Post Betrayal Transformation with Dr. Debi Silber

Welcome to the Thinking Big Podcast. Today we have such a special guest with Dr. Debi Silber and we are going to talk about Post Betrayal Transformation.

I wanted to bring Dr. Debi on the show because betrayal doesn't have to be some huge event, we have betrayal in our everyday life, at work, at home, in our social areas and it can eat at us if we don't deal with it.

Her doctoral study led to 3 discoveries around how we experience and heal from betrayal. Based on her findings, along with 28 years of health, mindset and lifestyle coaching, she's created a proven approach to help people heal (physically, mentally and emotionally) from the betrayal of a family member/partner/friend/coworker/self.

Dr. Debi Silber, is the founder of The PBT Institute, is a holistic psychologist, a health, mindset, and personal development expert. She's an award-winning speaker, coach and author of the Amazon #1 Bestselling book: The Unshakable Woman and The Unshakable Woman -The Workbook, 2 books recommended by Brian Tracy, Marshall Goldsmith and Jack Canfield,

Dr. Debi has contributed to FOX, CBS, The Dr. Oz show, TEDx (twice), The Thinking Big Podcast :) , The Huffington Post, Shape, Self, Health, Working Mother, Forbes, Psychology Today, WebMD, Ladies Home Journal, Woman's World and Glamour, amongst others.

I love it when people bring their passion into their careers, when they turn a huge life event in their life into something that can help so many other people.

Today we are going to think big physically, mentaly and emotionally.

Connect with Dr. Debi Silber at the following social media links:

Website https://thepbtinstitute.com/

Facebook https://www.facebook.com/InspireEmpowerTransform/

Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/debisilber

Twitter https://twitter.com/debisilber

Youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClpiRrwk1mPjMYEEcn42Bdg/featured

TEDx https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX30i6nC7ro

Leaders are Readers, here are some free books for you to get.

Free copy of Think and Grow Rich - http://bit.ly/free-think-and-grow-rich-ebook

The 7-day Think and Grow Rich Challenge - https://bit.ly/tagrchallenge

Free Audibles book - http://bit.ly/thinkingbigaudible

Connect with Sean Osborn at Thinking Big Coaching

Website - http://www.thinkingbigcoaching.com

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thinkingbigcoaching/

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/thinkingbigcoaching/

Until next week, remember always be thinking big

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Podcast Transcription:

Welcome to the thinking big podcast. Today, we have such a special guest with Dr. Debbie Silber, and we're going to talk about post betrayal transformation. And I wanted to bring Debbie on the show because betrayal doesn't have to be some huge event. You know, we have betrayal in our everyday life at work at home, and it can absolutely eat us up if we don't deal with it. And Debbie is the founder of the post betrayal transformation Institute. She is a holistic psychologist, a health mindset and personal development expert. Oh my god. She is an award winning speaker coach. She's the author of Amazon number one bestseller book The unshakable woman and unshakable women workbook. Both books by the way, recommended by Brian Tracy and jack Canfield. Debbie has also contributed to such things as Fox, CBS, the dr. oz show Ted x twice, and now the thinking big podcast. Anyways, I wish I could just come up with some great little saying for what she does, but jack Canfield, I must steal his because he's just much better at that than I am. Dr. Debbie Silber has the ability to blend knowledge, expertise, enthusiasm, and compassion to help people create the body lifestyle and life they crave. Oh, that's not to say I could not I could not come up with that. So today we're going to be thinking big physically, mentally, and emotionally.

1:33 Welcome to the thinking big podcast with Sean Osborne. The show helping you think bigger into your life and potential. Shaun believes by equipping you with the tools, strategies and philosophies required to be successful in all aspects of your life you can achieve anything you believe in empowering our own growth makes a deeply positive and lasting impact on our lives, community and our world.

1:56 Now, here's Shawn, it is absolutely fantastic. having you on the on the podcast, Debbie, tell us a little bit about what you're doing.

