In this engaging episode, we delve into the complexities of human sexuality, challenging traditional views and misconceptions influenced by political events from the 1980s. We discuss Aela's recent research that suggests sexual orientation is overly focused on gender due to historical biases and male-dominated research. The conversation shifts to BDSM and how dominance and submission dynamics play a significant role in female sexuality. We address the rise of the 'sex wars' and compare them to previous 'woke wars', exploring societal reactions to BDSM avidity. Additionally, we examine the evolutionary and genetic roots of sexual preferences, the importance of understanding sexual profiles within relationships, and the impact of misclassifying these preferences. This episode is an invitation to contemplate the deep-seated nature of sexual orientation and the potentially harmful consequences of ignoring these discussions.

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. Today we are going to be talking about a very, very fun topic, which is does human sexuality act actually work the way we think it does? ALA did a piece on this recently where she was digging through the research and she came to a conclusion very similar to our own, which is the only reason we see sexual orientation, IE preference for specific genders as the predominant aspect of human sexuality is because of weird political stuff that happened in the eighties.

And if you actually look at the data, that is a fairly bad way to divide humanity.

Simone Collins: I mean, I would add it, it's also from mostly male researchers doing this, and men do tend to have a more sex. Oriented sexuality, so that makes sense.

Malcolm Collins: So we're gonna go through a lot of her research on this. We're gonna go through the idea that she's gonna promote in this, which is she calls it like BDSM sexuality, but it's more like a sexuality that is more focused on which partner is the dominant or submissive partner.

Mm-hmm. Then focus on the gender of the partner. Mm-hmm.

As we've pointed out historically, this appears to be the primary form of sexuality in your average woman, not every woman, right? Mm-hmm. The same way that not every man is, you know, attracted to women, right. But on

Simone Collins: average it's, it's fair to argue per the research that Malcolm did, that women exist more along the lines of dominant submission orientation than they do to like attraction to.

Man versus woman, which is more how it is for men.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And now other people are pulling out this data, which I love, and which we're gonna go into. But this is

Simone Collins: really important, especially considering that, especially for women. BDSM oriented sexuality or like power, dynamic oriented sexuality. Is this pervasive because we are seeing what.

Ala alluded to in this, in this Substack piece, she did sort of a rise of the sex wars, which she sort of sees as being a predecessor or the, the next thing after the woke wars. Where, and we see this on all sides of the political spectrum. Mm-hmm. There are people including women who are like, this is disgusting.

This is, you know, you know, a violation of women's rights. This is violent, this is horrible. And that is for the same reason why in the past you would see many often predominantly male leaders being like, gay sex is disgusting. This is wrong. And that is because, as you point out in the pragmatist guide to sexuality sexuality exists on a, like, the way we react to, to things like, sources of arousal is we're either aroused or we are disgusted.

So if you, if you may be aroused by something or you could be disgusted by it, and it, it's very hard to not equate disgust with bad morals. So despite the fact that many women are aroused by being dominated, the women who are disgusted by it just can't model that this could possibly be sexy to someone.

Yeah. And I say not

Malcolm Collins: many women, the vast majority of women are aroused by being dominated. Yeah. In the war, people

Simone Collins: can't, they can't, they can't wrap their heads around that. They're like this, it's impossible. It's disgusting. It's immoral.

Malcolm Collins: I love the red pill, like figured this out and it was like their free pass to sex for like half a generation.

What an

Simone Collins: arbitrage play. I mean, it still is though, dominance among men or women. One of the easiest things you can do if you're looking to get partners is to to be the dominant person. Well,

Malcolm Collins: especially because males have become less dominant over time. Mm-hmm. Likely due to environmental pollutants. Yeah.

But that's neither here nor there. Let's go into the data on this. And I'm skipping a bit into this because at the beginning she just had a bunch of stats that I don't think were relevant and we can hit them at the end if we want to or we have time.

Simone Collins: It was about other stuff. It wasn't ne necessarily about, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: When it comes to solid BDSM, you start to see a similar bimodal distribution of interest. The most common relationship people have towards BDSM is either completely uninterested or extremely interested. Mm-hmm. There isn't much of a middle. In fact, in my data, someone's BDSM interest explains more structured variation in their sexuality than whether they're gay or straight.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And here is a very interesting graph, which is both genders, relative strengths, factors, and the variance explained by each of these. So this is looking at, if you're looking at one thing that arouses somebody, how explanatory is that gonna be of all the other things that arouse that person. Ooh. The, the on a zero to 10 graph BDSM is almost an eight, whereas GA to straight is only a 4.5.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that makes sense.

Malcolm Collins: So it's not that BDSM is. Like somewhat more indicative of somebody's actual sexual profile. It is almost twice as indicative.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And then if you're looking at what actually comes between BDSM and gay straight is horror horror related horror, horror, H-O-R-R-O-R is more indicative of somebody's sexual profile.

If they are interested in horror related content. What is

Simone Collins: horror related content?

Malcolm Collins: Guru porn would be an example of that. That's super niche guru would likely be an example of that. Again, super niche.

Simone Collins: Oh, okay. But, okay. Yeah. 'cause that's not as pervasive, but it is very predictive Murder

Malcolm Collins: would be an example of that, which, which is common in a lot of things.

Yeah. Monster related stuff would likely be an example of that. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So yeah, a lot, a lot of stuff that's in a lot of form. Okay.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: After gay straight, the next one that's almost the same as gay straight in terms of explanation of pro profile is incest slash age play.

After that, again, almost as good is gender play. And then the, the lowest is sensuality. Hmm. Which is actually a core part of like women's sexual profiles.

Simone Collins: What even missed that,

Malcolm Collins: and keep in mind this graph is not about the popularity of each of these. It's about their explanatory values to the variance of other arousal parts of the person.

Right.

Simone Collins: In other words, how predictive is it of, or how much does it correlate with? Yeah. Almost kind of like, you know, going back to the episode that you did on how political ideology sets clustered.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But those said that anything was in the cluster is a good indication of everything else.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Here's

Malcolm Collins: the thing. This one thing is a much better indication than anything else.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: It, it's like if you could tell just from a person's abortion stance or just Well, no, no, no. Reverse it. So

Simone Collins: what, what the study did that's like this is that being a democrat in this study was extremely predictive of this huge set of ideologies, which is pretty crazy.

Yeah. And that's what you're seeing here is, is being into BDSM is hugely predictive of a whole bunch of other ideologies. Meaning that you can, if you know people are into BDSM fairly accurately infer a lot of things about their sexuality. The same way where knowing someone is a Democrat, or sorry, especially a Democrat, can enable you to infer a lot of ideologies.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But very different because we're talking about one thing versus other things. So I wouldn't go too deep on that.

Simone Collins: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. The above graph is a result of factor analysis, basically a process that finds the natural clusters in the data. For example, the classic big five personality test was built off of factor analysis.

Basically, they ask people a bunch of questions and then notice the questions like, are you the life of a party? Or really predictive of answers to a bunch of other questions. Like, I like adventure, I enjoy chatting with strangers. That's, if you know somebody is the quote unquote life of the party, you can make a bunch of better guesses about other parts of them in a way that is less true for questions like they like cake more than pie.

And, and what she's saying here is the they like cake more than pie is they like males more than females, or females more than males. And the I'm the life of the party is the, are you into BDSM or horror?

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: If we explain the same process to a bunch of questions about what arouses you, someone's attitudes towards BDSM emerge as the most distinct and defining cluster People who like it, people who dislike it are distinct.

I. And different from each other, more so than they are along any other axis. And here you can see just how far apart they are from this screen plot I put here.

Simone Collins: Hmm. The

Malcolm Collins: sexual interest spectrum into men versus women is not very different from other types of sexual interests. It's just more visible.

The category of gender as a sexual interest is a public thing heavily ritualized by culture. This makes sense since males and females having fetishes for each other's bodies, results in reproduction. And this has gotten real popular and become a wholesome cornerstone of civilization and media and identity.

I love how she describes males and females have a fetish for each other's bodies, and it got popular and it's a cornerstone of civilization and identity. You swap out just the type of body that goes through the ritual marriage. So we get the concept of sexual orientation as distinct from other types of sexual interests.

