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Transcript:
Agile F M radio for the agile community.
[00:00:05] Joe Krebs: Thank you for tuning in to another episode here of Agile.FM. Today I have Tilo Schwarz with me, and we will be exploring in the Agile Kata series, which we are in, and Tilo is joining. We're going to explore the topic of Coaching, Kata coaching, to be more specific, before we get started, everybody should know that Tilo is the author of two books, the Toyota Kata Memory Jogger, released in 2018 and recently is in summer 2023, giving wings to her team that was in 2023.
And that is a novel about coaching and Kata, welcome to the show, Tilo.
[00:00:49] Tilo Schwarz: Joe, it's a pleasure to be here with you again. Awesome.
[00:00:52] Joe Krebs: Awesome. Yeah. We want to talk and emphasize and focus a little bit on, on coaching and Kata in this episode, the other elements of the Kata series here on my podcast, they go into different kinds of corners, but for everybody listening today is all about coaching.
All about Kata and coaching. So my first question is really there are two Kata. If somebody is reading about Toyota Kata, that's the improvement and coaching Kata. Can you do improvement without a coach and without a coaching kata?
[00:01:25] Tilo Schwarz: Good question, Joe. Sure you can. I mean, many of us probably do, like at least once in a while, I mean, you know, something annoys you like your cable on your desk when you're moving the mouse.
And so we push the cable out of the way fix it with some sticky tape to hold in place. And of course, also you could hire an expert, you know, like consultant coming in to implement some improvements for you for both. You don't need a coach. You know? I mean, the issue here of course is that these kind of improvements starting with bumping into some waste.
And not necessarily return relevant improvement, right? I mean, for the investment, we're making time, ingenuity, budget, and so on. So basically that's why maybe waste walks, 5S audits, postmortems, that kind of thing might not be such a good starting point for improvement because the improvement just tends to be for improvement's sake, you know, where we bring up some ideas, they turn into long task lists and then array of projects.
And at the end it might be very arbitrary and effects are random, right? So in a way you could say, back to your question, I mean, before coaching improvement should start with setting goals, right? So where are we what is it we want to achieve?
Yeah but the cutter, they are separated from each other, right?
So we can do improvement without the coaching cutter and that would be something a lot of people experience, let's say at the beginning of a year when they have their New Year's resolution. So I'm just going to work on this by myself. The track record is very known. for that. So why do we need coaching to get improvement?
So building on that now, so imagining that we have set, you know, what do you say your new year's resolutions or in a business context striving for a challenging goal. Now at some point. And we'll enter the unknown zone. So I mean, that's the point where we've kind of, you know, all the quick wins, all the low hanging fruits done.
Yeah. But we've done everything we had in mind the kind of the ideas we had up our sleeve but actually our desired condition is still way out. Time's ticking. So we're kind of running low on chips, as they say in poker. So not only will this happen inevitably over time in a business context, I even think we should look for that.
So we should make sure we run out of solutions. Because you know, competitiveness comes from solving things that others haven't solved yet or solving them in a completely different way. Right. So now while you might still wonder, why do we need coaching? Now reaching that threshold of knowledge is kind of create stress.
Okay. So we're out of solutions. We're out of chips. And that's when our biases kick in. So first and foremost if you're, I guess you're familiar with thinking fast and slow we start making assumptions based on our experience. So we reach for what has worked in the past, and it's quite likely that we ignore that circumstances might have changed or we conclude.
It's impossible, right? So now besides these biases there's also some in a business context, there's often some group dynamics at play. So when we run out of solutions and you can imagine your team starting to discuss if the group has similar experiences, made similar experiences something like groupthink might kick in and we're even more convinced that this is the way to go.
Or if, you know, everybody has different opinions this might get a heated discussion and then in the end, you know, it's all about opinion. We're actually not discussing facts anymore. And then the most senior person or whoever's most convincing wins. So that is kind of. is at stake? What's happening?
We will run out of solutions and then biases, noise, group dynamics will kick in. Hope is not lost. Changing that is not as difficult as we might think because there's actually a powerful countermeasure available and that is practice of scientific thinking skills. So scientific thinking is a meta skill.