2:06 Mm hmm. Well, what I'm doing is helping people heal from betrayal. Physically, mentally, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, you know, you don't, you don't jump into something like that, of course, unless you need to. And I've been in business since 1991. It started with health and then mindset and personal development and then my own traumas. And after two horrible betrayals, it catapulted me into a PhD program in transpersonal, psychology, the psychology of transformation and human potential. While it was there, I did a study, I studied betrayal, what holds us back what helps us heal and what happens to us when the people closest to us lie, cheat and deceive. Right. And that study led to three groundbreaking discoveries and led to a whole new business, family, marriage life, all of it.

2:54 That is that is absolutely amazing that you've gone through that net, you've done that. Now you said something about, you initially went in for human potential, that's part of what you went into, to me that that is something that is so so either not overlooked, or not many people actually, as a society, we don't look, I think as much into the mind and human potential and any of this of the betrayal, anything that happens, anything that happens within the mind. Now, do you think that this stuff that is going on now. And as we get longer into this, this COVID stuff? How do you think that's going to affect what you do? Like, your, I don't wanna say your clients, but how do you think that's gonna affect society? That's going to need this type of help. Do you think it's going to increase? I think it's, mentally we're going through one of the most challenging times I think we have,

3:54 Oh, absolutely. You know, I what I'm seeing is the best and the worst in all of us. Having this time, this extra time that we normally don't have, we do a few things with it, we either numb avoid, distract as desperately as we can. Because we're so unwilling to feel or face right. Or we take that time, and we look within and and with many of us where we're shocked at what we find, but that's how transformation happens. Yeah, so it's typically one of the two you know, it's interesting, I did two TEDx is and my first one was exactly on how we do that we numb avoid, distract. We use food, drugs, alcohol, work, TV, keeping busy reckless behavior, because what used to work doesn't work anymore. What used to feel good, doesn't feel good anymore. What used to make sense doesn't make sense anymore. So we, we think we like change middle age. So we do all those things. So we don't have to look at it. But you know, we get that tap on the shoulder. And we just keep numbing and avoiding the stakes get bigger and bigger until we're forced To look

5:00 Yeah. And self sabotage I, I do that all the time. And I do it subconsciously, I don't even realize that I'm sabotaging myself. This is that little inner, a little inner voice that kicks in that we don't even when we don't even see it that that really starts sabotaging what we do. Oh, absolutely, yeah, it's like that negative negative talk, though you can't do that, or Who do you think you are? You know.

5:27 And it's so interesting because it's, it's almost, we use that as a safety mechanism. You know, because it keeps us we think safe, but it keeps us stuck. It keeps us small. Because if we were to actually combat that voice, and challenge it and take it on, we would shake up everyone around us, we check ourselves. So instead, you know, it may seem easier, just to quiet that voice as best we can. But you know, I use this example a lot. And it's, let's say there's a, let's just take a boy, and let's say he has his favorite stereotypical blue shirt. He outgrows the blue shirt, the blue shirt doesn't become bad. He's just outgrown it. And that's what happens with us. Where we're ready for something new, we're ready to play a much bigger game. And we're using those things because it's it's we're venturing into new and unfamiliar territory,

6:25 right. Yeah, that that that is a great way to look at it. That is that that is now on front. So from a betrayal standpoint, how does? How does betrayal affect this? Do you think? I mean, how does it How does it feel? What is it? Because I've gone through that, but I don't think too, near the magnitude that some people have.

6:45 Yeah, you know, the way it works is, the more you trust it, the more you depended on that person, the bigger the betrayal. So for example, a child who's completely dependent on their parent, let's say that parent is something awful, that's going to have a greater impact than let's say your coworker taking credit for your idea, right? It's still a betrayal, but not to the same level. And the, you know, what happens is the more time, the more trust, the more heart, the more sacrifice, you know, the bigger the bigger the betrayal and and one of the ones I had been through it was my family. And you know how the universe works. If you don't quite learn the lesson, you're meant to learn to get more opportunities? Well, I did. And the next one was my husband. I mean, anybody who's been through it, blindsided is the word we use, because you never see this coming. You know, this is the person that you trusted the most. So So really, we look at it, we say, if the person we trusted the most proves untrustworthy, who do we trust? If the ones we'd run to when other people are causing the harm? are the ones causing the harm? Where do we go? And it's such a shock to the body in mind. And it hits us on every level physically, mentally, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually. So different types of betrayals hit us in different ways. But I'm convinced it's one of the most painful of the human experiences,

8:08 I think, I think it is because it does it entails our beliefs entails our core of who we are.