There's no quote unquote marriage concept for other fetishes. And the core reason of this is John Money. We haven't done the episode on him yet, but we have filmed it and he is a monster and he is the one who invented this concept. It is not a natural thing to think. You might say that gendered sexual orientation is distinct for reasons besides social orientation, such as it wholly defines who you can have a satisfying sexual relationship with.

This is obvious from accounts of gay people who didn't know they were gay, trying to make a straight relationships work, quote anything physical felt force. Like I was an actor playing a role. I never understood why people liked kissing or sex. Mm-hmm. For me, it was uncomfortable at best, painful at worse.

I was never attracted to men. I was just wisdom because it was expected. But you can find your identical accounts from people with other types of sexual orientations too. BDSM as asexual orientation.. I thought there was something off about my sexuality since high school because I didn't get turned on, when hooking up with my partners.

I thought maybe I was gay, but it was the same as the girl I dated. I was attracted to her and enjoyed physical contact with her, but I couldn't get turned on the way I did when I was fantasizing about dark things alone in my bed. I did get turned on in a few in-person situations, a girl holding me down and kissing me.

A guy fingering me on the dance floor while I was squirmed away. And eventually I realized that's what I was into. Once I got comfortable enough telling people what I was into, it took a while. I started having good sex. I am not disgusted by vanilla sex, but it is a similar vibe to cuddling for me and can be awkward because I'm simply not turned on by even the hottest person imaginable, gently going down on me.

Simone Collins: Hmm. And

Malcolm Collins: then another person said, I occasionally want vanilla sex with people I really love, but I don't get turned on by it.

Simone Collins: This is so the rising sex wars. I think it's super, super damaging, especially to women because already it's, it's a really big problem. I think that many women don't realize that they could have incredibly satisfying sex if they were just aware of this dynamic.

Yeah. Like, I cannot emphasize based on the data that you found in the Pregnant Guide to Sexuality, how many women are having these experiences where they are having vanilla loving sex with their partners,

Malcolm Collins: and they're just like, I'm not into this at all. Right. Yeah. They're like, well, I guess

Simone Collins: I just, you know, and they're like, well, you know, women don't really, they're not into sex and they don't realize that like, and you know, ala describes this in, in the blog post too.

She's like, you know, I, I didn't, you know, I had a little bit of like, sort of the vanilla experience to begin with. And then, but like, she, she just thought she didn't have a sex drive.

Malcolm Collins: Well, oh no. And this is why it's very important to educate young women about this. Mm-hmm. Or they can end up thinking they're gay when they're not gay.

Yeah. Same with young men. They can end up thinking they're trans when they're not trans. Would you. Do not explain normal sexual profiles. And here I'm not defining normal by what Christians accept or what society accept. No. By actual

Simone Collins: sexual profiles,

Malcolm Collins: by frequency at least within our current system.

Yeah. You end up with people making really bad decisions about who they are and their life choices. Yeah. At worse.

Simone Collins: And it, and, and at best you have people who live their entire lives with no sexual satisfaction. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Despite maybe

Simone Collins: being, you know, happily married and having sex multiple times a week.

Can you imagine?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah. No, it is, it's honestly a really sad outcome. And these god, these women who go into this like anti-porn, anti kink rants and everything.

Simone Collins: Well, yeah, because that, that, so like to all the women, that those women who are fully disgusted by this and who think it's morally bad, like, it's not like they're, they're pretending.

It's not like they're hiding something or they, they, they know the truth. They don't know the truth. Okay. Maybe some are, I, I wanna think that they don't know the truth, but now this is like, so the women who haven't yet discovered that their sexuality is as ala calls it bd, BD sexuality are, are thinking, well, I better never ever get involved with that because that is, that is me being hurt by people.

Yeah. Me, me being victimized and hurt and traumatized and, and, and then they never discover it and they live sexually lives. No, I honestly

Malcolm Collins: believe that the women who like freak out and go on rants about this, it reminds me of how we keep fighting like, you know, like Republican who are like anti-sex, anti-porn guys, like in public bathrooms, having sex with random men, you know?

Oh, you think they're

Simone Collins: secretly into it? I dunno. I mean like, keep in mind like a lot of the men who are super anti-gay, were, are like literally just from a sexual orientation standpoint, very, very disgusted by male bodies.

Malcolm Collins: I think the majority of the men who are the most anti-gay are gay. Like, this is something we keep seeing in the data, right?

Like, the thing is, is that if you're actually just like grossed out by men or like turned off by choking or whatever. Mm-hmm. And especially if you have a long term partner and it's not like an active threat to you when you're going out and hooking up with people, you just don't think about it that much.

Mm. It's the people who are constantly thinking about it and needing to suppress it. Mm. Who are the ones who constantly talk about it.

Simone Collins: Mm.

Malcolm Collins: Which is I think why you see us where we're like, oh, this is curious, but like, we just don't have that much of a horse in this race. We're like you know, don't screw up your kids, but, you know, whatever.

Whereas the people who get like really passionate and go on these big tirades about like, men choke us and I'm like, you are thinking a lot about men choking you. I, I don't know if like. And as we've pointed out women actually have a, a, your average woman, like if, if you're looking at the percentage of women who prefer this, more women are turned on by this than turned off by this.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And, but the, and PSA, as you point out in the prime, which Guide to Sexuality, which is free to our Patreon premium subscribers audiobook and ebook it you really like, as much as that might turn you on, you really shouldn't, like, in terms of these sexually related deaths out there, auto asphyxiation

Malcolm Collins: is, no, you shouldn't.

It's, it's, it's dangerous. We talked Yeah, like there, there are other

Simone Collins: ways that you can get satisfaction, almost certainly. So, please be careful if that does turn you on. 'cause you know, danger.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway, to quote one of her friends who, who anonymously talked to her about this, she goes, I occasionally have vanilla sex with people I really love, but I still don't get turned on by it either I make sex purely about connecting with eroticism, or I think kinky thoughts and get turned on that way.

So they're, they're having vanilla sex and they're like, I love it. She quotes this as anon friend. Part of me wonders if this is her just writing as an anon friend. I think talk, she asked for quotes. Yeah, true. No, she, no, I think she

Simone Collins: really did this research.

Malcolm Collins: If, if you swapped out, well, obviously she did.

She has huge sample sets. This was done on a sample. No, no, no. But I

Simone Collins: mean, in terms of the quotes she included in there she, she, she really worked hard to source those.

Malcolm Collins: If you swapped out kinky stuff for gay stuff, this would be indistinguishable from accounts of gay people trying to navigate life.

Totally. Before they figured out what they were.

Simone Collins: Yes.

Malcolm Collins: And then she says, and I like this 'cause she talks about it from personal experience. I am one of these tales. I've been into BDSM type stuff as long as I can remember some of my earliest memories four or five years old, were proto sexual fantasies, was bondage well before I had any exposure to anything sexual, whatever.

Simone Collins: Mm. I

Malcolm Collins: was in denial about it for years and my first relationship with vanilla after the initial novelty was my boyfriend wore off. So did our sex life entirely. I thought I had simply had a low sex drive. Sex seemed like a chore. I figured that's just the way sex was for everyone. Women weren't supposed to like sex that much, am I right?

But it turns out, actually, no, it wasn't that I didn't like sex, it was that I didn't like vanilla sex.

And this is where I'd push back against this narrative that we sometimes see on the right, which is that an individual gets corrupted by kinky stuff and formerly they were able to be turned on by, normal things. And now that they've engaged in kinky stuff, they no longer get turned on by normal things.

When if you actually look at the data, and we talk about this in the Pragma Dis Guide to Sexuality, what often actually happens is an individual is not particularly turned on by normal things, and then they finally figure out how to activate arousal in themselves. Through kinky stuff, and without that, they never would've had, an arousing sexual life.

And where this creates problems is around individuals who , grew up never being exposed to anything that significantly aroused them. And then they finally find something that significantly arouses them, uh, you know, in their teens or as an adult and they didn't build up the resistance to those types of things.

And so they end up having major problems around it. Um, but it's not. Because the thing is kinky, it is because they were never exposed to anything that really aroused them in the way that other people were aroused by things all the time.

