Jon is a senior product manager at BMC with a lot of experience and active thought leadership in ITSM and DevOps. The conversation starts with a communal admission that we all had to look up ‘liminal’ when it started being used by Professor Dave Snowden (ref Cynefin). However, the concept of working at the edges and boundaries across frameworks and new ways of working is a key element in the discussion covering DevOps, ITSM, ITIL 4 (Jon contributed to 2 books) Team Topologies (the book) and the notion of working across silos in value streams. Onboarding is about ‘working from day 1’, not ‘get a laptop’. This is an excellent conversation that flows across a number of liminal areas with seamless ease… Eventually we also hit the bar.