8:18 You know, what, one of the discoveries in the study that I did, we made three discoveries, which was just and I'm happy to get into each one. But one of them was that there is this complete and total shattering of our worldview, a worldview is our mental model. That's how we view the world. This is safe, these are the rules, this is how it works. And a betrayal is enough to shatter all of those rules in an instant. So think about it. Now all of a sudden, you had your rules that were governing you, you thought you knew who was safe, who wasn't how the how the world works. And in a in one shockingly painful moment, everything you thought was real and true, is no longer. Yeah, and the entire self is destroyed. You know, originally, I was studying something called post traumatic growth, which is like the upside of trauma, how trauma leaves you with this new awareness perspective inside that you didn't have. Right, right. But I I thought about it. And I said, you know, I've been through death of a loved one. I've been through disease. I was in ICU for 11 days. And betrayal was so different. So I asked my study participants and I said, If betrayal is different, you know, if that if you've been through any other traumas, can you compare it to betrayal? And does it feel different for you? Hands down unanimously, everyone said, Oh, my gosh, it's so different. And it's because betrayal feel so intentional. We take it so personally. So the whole self has to be rebuilt, rejection, abandonment, competence, worthiness, belonging, trust, they all have to be rebuilt. So it needed its own name. It didn't quite make sense to call it post traumatic growth. So I coined a new term post betrayal transformation. Do you

9:55 think that part of it is is how we view it or how We look at it as part of the betrayal. Because Because if I'm looking out, there's some things that could happen to me. And I would say, that's just the way it is. I'm not the answer. But that same thing can happen to someone else. And the world is falling apart. So how do we is there? Is there something in that whole mechanism or that whole thing that is based on how we how we see things, how we look at the world, how we how we see those?

10:29 Absolutely. And it really is, my definition of it is, it's the breaking of a spoken or unspoken rule. You know, in every relationship has rules. I mean, think about it, we sort of had a rule that I was going to meet with you today we were going to have a conversation. And if I didn't show up on some level, I would have betrayed you. You wouldn't have been devastated. Right. But on some level, that's a breaking of that rule of breaking of that trust. So there are those micro betrayals, those death by 1000. cuts, betrayals, and then there are those huge ones that just absolutely knock us down, knock us out.

11:07 yet. So I'm also interested in in your TED Talks, I watched, watch one of them. But what was it like to get up there? See, I'm always the one I always I mean, I love what you do. And we're gonna get into that. And but I'm also like, how do they do something? How does it feel? You know, what's the when you got up on stage? The first time for TEDx? How was that? You know,

11:30 I'll tell you, I don't know which one you saw. But I did two, the one on sabotage was the first one. The second one was do you have post betrayal syndrome. But that first one was six weeks after my betrayal. I don't even know how I was able to do that. But it's so interesting, because that talk got a got a lot of views, I think, I don't know, 730 thousand or something like that. And it's interesting, because I think people felt and they sensed they sense, something's brewing there. Right transformation was underway, I wasn't quite sure what it was going to look like yet. And I wasn't ready to talk about my betrayal. You know, I remember Dr. Joe dispenza, said, I think it was something like wisdom is experienced without the pain. And I was in way too much pain. So I wasn't coming from that place of wisdom just yet. And I wasn't ready to share it. And it's interesting, because by the time I did the second one, you know, any good coach as a coach, right? And I'll never forget, we were in a zoom call with my coaching group, and everyone's talking, you know, the big everybody's in their little zoom boxes, and what's going on with you what's going on with you what's going on with you. And I was talking about this study, and I was so proud of the study in this study, the study, and my coach just stops be dead in my tracks. And he said, Stop hiding behind your ethics study already.