Mm-hmm. Once I started engaging in kinky relationships, surprise, I suddenly had a vicious sex drive. Sex became bonding transcendent and wonderful the way everyone else had been talking about it finally made sense.

Nowadays IXK engage in exclusively in kinky relationships. And here there's a graph she has of a non-consent interest score by age of first interest. Oh. And what you can see is the non-consenting, whether it is you know, cis males, cis females, et cetera, non ci way stronger and more powerful if you first were interested in it before the age of five.

Simone Collins: Wow. Whoa, man. People have good memories. And then, you know what I was up to then stronger

Malcolm Collins: still if it's like before the age of 10, and then it drops down a lot and you don't see as much. You know, if you get, if you get to it between like 15 and 20. Hmm. And, and as she says here, for most fetishes in my data, the earlier the age of onset of a fetish, the more extreme the fetish tends to be.

People who report BDSM related fetishes, starting at the age of five or earlier, were the most into it. This is usually well before exposure to porn or likely anything sexual at all. This is good evidence, I think, for BDSM and sexual orientations in general, not just gender based ones being innate or otherwise quite early.

Mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: And I'll note

Malcolm Collins: here you know, I've mentioned, you know, where I have non-normative arousal patterns. They started way before puberty for me like at least half a decade before puberty for me. Same. And when I, but

Simone Collins: not five IG How do, do you remember anything? You have a drink? No, not five. I, I went to

Malcolm Collins: puberty super late.

I went to puberty at like 16 and a half. It's crazy, super late. But the point here being is, is before that when I would, you know, lay in bed and create fantasy worlds and create, you know, stuff like that, like. The, the, the things that later I recognized were arousal were major features in these worlds.

Mm. But at the time I didn't contextualize them that way. Of course not. Yeah. Which I think shows that these are not things that are created by you know, environments when you're a kid. Certainly nothing happened to me when I was a kid. I think a lot of it is actually genetic and cultural. Yeah.

To, to be honest and like, we're not allowed to talk about that. We're not allowed to be like,

Simone Collins: and we 100% see this in

Malcolm Collins: like Japan. Like they prefer phenotypically young partners Yeah. And erotic materials across country.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And like the auntie porn that we kept having to take off that one site that I worked at early in career, this is

Malcolm Collins: in India, where they like older women who show what like, it was like,

Simone Collins: like armpits and just sort of Yeah.

Just. Middle-aged women, like not really looking. That would be

Malcolm Collins: no interest to me at all. Like yeah, it

Simone Collins: was, it was, it was very strange, but it was clearly a thing for some people. And I, I think it was clustered genetically. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And, and that's okay. Like mm-hmm. I know that we're, for whatever reason, I don't wanna talk about this, but I think that a lot of this is just genetic.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. You do you, you know, whatever,

Now, this may seem tangential or weird to talk about that usually the things that later become fetishes, , become things that people get interested in long before they go through puberty. But it actually matters a lot. If you are, for example, worried about your kids becoming, you know, sexual deviants, , , I think the perception is.

Oh, they're gonna see some weird, you know, website and that's gonna turn them onto all this stuff. When, if you actually read forums around people who have, uh, paraphilias or fetishes, , what it almost always is, is, oh yeah, there was that Power Rangers episode or that episode of a cartoon when I was a kid.

Or that, um, you know, how many people were awakened by. One of the Spy Girls episodes is, is, is a major joke.

Saber Spark: Are you kidding me? If there was a show that truly questioned the purpose of a cartoon, it was totally spies

race. What are we gonna do now? I mean, seriously. What the is this cartoon? One can't help but ask if totally spies was fetish fuel in disguise if the people who made this cartoon were subtly telegraphing their fetishes.

I mean, yeah, that's quite the bizarre accusation, but trust me, there is some interesting evidence that supports that claim really. Really interesting.

. There's bondage feet, schoolgirls mummification, buried in sand wigs. Life draining, shrinking muscles, skirts, sneezing, bondage, swimsuits, cross-dressing, sweating, face swap. Covered in mud, covered in gum, brainwashing, wrestling, bondage, showering, transformation, furries, towels, head enlargement.

Rule 63, cheerleading, entanglement, ripped clothes, weight gain, forced feeding, giant girls tattoos, frozen made outfits, cat girl outfits, aging, bondage, and shrinking clothes. So do you see where I'm coming from?

Simone Collins: But also seriously, like what is with the French, who made that show like Totally Spies is very suss for a children's show.

Or, you know, the people think, oh, they're, they're gonna be turned into furries by, , you know, going to a furry convention or hanging out when furries when instead it's, it's watching, the Disney's Robinhood, which turns somebody into a furry.

this matters because. It goes against the intuition a lot of people have, and it causes people to attempt to shield their kids from things that aren't actually relevant in the development of paraphilias.

Although I should place a special caveat with furries here because there actually are communities of furries that become common in schools and recruit kids that don't have this as a paraphilia, but are just normal kids and like pretending to be animals. As you can see in the recent video as we've had on ours, our kids have liked wearing, you know, animal ears recently and pretending to be like a fox or a cat.

That is a normal phase. Kids go through and sometimes other kids can PSYOPs them. Into very weird beliefs using urban monocultural ideas, or especially if they happen to be autistic or something. Um, but here I'm specifically talking about paraphilias and not the predatory communities.

Malcolm Collins: when you can't do anything about it. Yeah. If you contextualize it as deviant, it leads to deviant actions, because then that's such an important point.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Your, your arousal patterns are not an endorsement of those things. And, and I think for a lot of women, it's also really hard to navigate BD sexuality.

I'm just using ALA's coinage 'cause it's fun. Because women don't condone. Unauthorized surprise sex or you know, even if they

prefer it.

Yeah. Even if they prefer it, even if it really turns them on, like that doesn't mean it's okay. That doesn't mean they want it to happen. But it does mean that in some scenarios where they may simulate it, that it's really sexy for them.

I mean, so one thing that I'm wondering about though as I'm as I'm talking about this with you is there may be a lot of guys, like married guys who are listening to your podcast who are like, well, so I've only had vanilla sex with my wife. She's not very sexually adventurous at all, and she has zero sex drive.

And maybe they're wondering now like, well, crap. Like, does my wife have a sex drive that she just doesn't realize? She, but there's something you want to explore. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, I, the way, but how do you

Simone Collins: explore it if she, if, because I think a lot of women are uncomfortable talking about their sexuality. No.

Like, what do you

Malcolm Collins: do Books? Is she reading? How does she engage with sexuality and literature? Well, our society has a lot of taboos against women engaging with this publicly. If your wife is reading 50 Shades of Gray, that, that

Simone Collins: giveaway,

Malcolm Collins: that's a giveaway, right? Like you might see this as innocuous. It's not innocuous that is saying something

Simone Collins: fair.

Malcolm Collins: she is spending a lot of time in the monster effer part of the library you know, as, as I mentioned before, you know, one unique arousal pattern I've, I've mentioned publicly, is I, I find vampires really hot. Like before I went to, everyone thinks vampires

Simone Collins: are hot.

Malcolm Collins: No, no, not everyone does. Really only a few.

I remember West Virginia was like the cultural hot spots. Oh, is this like a person? Yeah. This, this just an us thing. I remember. Come on, the

Simone Collins: vampire movies are super big, but I guess in like white people territory, nevermind. So maybe, yeah. Maybe it's genuine. Yeah, no, I think

Malcolm Collins: it's like a white person.

It's like maybe, but like I. Vampires and werewolves. I was like every other book. And, and, and, and even though, you know, I hadn't gone through puberty, you know, these were books I was getting from the, the Vampire and werewolf section of the aisle, which means that they definitely had like sexual undertones.

Right?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And the question is, is why are people doing this? Like, why are they engaging with this stuff even before puberty? Right. Like, and I think that that's also really important for people to contextualize.

Simone Collins: Good point. Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: A lot of girls, especially when they're engaging with this content, it's before they actually start to feel arousal.

When they are reading their first you know, the vampire stories are their first, well, whatever it is that turns them on, right? Yeah. Eventually,

Simone Collins: yeah. Gosh. Yeah. It's crazy how young kids learn about vampires. I mean, our kids know everything about vampire and zombie lore and.

