Dave interviews someone as pessimistically optimistic as him today: Alex Stupak, chef and founder of Empellón. Dave and Alex talk about the dark arts of sandbagging (2:33), the end of "high/low" dining, and the history of food leading to today (6:28). They also discuss selling out, Alex's new social media presence, and the origin of ideas. Somehow, by the end of the podcast, these two "pessimists" end up hopeful for the future of the cooking world, even with AI imminent (1:27:49).