birth doula, and sexual assault counselor. You can find her on Twitter and Instagram.

The video of this discussion is available. The transcript of audio is below. Because of its length, some podcast apps and email programs may truncate it. Access the episode page to get the full text.

Cover photo: Diego Rosa

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Audio Chapters

00:00 — Introduction

05:36 — Suzannah’s career as a sex writer

07:32 — Early experiences of sexual objectification

15:03 — Commercialization of feminism

17:46 — Eating disorders and objectification

21:33 — The self-pleasure gap between men and women

23:46 — How new age movements also perpetuate sexism

28:30 — How social movements can be both exploitative and empowering of women simultaneously

34:55 — Hugh Hefner's legacy

39:20 — Body neutrality vs. body positivity

40:45 — Male body positivity and societal expectations

46:51 — The politics of pubic hair

49:30 — Sex work as personal liberation and a societal force

Audio Transcript

The following is a machine-generated transcript of the audio that has not been proofed. It is provided for convenience purposes only.

Matthew Sheffield: So the title of the book is “Subjectified,” and then the subtitle is “Becoming a Sexual Subject,” and it is something you go back to in literally every single chapter, and you do that with good reason. But what do you mean by becoming a sexual subject first?

Suzannah Weiss: By subject, I mean the opposite of objects. So the book is about how women can go beyond their own objectification and having their own sexuality. And so I play with the concepts of subject and object, both in the traditional sense of objectification of women and in the sort of literary sense of who [00:03:00] gets to be in the subject and object roles of sentences.

And so each chapter is a verb and talks about how women can be the subjects of that verb when they are normally the objects. So for instance, women are often taught To be the objects of desire or the objects of the gaze or the objects of romantic interest. And so the goal of the book is to talk about how women can be the subjects of all of those things, how they can focus on their own desires, how they can focus on what they're looking at.

How they can focus on what their interests and goals are, not just in sex, but in life. And I also talk about how “Subjectified,” the title is a little bit ironic because it's in the passive voice. So women, when I talk about subjectifying women, are the objects. But I go into that in some of the later chapters, how women can be objects and [00:04:00] subjects.

And sometimes being an object is what you desire. And if that is your desire, it's also okay to be an object.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah. And I mean, and it is definitely you, definitely deal with the idea of sexual objectification quite a bit. So for people who haven't read A lot of feminist literature. what, does the term objectification mean for, people who are not familiar

Suzannah Weiss: objectification of women means seeing women as being there to fulfill other people's desires. Usually men's desires rather than their own.

So objectification can mean sexualized media images, advertising that focuses on disembodied women's like boobs or other body parts. It can mean in the way we talk about sex as if it's something for that's just for sex. women's duty to their partners, or that it is women's duty to look good to their [00:05:00] partners, especially if they are men.

It is basically the idea that women are there for men's pleasure. And as I discuss in the book, I also talk about how this shows up even in feminist movements, even in movements like Body positivity focusing on how all kinds of women can be sexually arousing to look at or In even discussions about consent that tend to focus on women's ability to say yes or no to men's desires rather than having their own

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah, and we'll definitely get into that as we go along here.

Suzannah's career as a sex writer

Matthew Sheffield: so and you you're writing this book from your experience as a sex writer. So maybe let's just give it a little overview of, your, your career, like when did you start doing that? And why did you start doing it? And like, what are some of the maybe if you have any stories that you think are worth sharing from that experience as well.

Suzannah Weiss: Yeah. So this book [00:06:00] is very first person. Every chapter talks about my journey with some element of sexual empowerment, and it's based on my nine year career as a sex and relationship writer. having adventures such as going to clothing optional resorts, going to sex parties, going to a women's masturbation workshop.

And the common theme, not always, but is seeing how women are still objectified in settings meant to empower them. And probably one of the experiences that inspired the book the most was my experience at a clothing optional resort that was saying they were there to empower women. And yet women were, there were just pictures of naked women everywhere.

There was a double standard in terms of like, women are. expected to hook up with other women, but God forbid men [00:07:00] hook up with other men. And there, there was just this male gaze, which is a concept I talk about a lot, this assumption that women should be catering to this stereotypical heterosexual male gaze, or that gaze is in objective perspective, that particular taste for looking at naked women, for instance.

So, yeah, there were many experiences like that shaped this book.

Matthew Sheffield: Huh. Yeah. Yeah, and we'll definitely get into that further.

Early experiences of sexual objectification

Matthew Sheffield: And I guess, early, the early parts of the book, you are talking about how, you know, you became aware of yourself as, sexual object by society from a very young age.

And, it's something that a lot of women unfortunately do have that realization when they're young girls. There was a friend of mine who's a writer and podcaster named Jamilah Lemieux, and she had a [00:08:00] Twitter thread where she just asked her followers, how old were you when adult men started coming for you. And it was really disturbing.

Suzannah Weiss: Yeah.

Matthew Sheffield: And there were a lot of women who were like, yeah, well, I was eight. I was, nine, I was 11. And not every woman has that experience, some of the women that I know didn't really have that, have to deal with that when they were younger, but it is an aspect of sexualization that it isn't talked about as much as it should be.

You talked about your own experience with that as well, becoming aware of your body as seen through others, right?

Suzannah Weiss: Yes. The way I describe that experience [00:09:00] is it's as if my eyes left their sockets and stood in outer space looking at me instead of looking at the rest of the world.

They call this, psychologists call this objectified body consciousness, where you are of your body as an object. And you look at your face almost if it's a, as if it's a mask, you lose a sense of connection to the sensations and perceptions that your body is experiencing. And you feel you focus instead on what, how other people are experiencing you.