Malcolm Collins: You got very mad at, did you know there's like a zombie movie now that's like, big?

Yeah, it's, so this, I don't know, it came out a few years ago, but it was like a movie for people who like want to slowly eat other people. Wait, what? What? Yeah. Yeah. It's about a girl and a guy. And it was clearly like about the sexual undertones. It is like a, a thing that came out like three or four years ago.

Simone Collins: Okay.

There were two of them. It turns out a raw and bones and all.

Malcolm Collins: But I guess I'm saying like, like, like good for them. What? Whatever. From Bob's Burger.

Speaker 2: Remember you let me watch Night of Living Dead when I was eight. So now I wake up every night standing in the middle of my room, .

Speaker: Wait, you still get those?

Speaker 2: Yeah, they're weirder now.

Speaker: Oh boy.

Speaker 2: I think my subconscious fears and my butting sexuality are getting all mixed up.

Speaker: Oh, okay. I, I, Tina, I don't wanna hear about, so I think I'm being

Speaker 2: attacked by zombies and I start screaming. Do you wanna make out. And I make go with it.

Speaker: Hmm. I might just bunk with gram and grams.

Okay. Enough. Gene, Louise, you sleep in Tina's room. Tina, you're quarantined. You sleep alone. We'll strap you down or something.

Speaker 2: Leave my lips free.

Simone Collins: Okay. And

Malcolm Collins: I was like, that's a, well, hey, keep in mind it's

Simone Collins: not my fetish. I, I, I guess I just can't, yeah, there's,

Malcolm Collins: there's the, the Zombie High, which is a very popular Disney show.

Yeah,

Simone Collins: yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Where the, you've got the zombies and then like cheerleaders and then they added werewolves and then they added aliens. I don't know what else they've added

Simone Collins: because why not? Yeah, why

Malcolm Collins: not? Go for it. No, I mean, asking why are people into this stuff when it's contextualized in a romantic context is interesting.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. For something so innate resistance to attempts to change. And for something that so radically affects the type of relationships that work, it's odd that we don't have a term for this type of sexuality.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. So

Malcolm Collins: I'm going to refer to people with innate BDSM preference as BDSM. Sexual pronounced? No, as BD

Simone Collins: ecs.

Malcolm Collins: BD ecs. Oh, wait, sorry. As people was without a tender sexual, you know, that's, that's what she call the other thing. Tender Sexual and versus bd ECS sms. Beaty. Sms. Yeah. And she says she apologizes for the cheesiness Inventing words is her dumb sta.

Simone Collins: But I love that. I love that For ala, so we have gay straight, and then we have Tender Sexuals and Beaty ecs.

Malcolm Collins: But this is also important to know, right? Like if you are entering a relationship, and this is one of the reasons why this whole like, oh, no women's into this. No guy is into this. All of this stuff is bad.

Like it's, it's bad because it causes people to enter relationships. Those people, they are not sexually compatible with. Yeah. Can you

Simone Collins: imagine tender sexual, marrying sexual? That's, that's it. It can't work out. You, you can't fake that kind of stuff. It's

Malcolm Collins: no, you can't like, it, it does not work. Yeah. And, and you're going to end up, like you could, I mean, you could fake it like there's beards and stuff, but it's no different from living with a beard.

And I think it probably leads to a lot of divorces in cultures that are uncomfortable talking about this.

Simone Collins: I mean, yeah. Unless you're like really happy to have a. Sexless marriage,

Malcolm Collins: which, well, yeah. I mean I think that this is in part due to like if you look at Mormon culture or something, right? Like I think a higher number of divorces might be due to them just not talking about this.

Yeah. Especially when BD SME are clearly a big not, not unusual was in Mormon culture. Yeah. Clearly. If you look at the books they're creating like twilight and stuff, I'm like, come on, you guys like I, I know, I know what you guys are about. We see what's

Simone Collins: going on. Yeah. We see what's going on. But what's sad is that there may, like, you may have two BD Maxs married, but because this is such a taboo thing, it's almost like two two gay people in a straight relationship, but like, not realizing they can just be gay together.

You know it,

Malcolm Collins: yeah.

Simone Collins: Sad.

Malcolm Collins: Why the porn debate Is stupid. In the sex wars, I am increasingly viewing as the successor of the woke wars. Many tender sexual feminists are very upset about how, quote unquote degrading porn is Women are spit on, slapped and choked. How bad and offensive this does look pretty bad if you're tender sexual.

It really does. Gay people looked pretty bad and offensive to heterosexual people for a lot of history. But I think they failed to realize that a large minority of women who are bd sexual for whom BDSM is just a deep part of their sexuality as lesbianism is to lesbians.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And this is more of a female or submissive thing than a male.

I would note here, if you go by a-list statistics on the number of women who would fall into this BD sexual category, uh, it would be way higher than the proportion of men who are born same sex attracted.

Malcolm Collins: Men's sexuality is more responsive to general slutiness, while women are overwhelmingly at least a little into power dynamics. And I noted this before, like men are not as. Captured by this as women are.

Simone Collins: Hmm. So if

Malcolm Collins: I'm putting a graph on screen here, this is how erotic do you find being the sub in females?

You see a huge, extremely here. And, and, and for men, you know, even, even in terms of not, you just don't see it. Like men are just not that they don't care as much.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: How erotic do you find being the dom? With males you find like, so to get an idea, so for women who get really turned on by being the sub, you're looking at near 50%.

For men who like really being the dom, you're looking at 25%.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: So it's just a way lower number. And again, this is why I always get so frustrated by people who are like, oh, well, you know, you know, clearly men are forcing this on women. I'm like, look at the stats lady.

Simone Collins: Well, and also it this, just to, to go back to stuff that you cover a lot in the pragmatist guide to Sexuality, this, this makes evolutionary sense.

That men really wouldn't need to care that much about power dynamic because the thing that would ensure their survival was making sure that the thing they had sex with was capable of producing offspring.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. And for women you know, you, you would regularly and thing that ensure their

Simone Collins: survival was ensuring that the thing that they had sex with was powerful.

Malcolm Collins: That was And didn't kill them.

Simone Collins: And didn't kill them. I mean

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, no, that's more common than you would think, you know? Yeah, yeah. Given the number of villages that were rated and stuff like that, and we talk about this anyway. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So being, being kind of turned on by the Raider who's coming into your village and, you know, doing naughty things is probably better than you resisting to the death.

Right? Yeah. Well, and I, and I

Malcolm Collins: think that this is in part why you see this instinct in women, as we've seen, to welcome aggressive immigrant populations.

Simone Collins: Mm.

Malcolm Collins: And pretend like they're a complete non-issue when they, oh my gosh, very clearly are.

Simone Collins: Ooh. That never occurred to me, but you could be onto something there that's dark.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, no, it, it is dark. They are, they're trying their people and their their future and their potential children, their

Simone Collins: village being rated survival instinct kicking in. Yeah. They're like, oh

Malcolm Collins: yeah,

Simone Collins: come

Malcolm Collins: on Raiders. I'm a, I'm a big fan of Sharia law. Oh my god. You know, so bad. That's so bad. The grooming gangs come on.

It's barely grooming.

Simone Collins: I'm just trying to make it by here. Yeah. Then Ailey

Malcolm Collins: goes on to say, you don't need my grass to know this. Look at the overwhelming popularity of groups like 50 Shades of Gray, or the raunchy rough dominance common in most popular women's erotica.

I always get so frustrated when feminists are like, men are disgusting. Have you seen the weird stuff that they have on their porn sites? And I'm like, excuse me. I've seen the weird stuff you women put in Barnes and Noble. Okay. The the entire monster er aisle., That is not something that you see at the same frequency, even in the male centers of debauchery.

comedy skit: What. What are all these packets in here? I there's no room in the freezer for this, for this ice cream. Why is it blood for? Who's Brad? I thought you were dating a werewolf. Brad's vampire. Brad's, it's a different guy. So now you're dating a vampire. Okay. Um, does he have a home where he can keep his blood food?

Does it have to be in our freezer? Because I want ice cream in my freezer. I don't want blood in my freezer. I'm not being, don't you dare accuse me of being small-minded. I don't. It's my freezer. Does Brad pay for the freezer? No. Whose blood is this? What are all these Um, these charges? They're all for like $70 and it's just a bunch of iron pills.