And it helps us counter these effects. And that is actually the purpose of Toyota Kata, develop the meta skill of scientific thinking as a group and ultimately make it part of our culture. So the way we do things on a side note, that's actually the second meaning of the suffix Kata, a way of doing things now.
So when we talk about all this, I think it's becoming clear, this is about habit change. This is about changing thinking patterns. Now our brain has this natural tendency to follow existing paths. So a new path. So whenever you try something new, we'll, by default. Be uncomfortable or make you feel uncomfortable.
And it also will suck a lot of energy. And that is why we need a coach. So basically we need a coach to help us stay on track until this new neural pathway is strong enough and becomes a habit. And I mean, then you could say but then coaching ends. It doesn't end because in sports. a pro always has a coach, right?
So to take the game to the next level. And that is why having managers as a coach is so important. Because a habit needs a trigger and you want to take it to the next level. So basically this is all about develop scientific thinking skills. Make them a habit and then trigger them, trigger their use on a daily basis on all levels.
[00:07:26] Joe Krebs: Tilo, this is it sounds interesting. You just mentioned in the intro you were talking a little bit about experts in this. What you just described, it might sound for somebody out there like a severe undertaking, right? Why don't just hire an expert for that improvement we need?
[00:07:43] Tilo Schwarz: Sure. I mean, that certainly could be an option in, in, in some situations.
Now what I like to kind of remind myself of is hiring an expert is outsourcing, right? So we're outsourcing the knowledge work. And then besides that, an expert. I mean, we're all experts on a certain topic. You are, I am an expert is an expert because of the experience the expert has made with solving similar problems.
So now If there's more and more new problems to be solved in the world there will be less and less experts, right? Or in other words in, in a changing world, volatile conditions, learning, speed of learning beats having experience and knowledge. And that's why we talk about the learning organization a lot.
Now, a learning organization has the ability to evolve the business, to improve the products, develop new products, improve the processes, and do that over and over. So developing that kind of organization, a system, an organism, you could say, that evolves itself, if that is our goal, then, I mean, we cannot hire experts from the outside, right?
So we have to develop this ability within the organization. And I think that is, that's very crucial.
[00:09:10] Joe Krebs: So we already touched on that there are two Kata, the improvement and the coaching Kata. Early on we talked a little bit about the improvement Kata, but what makes the coaching Kata approach so special or so different in this context, if we're just isolating and focusing on
that.
[00:09:27] Tilo Schwarz: Yeah. So for me, it's the dual purpose. So there's different coaching approaches. And the idea of coaching in a business context is of course not completely new. So just to be clear here this is not about you know, being right or wrong or, you know, coaching is the only approach and no, this is not the point.
Coaching is situational. And it's all about what is your purpose for using a coaching approach in this situation that is at hand. So it's about what is it we want to achieve? Now the first purpose of coaching, and I think that is true for any kind of coaching approach is helping an individual or a team to reach a specific goal or solve a problem.
So I mean, if you think of business coaching, personal coaching, sports coaching even marriage counseling, right? It's always about reach a goal, solve a problem. So of course this purpose the coaching kata has that purpose too help the person you coach achieve a goal, remove an obstacle.
Now, in addition, and that's that dual purpose thing. In addition, the coaching kata has a second purpose. And that is what, in my opinion, makes it very unique. Because the second purpose is that while we work towards reaching a specific goal. In addition, we want to become better or make the person that we coach better at a meta skill.
So becoming better at scientific thinking. So to make that maybe I'll try an example. So maybe it's best compared to a sports coach where you say, so the sports coach is coaching a to win this specific game. And at the same time, learn how to play the game even better. So that is what for me makes the coaching kind of special.
This dual purpose..
[00:11:30] Joe Krebs: This is awesome. We just touched a little bit on the coach itself, on the role of the coach. And the and the coaching Kata and the improvement Kata, but let's go back to that coach for a second, that individual what are the skills and characteristics you will be looking at by looking at what what's that coach in terms of characteristics and skills, responsibilities.
[00:11:50] Tilo Schwarz: I'm a bit hesitant with the question here, you know, because this sounds like a checklist. It's kind of, you know, what criteria do I need to fulfill to be a coach? And I sometimes feel at least around coaching Kata, we've, we think too much of the coach being a job or a title. Connected with a certificate maybe?