And that's how I felt. For me, it was probably around 12 or 13 when I noticed little things like one man telling me I look developed and some guys talking about looking down girls shirts in school. It was this very weird experience of thinking the world is in my eyes. And then suddenly I'm inside other people's eyes, and they are sizing me [00:10:00] up, and it's my duty to look or perform a certain way for them.

It takes you out of your body, this experience.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah. And, I think, to some degree, there's it's, it might, it's too easy to think, though, that these types of, Expectations and treatment of, girls and women is something that's some sort of modern affectation. But it's really not the case at all.

I mean, there's, this is really a long, history of this in human society and, kind of seeing women as the object of, men's sexuality, not, and not having your own. I mean, like for instance, in the Bible the Hebrew Bible, there's prohibitions on male. homosexual acts, but there are no prohibitions on female homosexual acts because that's not even considered a possibility that women would want to do. That, that's my favorite example of it. And also maybe who knows [00:11:00] why. So

Suzannah Weiss: what you're saying is God is okay with lesbians.

Matthew Sheffield: Yes, basically that's what it seems like. And it does fit that, and it does kind of fit that, that that experience that you're talking about. So, but also part of that, same age development that you were talking about in this, in the beginning part of the book later on, you also add in the idea of getting your own period and that's something that also is.

Can be a very traumatizing experience for a lot of women. And you talked about your own experience with that. Do you want to talk go into that here a bit, if you could?

Suzannah Weiss: I'm actually working on my second book now, which deals a lot with that. So I didn't Go deep, so deep into that and subjectified that I talk about how women we learn from a young age to expect pain throughout our lives and menstruation is one way in which we learn that and it is very tied to reproduction and this idea that you [00:12:00] have a destiny as a mother.

And that is another thing that can be jarring when you are 9, 10, 11 years old to first learn about that. And like, what? I'm like a baby making machine? And you, it's another way that you kind of learn that you exist for other people. Not that having a period makes that true, but that the way in which it's talked about is often In terms of a sacrifice or in terms of pain that women have to go through in order to bring forth the next generation.

And it feels, and there's also very little context given to it. Like it is unsettling to learn about your vagina bleeding. If you are not told like this is perfectly normal, it's okay. Like it shouldn't be painful if you're not given that context. Yeah. And the book goes into how that's another way in which women learn that their bodies exist for other people.

[00:13:00] This idea that it's their destiny to be mothers.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah, and well, and it also. I mean, I think in a lot of states and localities, it is also the case that many parents or schools do not give girls any sort of instruction about this. And I, mean, I personally, have known a number of women that were like, yeah, I, when I got my period, nobody had told me anything.

They, I had been told generically at some point that would happen to me, but nothing at all about what that meant. Or what I was supposed to do or anything like that. And it's, it is kind of, it's really, it is incredible. I think that's such a, very basic and personal thing that a lot of people, I, I've never told anything about I mean, you, talk about that to some degree, right?

Suzannah Weiss: Yeah. My first [00:14:00] exposure to the idea of periods was when I was like, Almost 11, I was at sleepaway camp and we were playing Mad Libs. And there was one, like, suggestion that we had to fill out was a bad day. And someone yelled, the day before your period! And I was like, what's that? And they were like, it's when your thing bleeds and you grow hair there.

And so I imagine that, like, you were rushed to the hospital and you were bleeding, and then you came out and you suddenly had pubic hair. And then it was very depressing to learn that supposedly happened every month, because I still thought of it as this medical emergency, and there was just no context.

Yeah, and I also talk about how like, now there's all these ideas about women being moon goddesses and menstruation connecting you to your feminine intuition, which felt just as shitty for me to learn about, like, because it's the [00:15:00] stereotype. Projected onto our bodies.

Commercialization of feminism

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah. Well, and, you really do talk about that concept quite a lot of how feminism has kind of been commercialized in a lot of different ways.

And that's a, it is a thing that you talk about in many different facets, but I guess maybe probably most prominently is in a lot of these commercials now that you see that are there, they, claim to be about body positivity, but. They really don't define what that means, but then it's also sexualized at the same time.

And, and like, and I think for, when right wing people see commercials that are, showing women who are not, skinny or showing all different kinds of body types that, or, heights or whatever, or breast sizes that, they get angry at that. And they think of it as an example of leftism run amok, but that's really not what this is.

It is [00:16:00] companies trying to commercialize a social movement that is left wing and in some ways kind of. strip it of its essential message, right?

Suzannah Weiss: Yeah, I mean, I, don't even have an issue with a variety of bodies being shown in advertising. I think that's a good thing, but that's not what I look to for inspiration about my self esteem because it is often about catering to the male gaze and showing that All kinds of women can be sexualized and can be in the same sexualized ads and the same beauty pageants and the same things that are problematic to begin with.

So I don't have an issue with plus size models, obviously, but I am skeptical of any company being the source of women's empowerment because their primary goal is to sell you a product always.

Matthew Sheffield: [00:17:00] Yeah, and yeah, and to not actually really engage with the message. It's like the content is there only because it's something that women are thinking about.

It's not that they actually care about it or even understand what the message fully is. Because like, yeah, if you, actually truly believe in body positivity, then you would understand that having a non sexualized view of a woman's body, like. that's okay, too. Like, you can just show women, you don't have to show women in their underwear in your ad.

You can just have them walking down the street or doing whatever. But, like there it's it really is trying to sort of wrap a commercialized product. Yeah, placement around it. So, and

Eating disorders and objectification

Matthew Sheffield: all of these are messages, though, that yeah, that the, all kinds of different industries are constantly bombarding women and girls, especially teen girls with, and it really has a negative impact on a lot of people having to.[00:18:00]

See these messages that are very, contradictory in many cases and both, somewhat empowering, but also a very objectifying as well. And I mean, you yourself it's a theme that you developed. Persistently is your own experience with a eating disorder that you developed with in, in after being sexualized by other people.