What for? So Evangeline's back with, um, Brad the Vampire and so I don't think I want to hear this, but we're buying her iron tablets to make sure she doesn't Oh God. Can't we just say don't? Isn't there like a wait till? I don't know. Co never, don't ever, don't ever let a vampire. Okay. Alright. No, I get it.

Like be safe. But also, wow. Brad's a thousand years old. That's right. Yeah. Nope, because I was talking to Evangeline, she was talking about history class and she was talking about the Inquisition and Brad was there. She's dating a thousand year old. I don't care if he doesn't look. A thousand. He's a thousand.

Oh my God. Wait, is Chad Chad's a dog? Is Chad three? This isn't gonna work. This is, I'm being so cool as a dad in so many ways. But if she's dating an a thousand year old and she's also dating a 3-year-old, then we're gonna have to have a sit down as a family to talk about what are we even gonna talk about?

I'm gonna sit down. No, just right here on the floor.

Malcolm Collins: Roughly 80% of women in my data are sexually submissive, which you could say is the default female sexuality, which by the way, is higher than the number of women who are not attracted by women.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm. About 20% of women and about 15% of men are BDSM sex, B

Simone Collins: bd. And

Malcolm Collins: innate with me, deeply oriented towards BDSM. And I note here that this is more common for women than for men. Yes. By a significant margin in her data set.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So if you're a man listening to this and you just don't get it, like Yeah.

It's, it's mostly a woman. Yeah. Because most men are tender

Malcolm Collins: sexual, even though men don't want to hear that this is what men mean when they're like, I just want romance. Romance.

Simone Collins: Well, yeah. And when you look at male erotic material, it's slutty, very enthusiastic. Women who just really want it.

Malcolm Collins: They just really want it.

Yeah. They're just like, oh, I just really wish, instead of, you know, the, the average man being like, I just, I. Really wish I could hunt people. Like I don't understand why all you guys are so focused on sex. I just really wish I could hunt people.

Simone Collins: The ultimate sport.

Malcolm Collins: The ultimate sport, yeah. That's most entertaining.

Right? As my data has a slightly inflated kink rates, I'd estimate something closer to 15% of women and 10% of men are b, D sme, BDSM top. My tend men tend to be slightly less polarizing Women, you could say they have higher rates of BDSM bisexuality or switch us, like able to do both roles. Okay. And for more on this particular topic, you can look at my rater.

Versus homesteader, sexual profil in men. Yeah. Where men may have an adaptive sexual profile because the optimal arousal profile when you are raid a village is very different from the optimal arousal profile when you're caring for your wife and kids. Yeah. And so, men and men actually have like two local optimum was most men falling, was in boast.

And because a lot of men learn about their sexuality through pornography, which their brain would see as disposable rated individuals they think of themselves as far more BDS sexual than they really are. And they're actually more tender sexual and long-term relationships. But anyway, in general, women prefer more violent porn than most men do, and she has a citation here, rougher sex than men think they'd like.

This holds true in my data, whether you're measuring my own followers or an anonymous page, survey respondents. And then here she has a, how much of the porn you watch is violent graph. And, and as you can see you know, it's, it's women who are, who are into this. What's also interesting is other than women, who else is really into it?

Trans men. So women with additional stuff. The people who are least into it are cismen. You know, af after trans women are the most into it, then it's women. And then after women, it's trans women. And then cis men are like not into it at all. Like, men are just very, very tender sexual.

And I would note here if you happen to be a man who is, you know, competent and marginally attractive and not a tender sexual, , that's a huge arbitrage on dating markets when you're a young man. , Especially sexual dating marketplaces. You can just absolutely clean up. And I think a lot of my success when I was younger, , in sleeping with lots of people, came down to, , just being non-tender sexual, , and, , being socially competent and normal looking.

Because apparently that's very rare in males and it's something that a lot of women are looking for.

And, and here you see a graph here where she has a hard face slapping during smacks by violent porn consumption.

And, and here you see, what men believe that that what women would want, like how much of the porn you watch is violent and what women actually want, which is just like way more if women watch a lot of violent porn, they're like 70%. Like I'm into this. Like, hit me hard

Simone Collins: daddy.

Malcolm Collins: And then this is something I definitely saw when I used to sleep around a lot.

Like, this is why I've always found it to be so effing bizarre when women are like, women aren't into this. And I'm like, yes, they are. Like, why? You mean either you are not into it or you're pretending to not be into it? And the amount you talk about, it makes me think you're pretending. Violent porn with distressed women is actually not that popular overall compared to porn with slutty women.

I'm currently working on a porn database of the most popular porn hub videos, and I definitely have my issues with how sex is being presented to people in mass. But so far violence is rare. I hope to publish this data more. Well, violence against people who are into it is rare, is what she's saying here.

So I think what we're seeing is very tender. Sexual women hear about videos of women getting abused. They assume this is rampant. Most anti-porn feminists I hear, talk about this and reference how it's quote unquote everywhere despite . There're not being any good data supporting this claim. Go check the front page of PornHub and count how many videos feature women who are showing distress.

And if you want something totally fictional, 'cause you're like, well, that's showing real women, you can go to EENT type and you're just not gonna see that many they, because that's an entirely fictionalized environment. So presumably if it was that common, you'd see it everywhere and you don't they assume that it's quote unquote teaching men to be more violent and that women don't want this.

They are not aware that a substantial minority of women, more so than men are actually BDS, sexual BDS, sexual women are weirder, more stigmatized and often stay quiet about their sexual preferences, especially in like group conversations, which is why these women may not know this or they haven't looked at the data.

Well, Tinder sexual women are more culturally dominant view of female sexuality and enjoy a lot of uncontroversial backing when they frame their own sexual orientation as the moral good that everyone else should follow. And I'd also note here that like if you're like, well, what about like the Bible and whatever, like the Bible doesn't say that women need to enjoy Tinder.

The closest you're gonna come is lines around, , you know, loving your, your wife's body in the way that you love your own, or providing for your wife or sacrificing for your wife. But if this is something that your wife, , likes, , and is turned on by and was coded into her without her consent, , and this is the primary way that she gets turned on.

I don't see how that goes against this. a lion I found used a lot to justify, , not doing anything that could be considered a form of kink within marital sex is Hebrews 13, four, because it states that a marriage should be undefiled. The problem is, is the context of this word. And this seems here more tied to adultery than anything else.

Simone Collins: No, totally agree with you on this.

Malcolm Collins: The one thing that

Simone Collins: shocked me the first time I read, especially the Old Testament, was the amount of both violence and sex. And I don't remember there being a whole lot of people lovingly knowing each other. It, it happened, but I didn't hear about how tender and romantic it was.

Malcolm Collins: there's like one instance of some poems about that, but like, oh, in

Simone Collins: the Song of Solomon? Yeah. Yeah. But I mean

Malcolm Collins: that's,

Simone Collins: it was more about romance, not so much about,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. You don't know what type of, you know, sex they were having. Yeah. You only know about the romance.

Simone Collins: It could have been really going at it in bd some actual ways.

Who knows?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, you see this as, as, as as somebody who is, is, is fairly on the aggressive side in their sexual profile. I still date people very romantically. Like you, you would say that our dating process is very romantic, right? Like, I think that there's this misunderstanding that, oh, well this means that you gotta be a jerk to somebody all the time.

Like it's what red pillars accidentally believe. Not

Simone Collins: at all. Yeah, no.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I don't really see a correlation there. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway, the Tinder sexual woman exposed to BDS sexuality can be jarring. Quote, she was increasingly opening into her BDSM preferences and really wanted me to be very dominant and forceful, and as it turned out, she was into knife plate and wax stuff, stuff that left her with bruises.

She eventually sought this out outside of the relationship, but it freaked me out seeing her with bruises and burns. I felt very confused and sad. It was weird that this was a thing she wanted, because I was happy to give her things she wanted, but I didn't want to hurt her. And I'm like, okay, yeah, pussy, just say I'm a big old pussy.