12:49 Oh,

12:51 it was time to go bigger, go home. And it was terrifying. I mean, it was, you know, it's a very vulnerable topic. Yes, stuff that gossip thrives on. But, uh, you know, I really made peace with it, saying that I see the transformation here with, you know, with what I was doing with clients privately. And if I can do that privately, because they see what I'm doing with what this discovery showed, and I'm implementing it and it's working. How do I keep it to myself? So all right, George was gonna come but and

13:24 Yeah, well, that and that's why I asked that. I saw that and that's when I watched but there were I saw something in there. I saw there was there was passion there was I saw something, something there. Yeah, absolutely. So can you can you kind of see sabotages like I know when it if I'm walking down the street, and I see someone that's in a bad mood, or someone that's just that just not doing over? I can tell before they even get to me that you know, their heads down their shoulders. You can tell when someone's not doing great you know, you you never see someone walk around going. I'm doing fantastic. So can you kind of from a physical side, what is it what is you know, this betrayal? To me, God, it's gonna be just so crushing. What does it do to you physically?

14:15 You know, I'll give you the typical profile of the men and women we see who walk through our doors every single day, right? Let's call her so. Before she says a word. You can feel her stress. Her anxiety, her said is her pain. It's palpable. She can't sleep. So she's taking something to help her get to sleep. She's exhausted. So she's using sugar and caffeine for energy. Because of that she's putting on weight particularly around her midsection. She's so anxious, she can't focus. So she goes to her doctor who prescribes mood stabilizers or anti anxiety meds to help her get through her day. Or she's just drinking on her own eating anything to numb avoid, distract. She's her nerves are frazzled, she's on edge. So how is she supposed to manage her day raise her kids go about her business, her world just collapsed. And not only that she's ignited the stress response. So now she's also headed for every single symptom illness condition, disease. And, you know, there is this, that was one of the other discoveries, there's this collection of symptoms, so common to betrayal, it's known as post betrayal syndrome. I mean, it, it almost leaves nothing untouched. And so imagine you're walking around in that state in the state of anger, sadness, rage, confusion, exhaustion, you know, physically all of these symptoms, and, and you're supposed to put your life back together, you know, so it's an easy way to see why someone would choose who drugs, alcohol, you know, whatever, right. But what we see is in the five stages of betrayal, which is that was the third discovery, there are five stages. That's a typical stage three, and that's where people stop, and they resign themselves to thinking, Oh, this is as good as it's gonna get, I might miss, we'll just find a way to make this work. So they're not happy with their bodies, with their health, their level of relationships with their income, you know, with their work, but they think that's as good as it's getting.

16:20 And all the time. And over time, how does that? Because I see people that I would imagine, have gone through that. I know that they're stressed, for some reason, whether it's from, you know, betrayal, or some sort of mental, you know, happening, that after years, it's, you can tell that, and do you find that the longer that people are in this betrayal, or in this area, the harder it is for them to get out?

16:52 Absolutely. Because what happens is they start receiving all of these small self benefits from staying there, think about it, they get to be right, they get someone to blame. They get a target for their anger. They don't have to do the hard work of trusting and learning to trust again, do I trust you to just your effort? Yeah, they won't trust anybody. Right, they get to justify inaction. They get sympathy from other people. I mean, these are all small self benefits, right? But they serve them. And then what happens is, the longer they stay there, now like energy attracts like energy. So now they're calling situations, circumstances, opportunities that confirm that's where they belong. So now the mind starts thinking, well, maybe I deserve it. Maybe I'm not all that. Maybe they maybe maybe maybe, right, and they're rooted.

17:36 And when your mind starts thinking, that's the way you are, that's what you're gonna get. And that's good or bad. It works both ways. But good or bad. Now, you talked about kind of the holistic side, I'm of the mindset that I don't want any drugs from, from drug companies. To me, it's, I think we have lost our way over, over centuries. I don't know if, over a long time, we've had the cures to almost everything that we have way back from plants from, from food from the things that we have. And over time, we've, we've either forgot, or we've got brainwashed to, hey, you need this pill to do this. Your stuff is all holistic stuff. And how do you see holistic stuff coming into this type of an environment kind of a clinical To me it's kind of a clinical environment where generally you would see people try to get you on uppers, downers, whatever they call them, to to try stabilizing your your mind,