But you want to talk about your experience with that?

Suzannah Weiss: Yes, that was something I experienced when I was in high school and I did not realize what my motives were behind it. After a lot of therapy and also studying gender studies in college. Thank you. I made connections between my own eating disorder and the objectification of women.

And I personally think that to have all these jarring experiences around growing breasts, around menstruation, around things that require a certain amount of fat on your body, [00:19:00] having less fat on my body was a way to protect myself. It was a way to become less fat. objectifiable and to retain my subjecthood in the only way I knew how because nobody had taught me that a woman can be sexual and still be a subject.

I thought the only way to remain a subject was to de sexualize myself so that then I could be free and I could live my own life and I wouldn't be an object for men as opposed to a woman. I can be an object of desire and also have my own desires and those are important and no one taught me that so my only like mode of protection was an eating disorder. So I went to a residential treatment center the summer between high school and college for my eating disorder. And I definitely improved over the course of that time, just having a lot of support.

I'm very thankful for that, but it was really an experience I [00:20:00] had when I got out that I feel healed me. And it was an experience. A lot of people would say is degrading to women that I hooked up with Complete stranger on a beach, on a family vacation. And he, I don't know how much detail to like, it was all about

Matthew Sheffield: it

Suzannah Weiss: was all about my pleasure and I felt really empowered by it.

And I realized that there was a way to be a sexual being without being a mere object and that I have been lied to and that sexuality was something beautiful and empowering for women. And that I think was what it took. To actually get me out of my eating disorder was to see my body as something that was here to feel and to experience pleasure and not just to [00:21:00] please men and not just to be used and not just to be taken advantage of.

And that was how I got into my field of study and I had more empowering experiences in college that show me like, why is there this amazing thing about having a quote unquote woman's body that nobody told me people just told me that it having a woman's body was dangerous and vulnerable and I want people to hear a different message.

The self-pleasure gap between men and women

Matthew Sheffield: and, you do talk about it also in the context of, masturbation as well, that is, it is something that is, that boys learn much younger, generally speaking, than girls. And to some degree, it's not even a lot of women, even as adults, they, really don't have a lot of familiarity with their own body in that way.

And you have a whole chapter on, on that subject. So you, want [00:22:00] to like what, how did, do you, Maybe talk about sort of your watching in your career of seeing other women have to have those realizations that maybe you had at a younger age than some of them.

Suzannah Weiss: Yeah, well, since we learned that women's sexuality exists for men, we don't often talk about female masturbation as if it's normal.

And. The book analyzes a few media examples. The one that comes to mind is American Pie, where these men are spying on this woman masturbating, and it's all like she's doing it for the male gaze. Like, there's literally men spying on her. She doesn't even know that, but she masturbates in a way, as if she knows.

She does, like, a little, she sensually undresses, and, like, plays with her. Perfect breasts and like acts as if she's putting on a show. And I think [00:23:00] I've noticed that in my own mind sometimes, even when I have masturbated, I've been like, what noise should I make? What face should I make? Cause women's sexuality is made out to be this performance rather than something experienced from the inside.

I think it's important for women to have a sexuality outside of that. And I often advise women who are self conscious in the bedroom, not to think about how sexy they are, or that could be a part of it, but to actually focus on their partner and what is turning them on, what, is turning the woman on, not how much she is turning someone else on.

How new age movements also perpetuate sexism

Matthew Sheffield: And I guess within this context, yeah, like the relationship sex context, you do talk about your experience with, um, that is something movement that's kind of calls itself orgasmic [00:24:00] meditation and, you describe it as a world of gender essentialism masquerading as progressive ism. What did you mean by that?

Suzannah Weiss: There's a lot now. That you can find online about orgasmic meditation. They were very corrupt in a number of ways. If you're interested, you can look at the Netflix documentary, orgasm, Inc, but it was basically this sex cult that taught people this practice that was supposed to change your life.

where a man strokes the upper left quadrant of a woman's clitoris for 13 minutes and they're in a nest of pillows and there's a stopwatch and the man is in charge of setting the timer and, grounding the woman and like pressing on her legs to be like, it's okay. Like, all right, I'm the man. I gotcha.

And there's this whole theory, this whole philosophy behind it, which they didn't really invent about the masculine and the [00:25:00] feminine as these spiritual energies and the feminine is wild and irrational and emotional. And the masculine is, steady and fierce and strong and like a rock. And it, is the same gender roles, really the same Western gender roles that we have been hearing for a long time.

Men need to tame their woman. Women can't think. Men need to provide logic. And I see this all the time in the New Age community, not in the exact same way, but as the divine masculine and divine feminine. And it actually doesn't have much to do, they, often draw from Tantra, but it doesn't actually have much to do with the original Tantric texts.

It's more about appropriating them to fit Western gender roles.

Matthew Sheffield: And it's, and it is why I think you do see you have seen a fair amount of crossover [00:26:00] between people who are into, I don't know, they'll say alternative living as so they might call it that also get into Q and not because, they kind of in some ways have some of the same concepts including the sexism.

Yeah. Like the idea of masculine energy or feminine, like it's ludicrous. Like there's no such thing as that. And if you believe that, then you don't, you haven't known enough people to know that there are plenty of women who have the characteristics that you might think are masculine or vice versa.

But yeah, and like, and that, that is why, and like this whole embracing of. Things that are, I mean, just like spices or whatever, and thinking that they're magical, like that's exactly what Alex Jones does also, like there's no there, there is, it is a, what, it's like a, it's conspiracism that is being sold to you rather than I would say, I mean, what do you think?[00:27:00]

Suzannah Weiss: It's really interesting that these new age hippies. And I know a lot of them, like, there's, you would think like they're these free spirits and there's a lot of overlap between that community and right wing politics. And yeah, Some I've heard there. Oh, there's a sex educator named erica smith She talks about how a lot of it actually seems to draw from purity culture.