No, sorry. The, the point here being is, is what turns women on when you're looking at a, and right here she's talking about a tender sexual friend talking about their experience dating a bisexual. And, and she's like, I, I sympathize with this. If violence powers, sadism, et cetera, are all things that you've experienced in really terrible context, like things villains do to heroes in movies, it can be confusing to think that some people want this.

And furthermore, they can find it good and fulfilling. Some insist that bd, some sexuals cannot find it good and fulfilling, and they must necessarily be broken or traumatized in some way. Well, it's true that in my data, BDS Sexuals are more likely to have experienced rough childhoods than tender sexuals.

The majority of both groups still report happy non-abusive childhoods. And again, we've noted in our data, what happened to you in your childhood really doesn't seem to affect your sexual profile that much. It appears inborn, and I would assume most of it is. Pretty evolved based on cultural groups and stuff like that.

Now I'd also note here, yeah, like this idea that like, oh, if you're engaging with sexuality this way, it must mean that your relationship is really toxic or that you don't actually care about each other, or, and that's just not what I've seen at all in my experience. This is not like where I see people who are polyamorous and I'm like, oh, I'm gonna look at their relationship and knock down the probability that it will stay stable.

I'm like, oh, they're really just looking for a new partner. When I see monogamous couples engaged in more aggressive forms of sexuality, I normally upgrade. Their, their relationship in terms of its likelihood of staying together? For a lot of reasons not all of 'em are positive. One is that there is a higher probability that the other partner has dirt on you that's gonna lower the chance that you leave a relationship.

You also are gonna feel that finding a partner who is compatible with you is less likely if you attempt to trade out for another partner. Thoughts Simone?

Simone Collins: No, I agree. This is uncontroversial to me,

Malcolm Collins: but I mean, you must know women who are into this versus women who aren't, and their relationship profiles after they engage with it, with their partners versus the ones who are just.

Simone Collins: I think the broader issue is, I don't know the sexual profiles of my, my female friends because they don't talk about it.

And I think a lot of women are not in touch with their sexuality at all.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I think a lot of women, especially who have this sexual profile, are very afraid to talk about it with other women

Simone Collins: or even admitted to themselves. Like, it, it's, it's, it's strictly relegated to the fantasy novels that they read.

And it doesn't even make it into their relationships. I mean, I, we, we have been exposed to some very sexually, self-aware communities like with Rationalists and all the poly communities that we had friends within. But most women like that I know from childhood or I know just through circumstance, super, not in touch with their own sexuality like at all.

And the only place where I see women like feeling comfortable or empowered talking about their sexuality, regardless of political affiliation is just buying vibrators. And that's because like sex toy companies are. You're talking,

Malcolm Collins: getting them women talking. Yeah. Yeah. And like

Simone Collins: basically the only way that I'm seeing women on like in, in like general societies, women in the United States at least getting sexual satisfaction is by themselves using a vibrator.

No, seriously. That's

Malcolm Collins: really sad. No, it's, it's new. The vibrator and their teen dystopia novel. I mean,

Simone Collins: but, but actually like, and like literally that's the only discussion of sexual satisfaction that I hear. Not like, Hey, have you explored different kinks you might have? Or whatever. Like, and that happens, you know, I think even when it happens in the more sex positive communities that are out there.

Which by the way, like, you know, I thought, I used to think that like, okay, well the rationalist community. And ea are like super sex positive and like open to talk about these things. But now it's turning out that even they are now becoming fractured with these sex wars. They, well, they're becoming

Malcolm Collins: really freaked out about sex these days.

Yeah. So then there's like

Simone Collins: the few sex positive people. And I think, I feel like this puts ELA in a terrible position because, you know, she's now tagged as being like the, the gateway drug to sexual depravity when all she's doing is being open and honest about her findings. And she's open about her enjoyment of things.

That doesn't mean that everyone's going to enjoy it, but they're like putting it on her. They're like, no, you're proselytizing this, you're doing, and like she's not, but now she's getting caught up in this. And so even within the, the few sex positive communities that I encountered now they're even not.

Clear now. Well, and I'd also note

Malcolm Collins: here that like if you're talking about like, and this is one of the reasons why it's so like harmful to not talk about the various sexual profiles that people have is, well, I would say you should not marry for the quality of the sex or anything like that. The probability that somebody who is has a unique sexual profile, like a, a fetish you would call it, that their partner is fulfilling, is going to seek sex outside of the relationship, is dramatically lower than somebody who is.

Only securing vanilla sex was in that relationship.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Because you can get vanilla sex from other people whereas sourcing non vanilla sex is dramatically harder. And, and the individual who's like, well, I wasn't willing to do this for my partner, so she just ended up being with other people. This is an individual who's just like, I knew this turned my partner on.

They told me it turned them on. I decided to superimpose my morals around sexuality. Hmm. Like, well, if it physically hurts you, then you must hate it. And the partner's like, well, but I really want this. Right. And this is the female partner, by the way, in, in this. Right. Like, and they're like, well, I am the, the paragon.

And then their partner ends up sleeping with other people because that's what happens. And, and, and this could be due to sexual incompatibility, but it also could be due to, you know, attempting to signal to a plastic bag, right. Like, oh, I'm such a great male that I don't do X or Y, you know. Well, and then

Simone Collins: there's, so there's the other approach to this, which is.

From you could take the perspective that all non creative sex is a sin. And if you're, was I dotting your time trying to get sexual satisfaction out of life, you're wasting your life. I do. Like life isn't about feeling good. Life is about meaningfully pr maximizing that what you believe has value. And if you're not just a pure headness, which you think is kind of dumb, then you should probably not be so fixated on this.

So you know, I mean that's just to not be

Malcolm Collins: Well no, I mean this is our actual larger position on this, which is like, and, and this is actually our lifestyle. Like even though I know the things I could do is you, that would turn me on the most and you know, the things you could do with me that would turn me on the most, it's almost never worth it.

Like time-wise, right? Like,

Simone Collins: well, I mean especially 'cause we have so many things we're working on and there's like the opportunity cost of even a quickie. Which is never off the table. But like still, we, we really have to think twice about even a quickie. No, but the

Malcolm Collins: whole thing for like an orgasm and a bonding opportunity and I'm like, I just don't care that much.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Right. Like, I just do not care. And, and people are shocked by this. They're like, oh, whoa, how could you? And I'm just like, there are other things in life that are a better use of my time.

Simone Collins: Yeah. If that's, if that's literally the best use of your time.

Malcolm Collins: Well, okay. For some people it is. Their biology is different from ours.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. For some people it is. And their values are different than ours. And maybe their opportunity cost is way lower because they're just lower agency. But I'm like,

Malcolm Collins: if you're gonna engage with it, at least engage with it in a way that actually feels good and like Yes. And that,

Simone Collins: that's, yeah. So that's the important, like if you are going to be like, indulge in hedonism either all the time or sometimes like do it.

Well at least please. But also I. There is so much more to life than sexual gratification.

Malcolm Collins: But I note here, when we say it's a sin, I mean it's a sin in the same way that, you know, playing video games as a sin, right? Yeah. Like it's a sin in the way and doing anything that's nonproductive as a sin. I know.

It's like,

Simone Collins: yeah, eat eating more than you need to. That that, yeah. Like all, all these things, you know, like Yeah. The people who, I mean, there are people who orient their entire lives around their sexualities. There are people who orient their entire lives around traveling and going to fancy restaurants.

And I said, these are equally debauched. Okay. Like they are, they are equally sinful. And yeah, we're not trying, I'm, I'm not, I'm, I'm no more sex negative than I am foodie, negative than I am sports obsession, negative than I am, et cetera, et cetera. Right?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the sports I see as worse because they take longer.

Like the individual who sits around watching a game all weekend, have you

Simone Collins: come on poly people. It's like a career takes. Oh

Malcolm Collins: yeah. I mean, I'm not talking about poly people. That's like a whole issue there, right? You know, a lot.

Simone Collins: It's huge investment.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I love that people are like, oh, your, your wife would let you sleep with other people if you wanted to.

And I'm like, I do. Why would I want to? Like, what's the time investment in that? Right?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Like it's a, it is such a waste of time. It, it is. And, and, and people just don't get it. Like they think that humans have this. Voracious sexual profile that I, I, I do not think that humans actually have, especially when they're adults and have a lot of kids.