So a sports coach, that's a distinct job, okay? Or a personal coach, that's a job too. A systemic coach, that's the title. You have to earn it and then you get a certificate. That's why there maybe is a list of skills and you need to learn them. And then if you match them, you get the certificate, right?
Now, as far as the coaching Kata of is concerned the coach is maybe more a momentary role, a role you take in a conversation, like, you know, when we talk about my project, you're coaching me. So you're the coach. When we're talking about your project. I might be coaching you, so then I'm the coach, right?
So now let's take that in a business context where we're talking about managers should be coaching, managers as coaches. Rather than making this list of criteria, I prefer to talk about why should we be coaching? And then if we say like, okay so this is why then, Hey, how can we learn this?
Yeah. And I don't know if we have time but just digging into that a little bit. So why should we be coaching? I think first adding an increasing amount of coaching to our daily management work might be the only option, viable option forward. I mean, given the unpredictability we have.
Right. Because telling people what to do basically requires to have the answer, which is probably more and more unlikely to happen even inhumane to expect that from managers. You always have to have the answer. Then again, only setting targets defining projects and then say, okay, get out.
I'll get out of the way. You figure it out. Might not work either. Because our team doesn't have the answer, or at least it raises the question if this is kind of manager's task, set the target, then get out of the way, what do we need managers for in the future? I mean, JetGPT can probably produce a, you know, scan our strategic target list analyze the running projects for impediments, and then create a list.
That's what to work on today. So basically in a way you could say why do we need more coaching? Because I believe we'll be more and more operating in that area where neither we as the manager nor our team has the answer. And then we need to start coaching. How can we help our team to find the answer?
Another reason, I mean, we're talking about people development. And and that's kind of a second aspect. So helping people to reach their potential, I think that is one of our main tasks in a leadership role. And I mean, I see it this way, very personally. I mean, when I watch this over, everything is said, everything's done, you look back on your life, you don't want to end up, you know, kind of thinking of people you've been working with, you've worked with, you've lived with and go like.
Oh, they didn't reach their full potential because of me. And not just because I didn't help them because maybe I even was in their way. You don't want that. Right. If we, the need for coaching, I think is growing and I think it's also that what makes the role of good leadership. So if we want to learn this and that maybe gets closer to your question of a skill list.
I'll go high level here. So number one, I think coaching, learning to coach starts with a posture, the underlying mindset we have. And basically it's like this. It's not about you. It's about the people developing the people you're responsible for. It's not about you putting in your ideas and solutions.
And then. And if that is you then you can start your learning journey. And I think that's the second aspect, understanding that becoming a better coach is a learning journey because coaching is a skill. There's no hack. It's not like you can read a book, you can sit in the classroom and that's knowledge.
That's not skill. And that is really what I love about the coaching kata. Right from the start, I realized, Hey the coaching kata provides a set of questions. I can get started with, and it's not 100 questions. It's a set of questions. It's structured in five phases. And I felt like back when I was a plant manager yeah, I stand a chance.
I can do that. I can do that even in the whirlwind of my daily management. Yeah. Okay. Start with the posture is not about you and coaching is a learning journey. Right. And I think that, that's a good starting
point.
[00:17:08] Joe Krebs: Very good starting point and thanks for clarifying a little bit.
It's not so much of a list or something like that, or of skills. It's more like a. The thing, and as you said, in sports, sometimes ex athletes who are trying to become coaches are not good coaches. It turns out that they're departing from that profession. So it is a skill that needs to be added on.
So just being a good athlete, it's just a good piece, but it's just not the full person. So you just mentioned a little bit, the questions you would be asking there is a coaching cycle where the coach and the coachee is going to meet. And there are some questions that are being asked.
What's the purpose of these coaching questions in an, in a coaching cycle like this?
[00:17:53] Tilo Schwarz: As I said first the questions of the coaching kata provide a starting point for practicing, for getting our practice started. And then over time, of course, it's not about, you know, talking like a robot forever.
So over time, as our coaching skills develop our brain will turn these questions into question phases. Like a five phase coaching model. And then using this five phase model intuitively like a scaffold is what enables us to coach in actually nearly any kind of situation, like in a one on one, in a meeting, and even when there's just pressure, yeah.