Like they talk about how when you have sex with someone their energy gets on you and you have to do rituals and cleanses to get rid of that energy Which is a form of slut shaming Like stick to the facts at least like, okay, maybe they'll, maybe you'll have a negative experience. Okay. Maybe you'll get an STI, like at least stick to the facts if you're going to have that conversation and don't add this.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah, because I mean, it is functionally no different than, some of the, mosaic [00:28:00] law prescriptions about sexuality and things like that., I mean, trying to get sex advice from, ancient books when people didn't know anything about sex. Didn't even know that sperm and egg existed.

Like you're going to, that's what you're going to turn to for a sex advice. Please don't, please do not. And yeah, so, and then, you also do just to go back to the, kind of the commercial. Commercialization stuff like this.

How social movements can be both exploitative and empowering of women simultaneously

Matthew Sheffield: and maybe it's not, this is less commercialized, but there, for a few years ago, there was this, idea of free the nipple, which was which was kind of a movement to legalize women going topless in public spaces and they did have some success and you were there.

As they were moving along in some ways, you want to talk about your what you've learned from all that?

Suzannah Weiss: Yeah, I mean, I think that was generally a good thing. I think [00:29:00] for me As a college student being privy to that it was confusing and I did see that Co opted a lot like I see i've seen a few sexy like in men's magazines sexy photos of women that are like You This celebrity frees the nipple.

She frees the nipple and it's just women posing seductively like they always have. It's just like body positivity. It got co opted for commercial reasons. And I, had to do some of my own work. Cause I was triggered by free the nipple and like I shouldn't have an issue just with women wanting to be topless, but I had myself had internalized a lot of the male gaze that made me see that all as objectifying.

When if a woman like wants to go topless on a beach, like that's not necessarily objectifying. But the main point that I make throughout the chapter is that there is no way of dressing that is objectifying or [00:30:00] subjectifying or empowering or disempowering. Okay. It's really about being in your body and doing, I hate to say doing it for yourself because that's such a cliche and you're never really doing it just for yourself, but being in your body and making choices based on what brings you happiness.

And other than that, you can do whatever you want, but it's really just about owning your sexuality and being an object only if that is actually what is appealing to you.

Matthew Sheffield: So, addressing for yourself in the moment for how you feel rather than trying to layer too many other things on top of it, if you can help it, I guess, right? Yeah, well, and, so, and you did, I mean, you did talk about the, yeah, like that it was there, there was also a tension with that [00:31:00] movement because this was also the time when, there were the, these Shows, things like Girls Gone Wild and, The Man Show where they were, just blatantly, putting women's breasts on television and whatnot.

And so like, that was obviously part of your sort of, Conflict, I guess, right? We're trying to figure out how to square that in some way, or I don't know. What would you say?

Suzannah Weiss: Yeah, my initial reaction was just how is this empowering? Isn't this what we're trying to get away from? Like, can't, aren't we just fighting for women's right not to be like seen as objects and not to have our breasts front and center.

And I know that is part of the intent behind the movement is to normalize it and not have to have the breasts be sexualized. There have been some critiques of the fact that for instance, the free, the nipple merchandise was just like shirts and other items with these, perky pink nipples, like this sort of normalized [00:32:00] white, thin.

A lot of the protests that you see, it is, and there are some people who did not fit that. Like, I saw one trans person who posted photos of their nipples to, as they transitioned to show how it, how there's a double standard. I believe that I'm trying to remember who it was. I can't really remember, but there have been some participants in that movement who were not just like thin white women showing off their boobs, but a lot of it did seem to be that, and I think that's why it rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

Matthew Sheffield: Well, and then I guess on that similar subject, you also do talk about your going to clothing optional results and, having to kind of adjust what you thought about that as well. Do you want to talk about that experience as well?

Suzannah Weiss: Yeah, I actually went back to another one recently. I don't know if I should name names, but a lot of these resorts, [00:33:00] there are a few different clothing optional or top optional resorts that, are there for women to be free and express their sexuality, but they are often more about men's sexuality and more about men paying for access to boobs.

That was my latest experience. I went to I won't name names. I don't need to, but went to a resort that was top optional. And it was just so many male eyes staring at my boobs the whole time and like not even making eye contact with me and like following me around. And one dude just like looked at me and goes like, looks down at my boobs and goes, are you my favorite?

Like these environments. And I think people, and then there was another resort that was saying, we're making over this resort to appeal to women. And the way that they did that was to make. put a little drawing at the bottom of the pool of a woman's naked body and have these female silhouettes in the rooms on the [00:34:00] walls.

And it's very interesting that we continue to conflate female sexual empowerment with female sexual display. It's almost like our bodies and the sight of our bodies stand in for our own bodies. Desires and thoughts and feelings. Like people can't conceptualize women having sexual desires and thoughts and feelings still.

Yeah, I could go on, but there were a lot of experiences at those resorts that were like, and even just the aesthetics, there are often these films or these, screens with like little porn films happening. And it's always like two women giving a guy a b******b or. To women hooking up or it's never really seems to be for women.

Hugh Hefner's legacy

Matthew Sheffield: and you talk about it in the context of, Hugh Hefner and Playboy [00:35:00] as well. That cause, and, I mean, he's, as a person is people have a lot of conflicting thoughts about him because in some ways he did make it easier to, For women to have, to be, have a sexual empowerment to some degree, but that's clearly not what his business was.

as you noted.

Suzannah Weiss: I don't have mixed feelings about him. I think he was,

Matthew Sheffield: probably, I mean, he personally was no, but I'm saying like, in other words, having allowing women to not have to be, I guess by to some degree, mainstreaming nudity in some fashion, he personally, obviously was a creep and a terrible person.