Simone Collins: Well, one, I think historically there was a lot more poly stuff going on, but I think it's because people lived in very persistent, tight knit communities. And those other people were available, like it was this other couple that you knew it was this other woman that you was in all your social circles and you, you constantly had opportunities and the time.

So I actually think that before it was a lot easier to be poly or to be a swinger than it is now. Yeah. Like now it's hard. Now you have to schedule it. Now it's, you don't always have this passive social time you're spending. So yeah, that's

Malcolm Collins: true. Anyway, to continue here. So a Tinder sexual might ask, why are some people BDS sexual if they're not traumatized? As one of my Tinder sexual friends said, call me weird, but I like sex where. People act like they like each other. You're, you're weird. You're weird. It, it's not that, you know, I can't enjoy that. But like, you know, there's other profiles which are interesting as well.

Simone Collins: Vampires, like the people they victimize in a way

Malcolm Collins: just like, but they like a burger, you know? You know, this is a whole other set of blog posts, maybe even a book's worth of material. But basically if you look at the evolution of apes and a whole lot of history, it's actually kind of weird that BDS sexuality isn't the default.

Power ownership, dominant jealousy, harassment, and yes, even full out grape are integral parts of our closest relatives minus the bonobos. Mostly that not true with the Bonobos. Bonobos are the worst. Like a lot of people think that the Bonobos are not like that violent and, and one of the, they're like, oh, they're into more like gay stuff.

Matriarchal.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And,

Malcolm Collins: and I talk about like the, well, we have instances where a female bonobo took another Bonobos infant threaten to rip its head off if the other woman didn't go down on her. Yeah. Come on man. That is worse than like the worst male chimp stuff. Yeah. I'm not into that. I'm super not into that.

Like, like it turns out, when you give women power in human relatives, they become complete monsters Which is what we regularly see in Bonobos. You can read our book on this. Sexual violence has been among the biggest factors that shaped which of our ancestors got to reproduce and which didn't.

For example, one theory is that females that were attracted to sexually aggressive males were more likely to have sexually aggressive and thus sexually successful sons. The big puzzle to me is why it's bimodal. Is this a cultural artifact? IEG. Why is it high on the tinder sexual end, and high on the you know, b dsm sexual end.

If BDS sexuality is linked to sexual success in our histories, why do we have a substantial fraction of women who are Tinder sexual? Why is there such a huge variance in the type of power dynamics that BDS Maxs prefer? This is one of the big questions of my research. I hope to explore more in upcoming posts.

And again, for me, because I think that part of this is genetic, like that also means that with my kids, I'm definitely not gonna teach them. I. To expect to be tender sexuals. Because if my wife isn't, and I'm not, we'll

Simone Collins: teach, I mean, we'll teach them that some people are though. 'cause I think it's really important for a BD sexual to understand that some people like, because for, for tender sexuals, this is a really, really bad experience.

If someone just goes in hard Yeah. And like expects that they're gonna enjoy this that is a traumatic experience. So I think it, it's very important for us to teach them about tender sexuality. But to perhaps

Malcolm Collins: explain, well I, I noted you know, even on sexual marketplaces, and maybe this extends to marriage, police marketplace, but when I was a kid.

You know, in high school and college and sleeping around, like a common experience I had was women would just be sent to me by their friends. Like, oh, you need to try this guy. You know? And I think part of it was understanding the difference between this as a sexual profile and it is a dating profile in the way people wanna be treated when they're dating.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Which might have been just enough of an arbitrage opportunity that a lot of people were like, oh, he's really nice, but he also knows you know, how to be aggressive within this context. Which, you know, maybe, maybe rare enough, but if we're just gonna go over a few graphs in here. 'cause she, she had a ton of graphs at the beginning, which are pretty interesting.

Yeah.

Simone Collins: And I gotta make your, what is it called? Bon Knee

Malcolm Collins: Bon Chow. So we've got b******s here. How erotic do you find it? Males high on the extreme side, females less so. How erotic do you find anal, interestingly here, women high on the knot side, men prefer it more. How erotic do you find skirts?

Again, males prefer this. Where do you find females preferring it? Frustration. Women are much more interested in frustration. Bimbos again, this is mostly a male saying tickling equal in both sensuality. Preference for females, teens, I found interesting because it was mostly equal between males and females.

And I'm a little surprised. Yeah, erotica, huge preference for females. Females really like erotica when contrasts with males. Again, porn is a, the, the, the, the amount of females that pursue this when it's got a different name, public sex about equal, verbose and then femininity. Huge reference for males here.

If you look at non-consent here you get, you know about equal ose. Great play about equal for both. I find that pretty interesting obedience, female preference master Slave about equal for both choking, huge female preference. And bondage heavy about equal for both.

Simone Collins: There you go.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway, love you.

I'm very excited for our dinner tonight. And here we might note the, you know, I've been very disappointed that you know, Lotus Eaters who has the highest overlap of viewership that we have. Did a whole episode banging on ALA and how terrible she is and how not normal it is. I couldn't even bring myself to watch it.

You know, this is Benjamin, not whatever his name is. You know, who, who's also Sargon of Baca. And I've just been, I was really disappointed about his, you know, Onic pro Iran take like, oh, Israel shouldn't be attacking Iran. And I was like, what? I don't get it. I don't, I don't, I don't like, I wanna like him.

I've tried to reach out to him. I tried to make friends with him. I've tried to, he's never gotten back to me. Despite our huge overlap, despite him frequently talking at conferences I'm talking to, and you know, I, I guess,

Simone Collins: and that was all okay. But now it comes for ala hey, and the door's open. We're happy to talk.

But like, I think that anyone who dunks on Ala has not met her, has not seriously looked at what she, she stands for and who she is. Well, but

Malcolm Collins: some people are just like, she's a slut, which she is. Okay. She sleeps around a lot. Therefore you know, it is bad that she has a public profile. And, and I see that, and I, I can understand that except historically if you're talking about like conservative cultural institutions it was actually very common for the top female intellectual to be what today we would call a prostitute.

Simone Collins: Yeah. All these famous courtesans going back to, to Greek and Roman times like aphasia.

Malcolm Collins: Aphasia. There was the one in France. What was that one?

Simone Collins: Well, there were tons in France. Madam Pomp, you're probably thinking Yeah. But there were tons who had the, the salons who hosted the major intellectual minds of their time.

Yeah. No, this is. Like, oh, the lack of respect. Anyway, I, well, no,

Malcolm Collins: I, I think that there is a difference between normalizing something and understand that women who are top tier intellectuals of their age are going to have sexual profiles that may look more male.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great way of putting it.

And yeah, I mean, yes, I think it's, it's fair to say, and I understand concerns that, that people have, because this is really, really not appropriate for the vast majority of women. But Ala is not proselytizing this way of life. And those other women, most of like the famous correspond No. Some women

Malcolm Collins: end up following her.

I understand this accusation. Right. But that's,

Simone Collins: that's on them. Like, and I, I I think it's, it's more on the community that they have joined that didn't give them warning signs around it. And, and not. Not so much on ala it's not ALA's job to be like,

Malcolm Collins: I don't know. I can understand the accusations here. I, I just, I don't like the, the constantly Normalist takes.

Here's a great picture of me and ala at a party that I saw recently on her Facebook. And it's me clearly very excited about a controversial idea ala like, she doesn't agree, but she's like, I'm really interested in respond. And then you see the guy who's like, who. And then you see the woman who's like this progressive woman who's like,

Simone Collins: Ooh, disgusted by saying that.

Malcolm Collins: And I think that we can reword that. And

Simone Collins: then, then there's the classic Bay Area progressive woman who looked completely disgusted by you standing in the corner.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. No, but, but what I like about this is I think that this is where, like our respect for people lie, right? Like, are you, like, I don't care how much I disagree with you, are you willing to have, like, are you game, are you gonna

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Or are you just gonna sit there in Pearl Clutch and tell me that I'm thinking outside the bounds of what I'm allowed to think.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And I find that to be really frustrating. And I find the o you, you know, the, the not crazy takes, like the individuals who repeatedly have like normalist takes for their community.