And once we have this underlying model as a scaffold in our mind for, You know, running our conversations, running our meetings, it really releases this pressure of having to have all the answers. And at the same time, it's not just saying, okay, you do it. It's, it also provides a way, you know, we can have our team to move forward.
So when that is when kind of the coaching kind of questions show their second purpose, because you asked about purpose or what do they do they become you could say like a measurement instrument. So here's what I mean. So I don't know, Joe have you ever done downhill skiing? Are you a skier?
I'm not sure.
A
[00:19:12] Joe Krebs: little bit downhill. A little bit. Okay. Okay.
[00:19:14] Tilo Schwarz: That's good. Okay. So let's quickly run this mental experiment, or not experiment, just this, you can imagine so you can ski and now you want to up your game. So for the weekend, you take a ski instructor. Now, when you meet and after saying, hi what is.
What's the first thing this ski instructor is going to, what she's going to do?
[00:19:37] Joe Krebs: Probably assessing my,
State.
[00:19:38] Tilo Schwarz: Current condition. Yes, exactly. And so basically developing skills starts with assessing current condition. So how does she do that? She tells you, Hey, Joe, go down this part of the slope, right?
And then, exactly. So she wants to see you, she wants to see you ski, yeah. And that helps her to understand. where you're at. And then she can take it from there. Okay. So developing skills starts with understanding current condition. Where's the person at? And that is what the questions do.
Okay. So when you ask the question, the coaching Kata question, one of them, they are like a measurement instrument. So it's not so much about the question. It's about listening to the answer. And then this answer will give you a glimpse in how the other person is thinking. So I'll make an example. So imagine you ask a question from phase three, like, which one obstacle or impediment are you addressing now?
And then your counterpart says we have to update the software on the controller. So you probably right away hear, this is not an obstacle, it's a countermeasure. Update software on controller. So mentally you realize your counterpart is already moving towards taking action. Now depending on the situation, that might be okay.
But imagine maybe the past three days, we've been throwing all kinds of things, you know, action at some arbitrary attempts to get this solved. Then maybe you don't want to move with that and say wait. So a good follow up question might be, so what obstacle or impediment are you addressing by updating the software?
So in a way, this coaching kata question you started with, which one helps you addressing, and then listening to the answer helps you understand where the person's at. That's like the ski coach saying, Hey, Joe, go down the slope here. Yeah. Right. So basically the, back to your question, coaching kata questions at the beginning, they provide a starting point.
Then they turn into this five phase model, a scaffold, and the questions themselves become your measurement instrument.
[00:21:53] Joe Krebs: Right. Cool. So when I got exposed to Kata and several years ago one thing that really, you know, brought me, I guess something extremely powerful was the concept of a second coach. And this is really a cool concept because there is not only one coach, there is a possibly a second coach that is part of that, that coaching cycle.
What's the power of that? You want to explore this a little
bit together.
[00:22:19] Tilo Schwarz: Yeah, so let's talk about why is it helpful to have a second coach? We said coaching is a skill and develops through practice. In the longer run, we want to add coaching to our leadership portfolio. And.
You know, this is not a knowledge problem. I mean, managers, no, I can tell you from my own experience as a manager we know we should be coaching. We've read books. We've had some two day coaching training or whatever, a course. Yeah. We know the issue is any given day, somebody steps into your office and says, we have a problem.
And you have like 21, 22, 23. to make a decision, right? Do you tell? Do you delegate? Do you coach? Okay. So that's the issue. It's like in the moment, in the heat. Yeah. Pull the coaching card. And skill development of course is best done with a coach, right? Because we can't observe ourselves. And that is where this power of this having a second coach comes in, helping me.
If coaching is a learning journey, helping me to move forward on this learning journey.
[00:23:36] Joe Krebs: Yeah, this is really cool. As we said in the beginning, you are the author of Giving Wings to Her Team, a novel you wrote together with Dr. Jeffrey Liker. And There is a character called Denise in your book and I just want to bring listeners to the book.
Obviously, there's an awareness that there is a book, it's a novel, and there's some form of Kata, obviously, and coaching involved. Can you name one struggle from Denise, which is one of the characters in the book that is very common when somebody is starting with
[00:24:08] Tilo Schwarz: Sure. Sure. Just a bit of context here for your listeners.