I'm not gonna, I don't mean to say that. I mean, in the sense that the movement that, he became the figurehead for it was. better than him as a person, if I'm making any sense. Hopefully. Yeah,

Suzannah Weiss: I think what I'm talking about with regard [00:36:00] to what I'm seeing at clothing optional resorts and other settings is a vestige of his form of sexual empowerment.

That's all about He had this quote that was like, it's women's beauty that make the world makes the world go around. If men didn't objectify women in a positive sense, then we wouldn't have civilization. Like he says all these things that are naturalizing the objectification of women and making it seem like it is totally natural and fun for women to be objects. And if you actually look at the accounts of women who worked at the Playboy Mansion, you hear a different story that it really was not about the women. And even some feminists have said things about I remember reading an article in Refinery29 when Hugh Hefner died saying, he normalized women expressing their sexuality, which I found really interesting.

Cause again, we're [00:37:00] conflate conflating their sexuality with their sexiness as if a woman being sexy is a woman expressing her sexuality. And I think those two things are really different because a woman being sexy is For some women, if maybe they have an exhibitionist side, like maybe that is part of their sexuality, but overall it is mainly for men's sexuality to stand there and look pretty.

That's not really a representation of women's desire.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah. And, obviously, I mean, and you do talk about porn just generally in that context as well, that it's, yeah, I mean, porn generally has also started out in the same way that, I mean, Hefner himself was, that it was entirely about porn. About men's desires and, but now you are seeing the the emergence of women who are trying to make porn for women and the female gaze and, and you talk about that as [00:38:00] well.

Suzannah Weiss: Yeah, I don't love the idea of a female gaze because I don't think any one gender has a gaze. Or any gender has one gaze. Like I think it would be more beneficial to depict a variety of gazes and not label any of that male or female. But yeah, I really liked the work of certain feminist porn directors.

Like, Erica Lust, like Inka Winter at 4Play Films. There are people doing good work with regard to showing a variety of Yeah, female desires and queer desires and just things that fall outside the mainstream male gaze.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah, and it's and it I mean, it's still I guess I mean it is increasing a category that porn websites are finally realizing that oh a lot of our Viewers are female.

So maybe we should try to find things that are appealing to them in [00:39:00] one way or another. And then like, that is, it is a thing that the industry itself is trying to grapple with and also obviously trying to, grapple with, well, how do we include trans people or non binary people as well into that mix?

And it's, I don't, it's, going to be, it seems like it's a process. It's not. Not something that's said, right?

Body neutrality vs. body positivity

Matthew Sheffield: You talk about the concept of trying to having people develop body neutrality in addition to body positivity. So what, do you mean by body neutrality?

Suzannah Weiss: body neutrality is a form of body acceptance that is not focused on liking the way you look as one body neutrality advocate summer in and inputs it she's like loving your body is not about liking the way you look it's about appreciating your body as the vessel that you go through life in and appreciating it for what it feels and what it can do and if you think you're sexy that's also great but that's the [00:40:00] bonus the Most important thing is to be in your body, not looking in from the outside and have a sense of appreciation for your body that is not about your looks.

And I think that can be a way out of objectification for women to focus on their body in terms of what it can do, what it can feel, and just existing in it rather than focusing on your ability to appeal to other people's eyes. I think there is room for both, but I personally found that very liberating in a world that just focuses.

on teaching women to love themselves because of how they look.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah.

Male body positivity and societal expectations

Matthew Sheffield: And you also do talk about kind of, the flip side of all of this, which is that a lot of modern society doesn't have a concept of male body positivity either. And so, that [00:41:00] there's, I mean, and it's a contrast to a lot of the ancient world where there were all kinds of sculptures of, male bodies that, a beautiful male body.

Like that's not something that is generally speaking, put into movies too often, like if male nudity is in a movie, it's a joke. It's not something that is a positive thing. And, that has an effect on both men and women. And you talk about how that when women are watching porn, that, for them, a lot of women, they like watching gay porn.

And that's, I think that might be a bit of a revelation to, to a lot of people that a lot of women like gay porn. You want to talk about that?

Suzannah Weiss: Yes, this was. A fun chapter, it focused on the phenomenon of dick pics and reactions to it online. And I remember in like 2015, 2016, there was this outcry against dick pics, and it focused often [00:42:00] on how ugly dicks supposedly are and how women aren't visual and how no one wants to see that as opposed to focusing on the fact that men are sending dick pics without consent, which is A different conversation because what really is so aversive about dick pics is it comes from this place of entitlement of like I haven't met you I have no idea who you are what you're looking for but I want to show you my dick so I'm going to do it like that is what's problematic about it but instead it reproduced this Modern idea that men love to look at women and women don't like to look at men and women don't like to look in general and that men don't want to look at men.

There's also this homophobic undertone. And Yeah, I think that deprives a lot of people of their ability to have their desires validated. This idea, and I, there's all these pop culture [00:43:00] quotes that I brought in, like from Seinfeld, Elaine saying the female body is a work of art. The male body is like a Ferrari.

Was it? It's like for getting around, but it's not for being looked at. Jason Mraz telling Cosmo, like, When women are naked, they look like soft, gorgeous angels. And when men are naked, we look like hairy trolls and ogres. I think that just sets the bar very low for what we expect from men. if, women aren't visual and no one wants to look at men, then like that just leads men to not be considerate about.

Whether their partner might enjoy looking at them. And I think there is a huge double standard in terms of women being expected to show up to a date, hair done, makeup done, like being a great object of desire. And men being expected to do nothing. And that is not very fulfilling, like for a woman who is dating men to [00:44:00] just have this dynamic where she is catering to his eyes and her eyes do not seem to matter because supposedly she just cares about feelings and financial support.

