David Sloan Wilson interview on Group Selection, Memes, and Western Values
Dec 14, 2020
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David Sloan Wilson is an evolutionary biologist and a professor at Binghamton University, renowned for his insights into group selection and human behavior. In this conversation, he discusses the erosion of Western values and the implications of identity politics through the lens of evolutionary theory. He explores humanity's cooperative instincts versus competitive tendencies and critiques traditional economic models as unadaptive. The dialogue also touches on cultural evolution, suggesting a blend of moral and systemic approaches to foster global cooperation.
Group selection can lead to more cooperative and altruistic behaviors, potentially enhancing group survival over purely individualistic approaches.
The ongoing crisis of values in the West calls for a deeper reevaluation of democratic and freedom ideals rather than a simplistic view of loss.
Identity politics risks fostering division by prioritizing narrow social identities over a broader, more inclusive human experience, hindering cooperation.
A whole Earth ethic is necessary to align personal and collective goals, promoting global cooperation and addressing contemporary socio-economic challenges.
Deep dives
The Role of Shopify in E-Commerce
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Group Selection vs Individual Selection
The distinction between group selection and individual selection is outlined as central to understanding evolutionary theory. Individual selection has been the dominant paradigm, focusing on survival advantages at the single organism level. However, group selection, as popularized by David Sloan Wilson, introduces the notion that groups with cooperative and altruistic members can outperform more selfish groups. This multi-level selection theory posits that behaviors beneficial to the group can thrive, providing insights into the dynamics of social structures.
Crisis of Values in the West
The discussion addresses the perceived crisis of values within Western societies, questioning the very definition and representation of these values. While some values appear to be threatened, the situation is more complex than merely stating a loss of values; it encompasses a broader reevaluation of democratic, enlightenment, and freedom values. This crisis raises concerns about the effectiveness of Western systems as exemplars for others, highlighting critical societal reflections that are necessary for progress. Such discussions prompt exploration of potential solutions rooted in an understanding of socio-economic dynamics.
The Need for Multilevel Governance
The increasing complexity of modern problems necessitates a call for new forms of governance, transcending traditional capitalism and socialism. Evolutionary theory may guide the development of governance structures that accommodate multi-level interaction, addressing global challenges. There is criticism towards existing systems, which are often perceived as failing to serve all societal segments effectively. This indicates a pressing need for innovative frameworks that can adapt to contemporary realities, allowing both national and global interests to find balance.
Understanding Identity Politics
Identity politics is scrutinized for its capacity to create conflict by emphasizing narrow social identities over broader human experiences. The concept posits that when an individual's identity takes precedence, it can lead to an oppositional us-versus-them mentality, undermining cooperation. The effectiveness of identity politics is questioned, especially in its potential to stall progress by fostering division rather than unity. A broader, global identity is promoted as a solution, enabling inclusive dialogue and fostering greater cohesion amongst various identity groups.
The Intersection of Biology and Culture
The conversation emphasizes the deep connection between biological evolution and cultural evolution, asserting that many human traits stem from cultural rather than genetic processes. This ultimately challenges conventional views, suggesting that human behaviour and societal norms have evolved through learned experiences and environmental adaptations. The concept of human cultures evolving in parallel with biological features highlights how adaptability signifies more than mere survival; it encompasses a sophisticated interplay between genetics and culture. Recognizing these connections urges a reevaluation of how we understand human nature and societal development.
Existential Security and Social Cohesion
Existential security is posited as a pivotal factor in determining the cohesiveness and functionality of societies. In environments lacking stability, communities become more nationalistic and prone to tight cultural norms, fostering an insular mindset. This relationship shows that societies under stress may revert to divisive social constructs and tribalism. Thus, ensuring security and stability in society is crucial for fostering an environment of acceptance and open-mindedness, allowing diverse identities to coexist harmoniously.
The Future of Global Ethics
The discussion suggests a need for a whole Earth ethic, a planetary mindset aimed at transcending smaller identities and fostering cooperation on a global scale. This approach advocates for aligning individual and group interests with broader global goals, necessitating a cultural shift towards inclusivity. Past models of governance must evolve to meet contemporary challenges, focusing on collective well-being rather than individual gain. Establishing such an ethic requires political, social, and economic frameworks that encourage cooperation and shared responsibility across all societal levels.
David Sloan Wilson is an American evolutionary biologist and a Distinguished Professor of Biological Sciences and Anthropology at Binghamton University. https://twitter.com/David_S_Wilson
Curt Jaimungal is directing / writing an imminent documentary Better Left Unsaid http://betterleftunsaidfilm.com on the topic of "when does the left go too far?" Visit that site if you'd like to contribute to getting the film distributed (early-2021).
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00:00:00 Introduction 00:01:54 Is "the West" losing its values? What are those values? 00:05:24 Multi-level selection vs. Group Selection 00:11:10 The political right vs left in terms of level of evolutionary selection 00:12:51 Identity Politics framed in terms of group selection (plus a definition of Identity Politics) 00:15:04 Why can't a propitious argument made FOR Identity Politics? 00:20:05 How can we adopt a "whole Earth ethic" as a country, when others don't adopt it? 00:23:47 What do humans need to behave "selflessly" when animals get along with doing so? 00:28:16 Link between evolutionary theory and Buddhism 00:30:00 Humans are built to cooperate in small groups (not large) 00:32:49 We've selected ourselves for timidity 00:38:03 A synoptic view of "This View of Life" and the need for encompassing values 00:38:32 Classical economics (and some contemporary) is wrong and unadaptive 00:40:44 If we've been selected for altruism, why is it difficult? 00:44:54 Carl Jung and selfish acts being unselfish (because they harm you in the long-run) 00:50:24 A $1000 suit isn't to look good, but to look BETTER than the guy with a $500 suit 00:53:00 How good is altruism as a motivational agent for behavior? 00:55:54 Tribalism is the answer, not the problem 00:57:05 Problems with Social Constructionism 00:59:18 Postmodernism and David Sloan Wilson's issues with it 01:03:28 Women's studies / LGBTQ studies / etc. utilizing "tribal circuitry" 01:06:53 The "Ultimatum Game" in evolutionary psychology 01:09:55 On this "tribal circuitry" again 01:17:40 On the Nordic countries and the "homogeneity" argument 01:23:58 Is communism more adaptive than capitalism? 01:28:31 "Tight and loose" compared to totalitarian systems (existential security) 01:31:38 Which memes are prius to liberalism? 01:36:28 Are the Inuit less adapted than the White Europeans who invented centralized heating? 01:42:37 Is virtue as "honesty / forthrightness / generosity" a human universal given most studies are done on Westerners? 01:45:10 Is David Sloan Wilson a moral relativist? 01:47:38 The effects of arcane disciplines in Universities spreading outward to the culture 01:49:47 Evolutionary theory as a unifying language for the disparate fields of science 01:54:05 "When does the left go too far?" 01:56:18 Memes that last so long they affect our evolution 01:57:26 Dawkin's concept of "gene" was problematic, and thus so is "meme" 02:00:06 Jordan Peterson vs Susan Blackmore on memes and Jung 02:02:10 Chomskyan grammar and Pinker's language instinct is wrong 02:04:06 On Victor Huang's "innovation oasis"