So Denise is the main character. She's a young manager, has taken her first managerial role has a background as a consultant and because yeah she just wants to lead her team in a, you know, timely manner a modern way of working together. So she has this aspiration of coaching her team and she runs some experiments.
And because of her background as a consultant and having some coaching training, she said, okay, I can do this. Okay. So I'll just read a part from the book if that's okay. So Wednesday, February 2nd, 6. 35 PM. What a long day at work. Denise parked her
car at the fitness studio, grabbed her duffel bag and made her way to the changing room. She had met with Joan Mark, her team leaders, twice today to discuss the target conditions they were working on this week. It seemed that after an initial burst of energy early in the week, Denise had tried to coach them using approaches she had learned during a training program at the consultancy she worked for.
What are you trying to achieve? Getting that damn quality issue solved, Joe had said in frustration at one point. What options do you have? Was another question Denise had lobbed at him. At first, Joe and Mark had come up with suggestions. Denise had encouraged them to try them out right away.
Unfortunately, they did not work. They were further disillusioned. What other options can you think of? was the question Denise had tried next. Mark had just stared at her. Nothing, he said. I've tried everything. It's just impossible. Oh no, back to where we started, Denise had thought. She had tried to encourage them and also awaken their ambitions by asking, So how would it feel to be successful?
How would it feel? Mark had replied. I'd say relieved, because then we could stop these stupid interviews. Then she had tried yet another approach. What is the real challenge here for you? The real challenge is that I don't know how to solve the quality issue. Joe had snapped back at her. So what options do you see?
Denise had asked him. I don't know, Joe had said. I've tried everything. It just doesn't work. Okay, what else could we do? I don't know, Joe had replied, even more annoyed than before. These interrogations you call coaching are driving me crazy. Please just tell me what you want me to do. Denise had been just as frustrated as Joe.
This had been exactly where she didn't want to go, but she knew she was running out of alternatives and had started making suggestions. Joe and Mark quickly shot each idea down. That doesn't work. We tried that. That doesn't work either. I need to talk to Maggie, desperately, Denise thought as she grabbed her towel and left the changing room.
She entered the gym hall, walked over to the stationary bicycles, looking around for Maggie, but Denise couldn't see her anywhere. She started her workout. So Maggie is her second coach. That's the person she's looking for. And yeah, this is not a few, this is another Joe, by the way, Joe, just for clarity.
[00:27:58] Joe Krebs: I know why you picked this example.
[00:27:59] Tilo Schwarz: So let's kind of, Think about that passage for a second. So what we see happening here is a very common struggle for coaches or when we try to coach. Happened to me too, yeah. Basically checking in and asking a few questions is not coaching, right?
Because this is unlikely to help the other person when they're stuck. So we're having a situation here where the team is stuck. And then a second struggle is because then when Denise realized we're getting nowhere, she started to enter in her ideas. So that's kind of a second thing that is a big issue when coaching.
So sometimes people ask me what do you mean I should stay away from my own ideas? But then, I mean, how can I coach if I don't have knowledge and understanding about the topic? I often say, if you don't have a deep knowledge about the process or topic you're coaching on that might actually be helpful because if you have you're probably going to be sucked in by your own ideas.
And at some point you're going to start to, yeah. What do you think about this? Have you thought about this? Yeah. This is not coaching. I mean, this is consulting, counseling, sparing solving problems together. So then people ask, so how can I coach them without? You know, without, if I don't have knowledge, how can I coach?
Basically we can by coaching on the how, on the meta level of how people approach things and help them do it in a scientific way. And that's kind of this, the secret power of the coaching kata, you could say. So it helps the coach to move to this meta level. And then instead of, you know, talking about the topic, coach people on how they work towards the target, help them to do it in a scientific way and not challenge what they do to reach their target and compare it with our own ideas.
So these are two common struggles if you ask that. So it's like, Hey, coaching isn't just asking any kind of questions. And if you start entering your own ideas. It's like, Hey, how can I coach my team? So they come up with the idea I had in mind, right? This is not coaching.
[00:30:16] Joe Krebs: Okay. Yes. I think that's
an important differentiation on what is coaching or not thanks for that.