And tough luck if you want to enjoy what you are looking at.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah, well, and it sends the message and it sends a bad message to both sexes as well, because, it's saying that men are, being healthy or being, good looking or clean, like, those are not. Valuable things for you as a man that, the only thing you should care about is, money.

And that's telling women that also, that a man's wallet is what matters more about him than, anything else. And, or his, emotional availability or whatever it is, like you, you are dehumanizing the other sex if you can't. See every aspect of them. And, and it also limits your ability to probably limit your ability to have a full relationship with someone, because if you can't, if you're only seeing them, [00:45:00] primarily through two different ways, then that's really not who they are, like they are a full person just as you are as well.

Suzannah Weiss: Yes, it probably makes men feel bad about themselves to be talked about that way. And it also probably it kind of conflates male sexuality with darkness. That was the ultimate conclusion the chapter came to was that the reason people have this disgust reaction to dick pics and to dicks in general is because of the way in which male sexuality Is often seen as predatory and not for no reason because many men are predatory with their sexuality but to we need to Redefine men's sexuality and see it as something that can be healing and uplifting and connective and not just predatory Or disgusting and I think that's the root of the issue.

I think our views of dicks reflects our views of men's [00:46:00] sexuality as inherently dark and I think that the bar should be higher and that should not, while that exists, that should not be our expectation because there is much greater potential for what men and women and everyone can be.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah, well, and especially during a time of increasing economic inequality that if men are only valuable because of their money, but then it's also much harder for men to get money or women, just generally people to get money because it's all going to the top.

Well, then you're basically, you're, you are writing off an entire economic strata of people and saying, man, you're not valuable at all. If you don't have a lot of money and like, that's really damaging to, a lot of men and especially younger men when, they're just getting started.

It's yeah. So I thought that was a important. I'm important thing to say.

The politics of pubic hair

Matthew Sheffield: Um, so, but also in this kind of in the dick pic category, you also do have a chapter about pubic hair as well. [00:47:00] So why don't you get into that? If you could, please.

Suzannah Weiss: That chapter was a struggle to write because I initially, it initially was written around the same theme of.

like oppression being packaged as empowerment. And you see this again with commercialization, with razor companies, with lasering studios, saying, Like, we're going to make shaving easy for you. We're going to make it cheaper. Like, we're going to make it, we're going to just laser it off. So you never have to shave again, freedom, as opposed to actually challenging why women are expected to be hairless in the first place.

And I also talk about how women, a lot of women say they shave for themselves or do certain beauty things for themselves. And that is an idea I'm a bit skeptical of because where the male gay is not on us, where we not in the culture we're in. Would you want to do it in the first place? Are we ever really doing anything just for ourselves?[00:48:00]

And right before I got this book deal, I spent a summer experimenting with my own pubic hair. And I realized that I actually did like to remove it, like, in part for myself. And I was like, Oh crap, this ruins my whole argument. And it doesn't really though, because there is this issue with commercialization.

That's true. There is. This expectation that women be hairless no matter what and just find, that there's this illusion of options. Like there's so many ways to remove your hair when actually you lack the option to keep it without facing social ridicule. And at the same time, there are people who enjoy.

Body hair removal and other forms of body modification. And it doesn't have to be just for yourself. If you enjoy it, like that was the ultimate conclusion I came to. Like you don't need to make every fashion or beauty [00:49:00] or styling choice be a political statement or be politically correct. If you get pleasure out of something, even if that pleasure is in being an object and being looked at, like that's okay.

Cause you know, if. One silver lining of patriarchy is that some aspects of it give you pleasure, then take that because it's not giving us great things all the time. So if you can find something good in it, take it.

Sex work as personal liberation and societal force

Matthew Sheffield: and you also do kind of have that perspective with sex work as well because, and it's in sex work is a thing that I think is it's becoming a lot more mainstream than, it has been in the modern American society for quite a while, at least not since the old west when it was pretty mainstream and.

But like, obviously, as everybody says, the, it's the, oldest profession is certainly is one of the oldest ones. And but it's, complicated in terms [00:50:00] of, how to feel about it and, whether people, whether it is empowering or disempowering and. There's more than one way to think about it, right?

Suzannah Weiss: Yeah. Like similar to what I said about dick pics, it, really depends largely on the context and it depends on, I just think we should set the bar higher for what sex work looks like and the reason why people think of sex work as oppressive. is that they don't realize there that there is a way to enjoy sex work and sex in a way that is desired and consensual and mutually respectful.

And I think that part of, I think that The more we say sex work is always exploitation, the more we encourage a world where it is because then we don't treat sex workers. Well, we don't care about their desires. We don't allow them the autonomy to do the work that [00:51:00] they want to do. And so I think it is good for everyone to acknowledge that sex work and sex in general can be play.

That's the title of the chapter sex work as play. And and I think that sex, like sex trafficking, anti sex trafficking and pro sex work actually go together because it's about valuing consent and it's about understanding nuance and the importance of enthusiasm. And I think we've like created this false dichotomy of like, sex work is bad, sex work is good when, like, actually it's about distinguishing what is consensual, what isn't, what is desired, what isn't.

And, A lot of it is about economic opportunities, and like, that's a little bit beyond the scope of the book, but I think if we lived in a truly free society, like, there would still be sex [00:52:00] workers, but people would not be doing it because, they need to just to make money, because people, sex work can be healing, it can be playful, and it can be educational.

And a lot of that is missing from the discussion.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah, well, and, a lot of that also is because it's criminalized, like, that's part of why that we can't have a full discussion about it because a lot of people are. Taking part in it in furtive ways, trying to not get arrested for it on both sides of the equation.

And you talk about your own experience, though, of just trying it out in a couple of different ways. You want to talk about that what you experienced with a sex worker.

Suzannah Weiss: Yeah, I mean, I'm not a spokesperson for sex workers. Like, I almost as an experiment did camming. And a few other things.