18:44 is such a great question. Here's one thing, I noticed, there were three groups in the study who did not heal. Now as the researcher, I assumed you're not supposed to assume anything. As a researcher, I was new with this, you know, doing my best. And I assumed that the people who were the hardest hit would grow the least, because they had the most to overcome. I was dead wrong. That had nothing to do with it at all. It was the ones who were willing to face it, feel it heal, it blew past the ones who were medicating because they didn't deal with it. I mean, yes, it may have made it a bit easier to get through their day. But that was it. It did not contribute to the healing. Now, as far as you know, what, what we offer within our community. It is holistic based, but there's there's such a variety. I mean, even one thing we have is a three phase supplement line, just to offer some additional support for sleep, for clarity for nerves for gut health. I mean, you're one of the things that typically happens in betrayal, your gut is erect. What's so interesting about that too, is you know, when you think about it, look what your gut does, it absorbs processes and digests, right your food now isn't it difficult to absorb digest and process betrayal. Like, is there any wonder why your gut would be so jacked up during a betrayal? So everything we're approaching this with, because you can't just go for talk therapy? I mean, it's only a piece of it, there's so much more. But you know, when you when you medicate may make the day a bit easier, but that betrayal is not going anywhere. Right?

20:24 Yeah. What's what do you think? What is the the biggest, biggest difference in can they be treated the same? Like just post traumatic? You know, trauma or or betrayal trauma? Is? Is there a difference in in power? How different betray are different traumatic experiences affect what we do?

20:45 Absolutely. And that's why when I was originally setting post traumatic growth, betrayal just kind of didn't qualify. Because let's say you lose, you lose someone you love, like I lost my mom, right? You don't question the love? You don't you know, that stays intact. Betrayal has you questioning everything, even your very sanity? Right? Because it's it's the sort of thing where, let's say, you know, or even something like I had one participant who lost everything in the house fire, you know, you you mourn the loss of your home and your belongings, but it's not a rejection to the self. Right? Well, you know, the whole thing about betrayal is the impact to the self. And that's why if I had to come up with a formula, it would be, it would be post traumatic growth, right? The healing after trauma, plus rebuilding the self completely and fully equals post betrayal transformation. Because you can't fully heal unless you rebuild that trust. You know, how you relate to other people again, you know, so are we here's the thing, too, we see betrayal impacting every single area of our lives. And we've all heard Time heals all wounds, I have the proof that that's not true. We've had over 8000 people to this point, take the post betrayal syndrome quiz to see to what extent they're struggling people. And there's a question that reads Is there anything else you'd like to share? I read every single one of them. And people write things like my betrayal happened 40 years ago, I can feel the hate. My betrayal happened 30 years ago, I'm unwilling to trust again, my betrayal happened 15 years ago, I feel gutted. Now we know if you're walking around feeling that way. You're not venturing, you know, back out there to pursue other relationships. It's affecting your work, it's affecting your health. And specifically, we see it like this. With relationships, I see it in two ways. We put the big wall up, you know, oh, I'm not letting anybody close to my heart again, or the faces change. But it's the same thing. Because that profound lesson has yet to be learned. Yeah, we see, you know, or we see it in health, someone goes to the most well meaning doctors, coaches, healers, therapists to manage a stress related issue or disorder, at the root of it, is an unhealed betrayal. And we see it in business. Someone wants to be a team player, but they're terrified. The person they trusted, the most proved untrustworthy, how can they trust that boss or co worker, or they want to ask for that raise or promotion, but their confidence was shattered, right? So they don't have the confidence to ask if they're bitter, resentful instead,

23:20 that is a lot broader than I, I was thinking, I mean, it's, boy, you betrayal is everywhere. And that's the thing, it's like, when it gets to your core, when it gets to your beliefs of who you are. And something is damaged are taken away from that, believe it that is much bigger than just a post traumatic where something happens, and hey, I gotta get it, you know, I gotta get over that it's, you know, shit happens. But, you know, we've got to move on. But this is this is at the root, this is at the core of, of what we what we are. And when someone takes out one of our pillars of belief, boy, that that is a huge thing. Now something if someone's from the outside, so if we've got listeners on here that, you know, maybe they're not going through something like this right now, but how can we as humans, as you know, wives, as husbands, as you know, parents as grandparents, how can we look and see signs of betrayal or signs of somebody so we can help other bit, ourselves included, but But what are the things that we can look at to help our loved ones because I've got loved ones that I know are in a place where they've been betrayed. And, you know, it's, I can see it, if you don't take care of it, it does not go away. There's they're they're still dealing with stuff. It might be in different ways. Like they might have changed vices, but they're still going down that same path, whether one time it was you know, drugs or alcohol now it's food, but they're still and I can still see the biases being being done just differently, you know, how can we?