Tilo, now somebody might be listening to this and this sounds all very interesting. I would like to try this but my organization does not have a culture of scientific thinking nor does it have coaching culture. How do they get started? And most importantly, let's just say, like, it's a slightly bigger or large organization.
How do they scale that across an organization, that kind of thinking combined with coaching if they don't have that experience and that expertise, how do they get started?
[00:30:52] Tilo Schwarz: So first let's look at the arrival point. What is it we need to achieve? So finally, or ultimately two things have to come together. And that is good coaching skill on all levels of the organization combined with working on important goals. I mean, we're coaching for developing people so they can reach challenging goals, which means having managers with good coaching skills on all levels of the organization is the bottleneck.
That's the big hairy thing to be addressed. So how can we get started towards that? So step one, start small. This is not like you don't start with a program two day training for all managers hand out the question card. Please don't do this. So it's start with building a first group of good coaches because this gives you.
gives you, you know, a, like, like a crystal, you know, a crystal starts with a seed. So this is about building the seed. It also is provides you with a proof of concept. So start small, build a first group of good coaches. Now, how do you do that? These coaches need to get an intuitive feeling of a scientific way of working.
I mean, rationally, this is totally clear. But in the moment when you hear the answer, just like the ski coach, when you go down the hill, now your ski instructor needs to have a picture in mind. And if you do a left turn, she will compare what she sees you doing with the picture. If she hadn't had that picture she couldn't be your ski instructor, right?
So this is what I call a coach's reference. So before we can coach, we need to build this reference or this kind of goes together. No reference, no coaching because you can ask the questions, but any answer goes, right? What's a good answer? What's a bad answer? So these coaches need to build this intuitive feeling of a scientific way of working.
Otherwise they won't be able to coach for scientific thinking in their teams. Otherwise, they would be asking the questions, but would not focus on the meta level. They will probably use their content, their technical knowledge, and try to coach people towards what they have in mind. So you could say wannabe coaches should have a coach first.
So how do you do it? Find a good coach. And what I mean here is not just any kind of coach, but someone that has particular experience in practicing coaching kata. Right. At the beginning, this person is likely coming from the outside and that's okay. And it just kept, I mean, by the way, this is a huge upside of Toyota Kata because over the last 10 plus years really a global base of practitioners has developed like grassroots.
Yeah. There's likely going to be somebody in your region, so find someone in your region who can help you get started. Then of course, also the Kata Coaching Dojo is an accelerator for learning to coach. You, it's, you could think of it like a flight simulator, what a flight simulator does for pilots the Kata Coaching Dojo does for coaches.
So offering frequent coaching practice in a safe space. And then once you got that first, the seed, this first group of internal coaches. Start growing the crystal, yeah. So link coaching, so develop more coaches step by step, because now you have these coaches and they can coach the next, you know, group and exactly.
And then at that point, it's very important to think about this second aspect. So that is link coaching to working on strategic goals. So coaching people as part of their daily work, working towards relevant, meaningful goals. And once you're at that stage basically there's another good book actually at that stage, it's called Toyota Kata Culture that describes that kind of, you know, from the seed to the crystal, how do you do it?
And, Combining good coaching with working towards strategic targets on all levels, that is when the power unfolds exponentially. Okay. So now the rocket is off the launching pad. Yeah. Because really what we see happen is people can outperform the expected through practicing scientific thinking.
and with the help of a coach. And I firmly believe, and that is why Jeff and I wrote this book. It's like this book describes this journey for the individual, the coach, as well as for the organization. So from the starting point to the seed, to growing the crystal and combining it with working on strategic goals.
You know, and we firmly believe you and the listeners, yeah your team can do it too. They need you as a coach and the coaching cata can help you become that kind of coach, the coach you always wanted to be and the coach your team needs you to be. Right. And that is why our book has this title, Giving Wings, yeah?
So just like Denise is giving wings to her team, you can give wings to your team.
[00:36:09] Joe Krebs: And Tilo, I could not even think of better words to end this podcast episode here with you. Giving wings to our teams. Thank you for coming on, talking about coaching, Kata coaching in particular with the with the listeners here in the Agile Kata series on Agile FM.
Thank you so much.
[00:36:28] Tilo Schwarz: Joe, thank you. It's been a pleasure.