I was actually a stripper for a night. I did [00:53:00] sexting. And I really enjoyed it and it showed me a new vision of what work could be because in our capitalist society, we really value hard work, putting yourself under stress to achieve being impressive. And for me sex work was actually a way out of that and a way to find work that felt like play and to find work that was about nourishing and pleasing my body rather than fighting my body and forcing it to do things you know it doesn't want to do like be on my computer all day or right when I'm really tired like to just Masterbate all day and get paid for it was actually very liberating and showed me that there is a different value system We could adhere to where I was appreciated just for showing up and didn't really need to accomplish anything quote unquote Impressive at least not stereotypically that people were [00:54:00] happy to pay me just for my pleasure That was very liberating.

And even though I'm not doing that anymore, I do take that idea with me that my ultimate goal in life is to be paid for my pleasure.

Matthew Sheffield: Well, and, you talk about it also, I guess, sex work in the context of that, it is a kind of, it's a way of. having more liberation for everybody regardless of sexual orientation or, male, female, et cetera, that, and I guess you, you quote something, a quote from Augustine who Is was a catholic saint but people Don't know this quote from him enough as I think they should you want to talk about that a little bit or what he said about sex work

Suzannah Weiss: Now i'm trying to remember he said something about it being a necessary evil to just [00:55:00] quell men's uncontrollable desires that was the basic gist and that's a very objectifying narrative that Sex workers exist because men are so horny and women must do the difficult job of letting them f**k us.

Someone's got to do it or else they'll just become rapists or something, which is very disempowering. It's all about men's desire. It's not about what a sex desire, sex worker's desire might be and it plays into these stereotypes of men being out of control animals who can't control their sexuality and women needing to do a duty to men by like opening their legs and letting them use them.

It's the same. And I still see this narrative. Nowadays, that sex work is this necessary evil just to curb rape, which I think we have a bigger problem if we need sex work so that men don't rape.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah. And, and it's [00:56:00] interesting because in the context of sex work, the stereotypical views are, as you said, that, men's sexuality is, violent, dark, chaotic, but then also in the, other literature, it's, That women are those things.

That women are chaos, like Jordan Peterson, like he's obsessed with the idea that chaos and it's like, you, you should read what you're saying in one context and then see what you're saying in another, like to understand that it's fine to think, to, to assign one characteristic to either sex is just ridiculous.

And and, then, but the other thing about sex work for women who don't do it, like it is. Empowering for them as well to not have to feel pressure to have sex in some sense, right. But that, like, that's, I feel like that's not talked about as much like that for a lot of men, they are, will get into dating or harass women.

And in some way, if they have a sexual outlet, [00:57:00] it's, easier for other women, for women who don't, just want to be a regular person and live a regular life to not have to deal with dating if they don't want to. There's no pressure on them. I don't feel like that's talked about too much.

Do you think it is?

Suzannah Weiss: I haven't heard that talked about specifically the idea that having Well, actually, I have heard it. It's interesting because I also talk in the book about incels, and there was something written about how maybe sex workers can fulfill the desires of incels so that they're not, shoot shooting people or whatever.

Again, I think, yeah, the way you're talking about it is a little different that it's more just like if women just don't want to date or have sex. I yeah. When it's talked about in the context of sexual violence, I think there is a bigger issue underneath that, that like sex workers aren't going to solve because the issue is men are free.

Feeling inclined towards sexual violence in the [00:58:00] first place. But in terms of just people having different sex drives or different desires, I guess that in a way that sex work could be a solution to that.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah. Well, I mean, I know what people that has been a solution for them. If there was a sexual imbalance in their relationship that.

They, one side or the other is like, well, if you're okay with it, then I will go and, do some other stuff and as long, and sometimes that works for some people, sometimes it doesn't and, but yeah, and, like, but to your point about the incels, it is like, I think it's pro it is the case.

I mean, it is the case that when you have sex work decriminalized that and legalized that it does. You do have less sexual violence in a society. That is true. But to your point though, sex workers should not be the last line of defense against, men not having, the appropriate tools to deal with stress, to deal [00:59:00] with, um, capitalistic expectations or, negative sexuality of their own.

That was, that they learned from society to what, like we were talking about earlier, that if you don't have money. Then you're worthless. And if you, can't that you should think of sex or relationships as, like a lot of, ragming dating advice, podcasts, they say things like that all.

Relationships are prostitute, john and men should think of their wife as, their prostitute and they should be thought of as the john that you cannot be anything other than a john. Like that's, a, it is a terrible state of affairs and it's a terrible thing to tell men. And yeah, but there's.

There's not enough, there's not enough talk of, how educational dare I say, religious system should be sending more positive messages to men like that.

Suzannah Weiss: Yeah, there's a lot more people can get out of a [01:00:00] relationship than a woman giving her body so that a man can give her money. Like even for someone who wants that dynamic, I would hope that they are also.

Getting something physical out of it and like everyone each to their own. But I think in general most people wants all elements. They want, comfort, support. Sexual pleasure, like a relationship can involve a lot of things for both people or all people. And when we dichotomize it like that, then, we kind of split those benefits in half so that women get half of them and get half rather than everyone enjoying everything a relationship has to offer.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah, or I mean, even just the idea that like, I mean, society still very is very negative toward women who have casual sex and who are not, who aren't trying to have a live in relationship with a man or somebody else. Like just [01:01:00] saying that, we'll, this, there is a, much more negative or it's women who, are in a situation ship as it's now being called, or if friends with benefits type of relationship, like the women are regarded as suckers.

If they're doing that where, and, instead of being like, well, actually aren't, they getting something, like, what if you, why is it impossible for a woman? To not want to have a emotional attachment from sex, like there is. We're still in that, like, and you see it so much, I think, in a lot of popular media and social media and TikToks, like people complaining and saying it's stupid for women to even want that, right?