25:04 How can we help people that we love?

25:07 And well, you can let them know they're stuck in a classic stage three, but they're not going to know what you're talking about the five stages of betrayal, that's exactly where they are. You know, the first thing is awareness. You can't change anything you're not aware of, right? It's interesting, because someone interviewed me a couple weeks ago, and he said, Well, you know, Debbie, I really haven't been betrayed. I'm like, that's fine. Not everybody has. And we start talking about it. And he says, Oh, my gosh, because you know, it's really interesting. When I was little, my brother used to always take my toys, and he used to always break them. And I remember getting this amazing toy. And he said, Can I play with it? And I said, No. I said, No, because you're going to break and he's like, No, no, I really won't. He's fine. and takes it two seconds later, he breaks the toy. He goes, you know, I'm 36. And I'll let anybody touch my stuff. That's the only real betrayal, right? That's what I see. How are you acting? Where's that coming from? Where's it coming from? What's the fear behind it? What's the reason behind it? Because you'll know, I mean, I even even when someone is numbing, avoiding distracting, so often, an unhealed betrayal is at the root of that. So you just want to get really, really clear. And I actually have four questions that I'm happy to share to see if someone's actually doing that. Absolutely.

26:19 Absolutely. And they're gonna be in the show notes too, by the way, so But absolutely,

26:23 great. Okay, so the first one is, am I numbing, avoiding distracting? if so how? Be honest with yourself? Do you come home at the end of the day, and the first thing you do is put on the TV to desperately drown out the sound of your own thoughts? Do you go into the kitchen, open up the cabinets, because you have to stop stuff yourself to stuff that voice? Right? Second question. Here's the big one. What am I pretending not to see? Very my pretending not to see there's trouble in my relationship. My pretending not to see I hate my job. My pretending not to see that health issue that needs my attention. The third question, What's life going to look like in five to 10 years, if I keep this going? Play it out, play it all the way out. Take that health health issue out five to 10 years, what's gonna look like, take that work? issue? Five to 10 years play it out? What's that gonna look like? And the relationship issue, ignore that relationship issue? Five to 10 years? What's it gonna look like? And the last question, what could life look like if I changed now? Now, I'm not saying that's easy. But transformation happens when you tell yourself the truth.

27:33 You know, and until you until you are have complete clarity, you're for other stuff. I mean, besides this until you have clarity in whatever it is you're doing, you will not have come to a direct answer. You will not

27:49 it You're so right. And we avoid it. We wonder why isn't life working for us? You know, I'll give you an analogy. It just makes this so clear. Everybody has what most people have a messy room, you know, drawer garage in their home right? Now think about think about what you do, you do everything you can to avoid it. You just don't like it because it doesn't feel good. And when you have to go, you just go as quickly as you can grab what you need, and you leave, right. But then think about what happens. There's that one day where you're like, that's it. I'm going in, you know, and you grab your garbage bags, and you roll up your sleeves, and you and you dive in Now think about what happens. At first, it looks worse, it looks worse. Because now you have your stuff all over the place. You're like, I'll donate this, I'll toss that I'll fix this, right? And it's all over. And then you put the stuff in the car, you're going to fix and you donate and you get whatever. And now you have your pile left of things that you're going to keep. And you get your fancy little boxes and you know, containers and you put it back. Now think about what happens. Now, you stand back with pride. You feel awesome. You like look at me, right? You actually want to open your garage doors show to everybody. But that's earned. It was only because you went in and did the work. That's what happens. You cannot feel that sense of empowerment of pride of accomplishment. When you're numbing, avoiding distracting you know, I don't know about you. But when I was a kid, if someone said something that you didn't want to hear, you'd stick your fingers in your ear and be like, lalalala I don't hear you, right. When we grow up. We use food, drugs, alcohol, all that stuff. It's the adult version of that same game.