Over time it's begun to gross me out more. I, I've seen this was in the conservative space where individuals who I used to have respect for, and I'm like, okay, well like where's your weird take? Where's your crazy take? Where's your,

Simone Collins: especially the ones who decide that they're just going to. Poo poo everything.

Oh, you've made such a bad choice. This person's so bad. This was so dumb. Like, stop, like people who cannot, who don't have the balls to stand stuff. Yeah. I lose my risk respect for them.

No, and this has been an to not by

just by just shitting on everyone else for their takes. Even if they're dumb takes and you can make fun of a dumb take.

I'm all for that. But if all you do is make fun of dump takes and you don't put yourself on the line at any point when there's a chance that you might be wrong, no. You're not an intellectual. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: We, we, we do episodes all the time that I know our fans are gonna hate. Right? Yeah. Like our, our take on Iran.

I know a lot of our fans don't like our take on Iran, but like, right. Yeah. Like, I, I don't, I, I don't think our fans who disagree with us on this have. Honestly thought through like the larger geopolitical consequences.

Simone Collins: Well, and our best fans often disagree with us, and they enjoy the discourse. They enjoy hearing from people with whom they disagree, and that's awesome.

And they don't fault us for being wrong sometimes if, if, if we're wrong on a thing and we, we admit we're wrong on things. So anyway, which

Malcolm Collins: we have multiple times in the past on this show has been like, Hey, we had a, like H one BV since we, like, we had this stance, then we have this stance, right? Yeah, totally.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway, love you to Dec Simone, you are amazing and thank you for not being a prostitute.

Simone Collins: You're welcome. You could be, you'd be great at it. I think the larger, probably not the larger thing is I think everyone's a prostitute if they work, you know? It's just question is who

Malcolm Collins: are you

Simone Collins: selling your body

Malcolm Collins: to?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Who are you selling your body to? It's, it's, it's, it's real. So just are you selling your

Malcolm Collins: body to our fans?

Simone, do I need to have a conversation with you? Wait for the bcha. When you do it look up like a video on how to make the meat go. I don't know

Simone Collins: if I'm gonna have time now 'cause the kids are gonna descend it to my house. Alright, bye.

Malcolm Collins: Whatever. Do whatever you want. Love you.

Simone Collins: Love you too. Loading. Oh,

Malcolm Collins: good.

Simone Collins: I was a little worried that stream yard would be down again. So scared about outages now.

Malcolm Collins: Donald Trump railing on mind. Deve from Russia talking about giving Iran nukes because, you know, he was like, oh, well now some other country might give Iran nukes and Trump. Yeah. What

Simone Collins: even,

Malcolm Collins: what

Simone Collins: are you, first off, no one's gonna do that because that's dumb.

That's like, oh, someone stole the gun from my unstable schizophrenic friend. Don't worry, I'll give them one of my guns. Well, by the way, like my house is deeply unstable and I live in a bad neighborhood. Yeah, yeah. Don't have a lot. I mean, it

Malcolm Collins: shows people who understand, I mean, I think Russia is really overplaying their hand with this and they just need to step back because nobody cares.

They're, I've been really surprised by the sort of gaze for Gaza Trump crowd that's like, what

Simone Collins: is

Malcolm Collins: this? Yeah, this, oh, dare we get involved in a war? Well, yeah. It's not like we're putting boots on the ground or something. Look, I, I will agree with you guys. If it turns out that Trump you know, bombing these facilities draws American into a wire conflict, then I was wrong and Trump was wrong in this gambit and everything like that, right?

Mm-hmm. If it does not, then you've like, like you've been seriously wrong about everything, and this is one of the better political plays in the past century in terms of quickly dealing with a persistent, long-term foes, primary gambling chip. Yeah. Yeah. And, and this isn't the way that they're talking about it.

They're just like, oh, he shouldn't be doing, I, I saw fricking idiot what's his name? The, the, the one who, cER Carlson. Oh, that's what they call him. Cer now, because he so quickly flipped off with, with Trump his sin as Trump was like, Hey, why are you saying this? But he was like, all the Brix countries will go to war with us.

And I was like, are you like actually retarded? The Bri you think India is gonna go to war with us ever us attacking Iran? Do you know what India thinks of like Muslim majority countries like Pakistan? You think that that Brazil is gonna go to war with us over Iran? Like how do you have so little understanding of how the world works and yet are in a position of like talking on air That, that like really got, I was like, what?

Simone Collins: I'm, you know, I, I imagine he has some, some people talking into his ear who have caused some.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, it's clear that, I mean, and, and this isn't like a conspiracy, everyone knows he has a lot of contacts within the Russian government. Sure. Iran's, Russia's ally. Of course he's gonna try to defend them, you know, reflexively because that's like where his bread's butter.

A lot of people are also really

Simone Collins: colored by the people they're hanging out with and talking to. So, yeah, I don't those people, he's gonna have a really dysmorphic understanding.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I, I don't think that this is like, his personality or any, I just think that, and this is why I call it like the gaze for Gaza thing, because like, it is one thing to say we shouldn't put boots on the ground, which I could not agree with more.

Totally. Yeah. It is another thing to say that we should do nothing to disarm them. Which

Simone Collins: is like, we were pretty much the, if I understand the only country that had the, no, we

Malcolm Collins: were the only country that had the B two bombers that could drop this type of bomb.

Simone Collins: Well, and, and we, you know, we, that that kind of what are they called?

Massive ordinance Something, something Mob bs the Bunker Busters.

Yeah.

We just also, we were wasting the pretty. We, we had, we've had those since 2004. We had never used them before.

Malcolm Collins: Rotting in a bunker. Right? I know. Just,

Simone Collins: yeah. Wasting the pretty, like I said, you know, it's like, you know, a beautiful girl in her twenties just sitting there waiting for, for the right day.

Okay.

Malcolm Collins: And keep in mind that we even I don't dunno if you heard this, but we even called Iran and told them we were gonna do this beforehand so that they could evacuate. That's so sweet. Well, that's

Simone Collins: good. Yeah, I was really wondering about that. I was like, I really hope no one was there. Well, they

Malcolm Collins: actually brought like a chain of cars and they might have evacuated some of the centrifuge materials, so people are really like pissed at them for this, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Because they're like, eh, you, you didn't really play game and we tried to be nice to you about this. Mm-hmm.

And I note here that Iran actually did the same favor for us when they did the retaliatory strike against our base and Qatar, uh, letting us know before they did the strike so that we could evacuate the parts of the facility that were going to be hit.

Speaker 3: Pretend we're having an argument.

You want to tell me why? I want the street to think that you and I are on the out.. what do you want me to do? I'm gonna poke you, poke me back. I'll poke you on day.

Malcolm Collins: But the point largely being is like. Look, if they actually do strike back in meaningful ways that draw us into the conflict, we were wrong. If they don't, then Trump was right. But don't pretend like I wanna protect Iran.

Why is Trump attacking Iran? Why is Israel attacking Iran? Like, we don't care that Israel is paying to attack Iran. Iran's a terrible place. The, the, the, and

Simone Collins: not to say like the US screwed up with Iran in the past 100%. Like there's no doubts there. I get why Iran

Malcolm Collins: doesn't, well, the thing that I really don't get is when people are like, oh, we've been through this before.

Like they might have weapons in mass destruction, some Middle Eastern country as an excuse for war. So one, this is not an excuse for putting boots on the ground. And two. This isn't the United States saying they might have weapons of mass destruction. So I, this is every single European power saying they might have weapons of mass destruct, listen, maybe uranium, independently

Simone Collins: refined to what?

Like 80, 88%, 90% is weapons grade. Like they, they were right there

Malcolm Collins: and independently saying no, but the point I'm making is this isn't like one intelligence agency saying this, this is every intelligence agency on saying this.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: This is despite how much France and the UK and, and you know, Germany hate Israel, all of them saying that they approve of this, like, while to get those three guys to agree that attacking somebody is a good thing.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: So like a lot of this is just like really false equivalencies. The, as as, as Michael put it, the point that somebody made a mistake like this once doesn't mean that every time in the future somebody says something like this, it's a mistake.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm. But anyway, let's get to today's episode.

Yeah.

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A Very Special Relationship (DCC30) [AUDIO]