Suzannah Weiss: And a narrative I hear a lot nowadays is that women have made pussy too cheap, which is interesting that we're still talking about it in these economic terms. But I hear a lot of people in like the LA Spiritual community a lot of even I saw like a comment on Instagram Recently [01:02:00] that had like thousands of likes saying, women have ruined dating by making pussy too cheap They've been having casual sex and now men think they don't need to put in effort However, why, like there's this narrative that women have to train men to be civilized or to treat them like human beings.

I don't want a man, I have to train. Like if a man is saying, oh, I'm gonna, you're looking for a relationship, but I'm gonna keep just pushing for a hookup, just 'cause some other woman had casual sex with him. That's not someone I want anyway. So why are we again having this low standard for men that women have to train them to invest in a relationship and make our pussies expensive because apparently we always have to have a price tag.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah. Yeah. No. and it's like, Understand that people are in different moments in their life and it's okay for them to want different things at [01:03:00] different moments. Like there's nothing wrong with that and it's not your business. I mean, that really, I think is that message I think should be inculcated a lot more you don't like, yeah, like, I mean, cause again, like in, one of the other themes of the book is that, That women's bodies are kind of regarded as a communal possession almost in some sense that and, that you people think they're entitled to pass judgment on the way that other women, express their, I have sex or express sexuality and it's like, it's without anybody saying that to men.

And it's like, if some women want to have more sex, then that's fine. You don't have to have a comment on that. That's okay.

Suzannah Weiss: Yeah, there's, what was, well, there's been this commodification of women's bodies since agriculture, probably when women became men's [01:04:00] property and it became important to know who's which child belonged to which father.

And since then, we still have this vestige of talking about women valuing themselves more or making him work for it or a different things that still suggest that women are commodities. And yeah, even I talk about the irony of women using the insult w***e for a woman who is free with her sexuality, because often women who say that are still coming from an economic mindset of.

Well, it's more expensive to have sex with me. I need a wedding ring. Like, but that is still, then you're the w***e. If you are basing it on material items that you get in exchange for sex.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah, no, I think that's a great point. And it is probably why some women hate sex workers. Because, they feel like that, that they have cheated the system, if you will.

And it's like, [01:05:00] and they themselves implicitly are saying. Well, I see myself as a rival to you in some sense, that is what that negativity implies to me. What do you think?

Suzannah Weiss: Yeah.

Yeah. I think people in general don't like people who gain this of some and who find ways to make money find ways to, I think maybe they're jealous that a lot of sex workers, their work is play. And. they get to receive pleasure for a living. And I think people do think they've gained the system because we have this idea of no pain, no gain, and you must stress yourself out to make money.

And

Matthew Sheffield: Well, and that women are not supposed to have fun having sex. They're not supposed to enjoy it. It's cheating if women enjoy it. [01:06:00]

Suzannah Weiss: So they're doubly gaming the system.

Matthew Sheffield: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So, that, I mean, yeah, like, and, that's why, I do, I, do feel like, though, that, as society is kind of readjusting to, cause like the porn industry before Pornhub, it, was, A very different place than it is now.

Because now, the, there were all, before there were all these studios that were making massive amounts of money and very, few women or LGBT people had any sort of presence in the industry, at the top end as executives or directors. And the evolution of, free internet porn has really kind collapsed all of that.

Capitalism on itself. And now you, it is much more personal directed, individual directed, and you are seeing a lot more people, who are gay or trans being able to have, earn a living from [01:07:00] doing what they wanted to do. Which they really, that was not available to them in, many different ways.

And then, and then you're also seeing that a lot of women who had been, and, I know, several of them that, they, were making more money before, but now they have more freedom and to set their schedule, to set what they want to do, and so, but, society is still trying to readjust to all this, that, And then, you're also, and I guess we haven't even talked about the, idea of like the sugar relationship as well.

Like that's, is a thing that has always existed. Right. But now people are, more upfront about it in a lot of ways. Do you think so?

Suzannah Weiss: I think so. And I think if that is what turns someone on, then that is fine. I think that. I just hope that whatever relationship people are in, it is because they are getting something out of it and not just the money.

I mean, I [01:08:00] hope that people in those relationships are enjoying both the money and the sex. That is like, that is my only opinion on what other people should do.

Matthew Sheffield: Well, or they can have more than one and get enjoyment another way. That's possible too, right? So yeah, anyway all right. Well, is there anything else you feel like we should Have discussed here, or do you think we hit all the major points?

Suzannah Weiss: I think that we've hit the major points.

Matthew Sheffield: Okay. Well, good. I hope it's been a, you've had a, good experience. Has, it has. Ha Did you have fun? Hopefully you had fun. Susanna .

Suzannah Weiss: Yes. I enjoyed this conversation. Thank you.

Matthew Sheffield: Okay, great. All right. So for people who want to keep up with you on social media, you want to give them your website address and social media and all that stuff.

Suzannah Weiss: My website is [01:09:00] SusannaWeiss. com. S U Z A N A H W E I S S. My Twitter is Susanna Weiss. My Instagram is Weiss Susanna. And my book is Subjectified, Becoming a Sexual Subject, which you can order on Amazon.

Matthew Sheffield: All right. Sounds good. Thanks. Thanks for being here, Susanna.

Suzannah Weiss: Thank you.

Matthew Sheffield: All right, so that is the program for today. I appreciate everybody joining us for the episode. And you can always get more if you go to theoryofchange. show to get the archives, the video, audio, and transcript of all the episodes. And you can also go to flux. community to see the other content that I'm producing with my friends and colleagues as well.

So that's it for this episode. I will see you next time. [01:10:00] [01:11:00] [01:12:00]

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