29:25 Yeah. Yeah. Now you mentioned kid now, I'm of the belief that we get pretty well programmed in our beliefs and everything. By the time were, you know, eight or nine years old. I think we're you know, pretty well programmed. What is the effect of betrayal? at a younger age before we've got all those beliefs in place, like if we're six or five or six and we get betrayed by a parent or or a family member. I'm just thinking No, you all the stuff you're saying it's like, is that even more traumatic? To someone to get their beliefs taken, betrayed at that age,

30:06 you're, you're not starting at the starting line, like everybody else. It's a harder road. Now, that's not to say you cannot catch up and blow the doors past everybody, but you'd have a bit more work to do. Right?

30:18 And I think with what's, so I'm worried about, you know, everything. We're all quarantine, we're all you know, this is all through the pandemic is. Are you seeing a lot more of this happening just because everyone is so close? I again, as I said, I think the mental side of this is going to be worse than the pandemic itself. I think the the after effects are going to be

30:44 it's Yeah, it's very challenging, because think about it. I mean, there are so many people who are quarantined with their betrayer. I mean, if that's not torture, right there, yeah. So, you know, what's that, like, and then there's, you know, there are financial issues. So as if the betrayal, you know, wasn't bad enough, now, they're dealing with that on top of it. So it's, it's confronting everyone, with their deepest, darkest demons, right. And betrayal is one of those things, that it absolutely shatters your heart, your mind. Everything has to be completely and totally rebuilt. So if you don't have the bandwidth, because you're just struggling in so many other areas, if your nerves are frayed, because like, now, you lost your job. Now your kids can't go to school. Now you're, you know, you're all over the place. It's that much harder. I mean, I have four kids. And I mean, thank goodness, they're older, but but I feel it for the parents who they're not sure if their kids are going to go back to school. I mean, like, I could never homeschool my kids, they'd be in deeper trouble with that. I haven't been able to do their math since like second grade.

31:56 Yeah, that's gonna be challenging for for many, many people. So for the listeners, what is the best way? Or, you know, what can someone do? If they if they see this in themselves? If they see it in a loved one, what is the best way for them to contact you?

32:13 Yeah, the best thing to do is is for them to take the post betrayal syndrome quiz. And I'll be honest, it's a little it's a little jarring, because what you're doing is I mean, I'm having I'm having them respond to every single symptom that they may be struggling with that they may have said, Oh, well, it's aging, you know, it's because I'm older, it's because of No, it's not because of your betrayal. And when they see the physical symptoms, the mental the emotional symptoms, and then they see how it's affecting their ability to trust, how it's affecting how they move forward, how it's affecting their relationships. I mean, then it's in plain sight. And then from that point, you know, people who say, oh, I'll do anything to heal. No, they won't. No, they won't. If I tell you how many people say, you know, I mean, ask them on a level of, you know, one to 10. How is important? You really, I don't think anybody gives me less than a 10. And a fraction of them take that step to move forward. Because it's scary. Yeah, I get it. We gotcha. But I but I get how scary it is.

33:11 Any changes is getting out of our comfort zone at all, is it but but dealing with something that we don't want to deal with is a tough thing to do.

33:21 And also, it's because there's a really good likelihood that when we heal, we're going to outgrow that person. If I tell you how many times someone says, Oh, can we just make it that we're, we're good again, I said, That's not my work here. My work is to get you to your physical, mental, emotional, Best place. And now this person has two choices. This person could say, Holy smokes, I better step up my game to meet the power of where this person is. Or they say, you know, like, you get this going on. They're like, ooh, what happened to you? It's like, Ooh, I'm not the least bit interested in you. Yeah. But my job is to get someone here. That's it. And usually what happens is, this happens, or that happens.

34:03 Yeah. And I think that holds a lot of people back that not wanting to get what they want to fix themselves, or they want to get better and physically, mentally, if they even subconsciously, think they're going to lose that other half. That's not going to grow with them. I see that in other areas Besides this, but yeah, that that is, that's the big hold up for many, many people.

34:29 It's, it's so huge, you know, when I gave this, you can see I'm big on the analogies I gave this analogy in the second TEDx. And this was about the analogy of I use the example of a house. And here's the difference between resilience and trauma and transformation. Resilience is bringing back restoring you need that for your every day. trauma and transformation is different. So let's take a house that needs a new boiler and you get a boiler that would be resilience, or let's say it needs a new roof. You get a roof that's resilient. You restoring it. Here's trauma and transformation. A tornado comes by levels your house, like a new boilers not gonna fix it, and new roofs not gonna fix it right? Neither of those things won't fix it. Now, here's the thing, you have every right to stand there at the lot where your house once stood and say, This is the most horrible thing that's ever happened. And you'd be 100%, right? And you can call your friends over and say, Look at this, isn't this the worst thing you've ever seen, and they all agree, and you don't have to do anything, but cry and kick and scream and mourn the loss of your house until your last breath. However, if you choose to rebuild your house, you don't have to, but if you choose to, there's nothing there. Why would you build the same house? Right? That's what trauma allows you to and with betrayal, rebuilding is always a choice, whether you rebuild yourself and move on. And that's what I did with my family. Rebuilding wasn't an option with them. Or if the situation lends itself if you're willing, and if you want to, you rebuild something entirely new with the person who hurt you. And that's what I what I do with my husband. You know, it's two totally different people. We married each other again, you know, not always an option. Yeah.

36:13 Yeah. It's funny, you mentioned that I actually have a friend that their house burned down. And they built the exact same deck. Down the identical house. Wow. That was like, there's not one thing you didn't like about your old house, you you built this same damn thing.

36:32 Well, but if that's what works, that's what works. But but but I'll tell you, one of the biggest reasons why people don't heal from betrayal is they're afraid of that transformation. Like after my betrayal, I was going to heal regardless having no expectation of what was going to show up. And that's when transformation can happen. It's when you're only committed to will only patch it up. And I'll tell you, the group that was that didn't heal and was also by far the most sick was the one where the betrayer had no consequences. Where they tried to turn the other cheek. They tried to look past they tried to just move forward, you tell that to your broken heart. You know, not only did that not work, it only made them sick. Yeah. But it's scary to say, Okay, now it's about me healing, and I have no idea what's gonna show up.

37:21 Yeah. No, do you do like group type coaching with people? You know,

37:27 we opened the it's called the PBT, post betrayal transformation Institute membership community, because what what I found was really what the only thing that it seems people do is they medicate, or they see a therapist that their insurance provides, you know, maybe they're good or bad at this, I you know, sometimes they're not skilled in it, and it does more harm than good. Or they're in some type of support group that just, you know, bashes the betrayer. And that doesn't help. And my study proved exactly what we need to heal. So what the membership community is, is what the study proved, you know, and along with what the 8000 people who've taken the quiz, say they want what worked for me along with, you know, my clients, and we put it into a beautiful membership community. That's been, and I know, for me,

38:22 and there's probably going to be a lot of listeners that that are saying, as well, my betrayal is just not that bad. You don't have to have something that is completely debilitating. I can't even get out of bed to go and work on this stuff. It doesn't have it. But a lot of people have that. Well, it's just not that bad yet. Oh, I'll wait until it's until you know, until I absolutely have to go get and talk with people and get things. It doesn't have to be that bad.

38:51 Well, you know, what I see there are two people who come our way. There's the person who's been blindsided, and they're in crisis. But then there's that other person who is in that classic stage three, where they've resigned themselves to thinking this is as good as it gets. But meanwhile, like I said, their weight, you know, they're not happy with their body, they don't feel good in their own skin. They're not happy with their work, their finances, any of it and it shows up in every area of life. Think about it just in business. If you're not happy with your body, or you don't have the energy, you need just those two things. And let's say you're an entrepreneur, now, how are you showing up on video? How are you promoting yourself? Yeah, right. That's directly impacting your finances. Yeah. Or if it's affecting your confidence, your confidence was shattered, how is that affecting who you network with, who you collaborate, if you don't trust? How you collaborating with anybody, so it affects everything. So it doesn't necessarily have to be that it was the most, you know, extreme trauma, where you're you're you're curled up in a fetal position. But if it's holding you back at all, check how you are in your business, in your relationships in your health. Yeah, and there's an unhealed betrayal at the root of it. That's a choice. I mean, you're looking at the person who did the study. It's proven. We know what it takes to heal.