In the insightful podcast episode featuring Joanna Hardis, author of "Just Do Nothing: A Paradoxical Guide to Getting Out of Your Way," listeners are treated to a deep dive into the concept of distress tolerance and its pivotal role in mental health and personal growth. Joanna Hardis, with her extensive background in treating anxiety disorders such as panic disorder, OCD, and Generalized Anxiety Disorder, shares her professional and personal journey toward understanding and teaching the art of effectively managing internal discomfort without resorting to avoidance or escape tactics.

The discussion begins with an exploration of the title of Joanna's book, "Just Do Nothing," which encapsulates the essence of her therapeutic approach: the intentional practice of stepping back and allowing thoughts, feelings, and sensations to exist without interference. This practice, though seemingly simple, challenges the common impulse to engage with and control our internal experiences, which often exacerbates suffering.

A significant portion of the conversation is dedicated to "distress intolerance," a term that describes the perceived inability to endure negative emotional states. This perception leads individuals to avoid or escape these feelings, thereby increasing vulnerability to a range of mental health issues including anxiety, depression, and substance abuse. Joanna emphasizes the importance of recognizing and altering the self-limiting beliefs and thoughts that fuel distress intolerance.

Practical strategies for enhancing distress tolerance are discussed, starting with simple exercises like resisting the urge to scratch an itch and gradually progressing to more challenging scenarios. This gradual approach helps individuals build confidence in their ability to manage discomfort and makes the concept of distress tolerance applicable to various aspects of life, from parenting to personal goals.

Mindfulness is highlighted as a crucial component of distress tolerance, fostering an awareness of our reactions to discomfort and enabling us to respond with intention rather than impulsivity. The podcast delves into the importance of connecting with our values and reasons for enduring discomfort, which can provide the motivation needed to face challenging situations.

Joanna and Kimberley also touch on the common traps of negative self-talk and judgment that can arise during distressing moments, advocating for a more compassionate and accepting stance towards oneself. The idea of "choice points" from Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) is introduced, encouraging listeners to make decisions that align with their values and move them forward, even in the face of discomfort.

The episode concludes with a message of hope and empowerment: everyone has the capacity to work on expanding their distress tolerance. By starting with small, manageable steps and gradually confronting more significant challenges, individuals can cultivate a robust ability to navigate life's inevitable discomforts with grace and resilience.

EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS:

The Concept of "Just Do Nothing":
- This core idea revolves around the practice of intentionally not engaging with every thought, feeling, or sensation, especially when they're distressing. It's about learning to observe without action, which can reduce the amplification of discomfort and suffering.
Understanding Distress Intolerance:
- Distress intolerance refers to the belief or perception that one cannot handle negative internal states, leading to avoidance or escape behaviors. This concept highlights the importance of recognizing and challenging these beliefs to improve our ability to cope with discomfort.
Building Distress Tolerance:
- The podcast discusses practical strategies to enhance distress tolerance, starting with simple exercises like resisting the urge to scratch an itch. The idea is to gradually expose oneself to discomfort in a controlled manner, thereby building resilience and confidence in handling distressing situations.
Mindfulness and Awareness:
- Mindfulness plays a crucial role in distress tolerance by fostering an awareness of our reactions to discomfort. This awareness allows us to respond intentionally rather than react impulsively. The practice of mindfulness helps in recognizing when we're "gripping" distressing thoughts or sensations and learning to gently release that grip.
Aligning Actions with Values:
- The podcast emphasizes the significance of connecting actions with personal values, even in the face of discomfort. This alignment can motivate us to face challenges and make choices that lead to personal growth and fulfillment, rather than making decisions based on the urge to avoid discomfort.

These concepts together form a comprehensive approach to managing distress and enhancing personal well-being, as discussed by Joanna Hardis in the podcast episode.

TRANSCRIPTION:

Kimberley: Welcome, everybody, today. We have Joanna Hardis. Joanna wrote an amazing book called Just Do Nothing: A Paradoxical Guide to Getting Out of Your Way. It was a solid gold read. Welcome, Joanna.

Joanna: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for reading it, too. I appreciate it.

Kimberley: It was a wonderful read and so on point, like science-backed. It was so good, so you should be so proud.

Joanna: Thank you.

Kimberley: Why did you choose the title Just Do Nothing?

Joanna: I mean, it’s super catchy, but more importantly than that, it is really what my work involves on a personal level and on a professional level—learning how to get out of my own way or our own way by leaving our thoughts alone, learning how to leave uncomfortable feelings alone, uncomfortable sensations alone, uncomfortable thoughts alone. Because that’s what creates the suffering—when we get so engaged in them.

Kimberley: Yeah. It’s such a hard lesson. I talk about this with patients all the time. But as I mentioned to you, even my therapist is constantly saying, “You’re going to have to just feel this one.” And my instinct is to go, “Nope. No thanks. There has to be another way.”

Joanna: A hundred percent. Yes. I mean, it really is something on a daily basis. I have to remind myself and work really hard to do.

Kimberley: It is. But it is such powerful work when you do it.

Joanna: Mm-hmm.

Kimberley: Early in the book, you talk about this term or this concept called ‘distress intolerance.’ Can you tell us what both of those are and give us some ideas on why this is an important topic?

Joanna: Sure, and this is what got me interested in the book and everything. Distress tolerance is a perception that you can handle negative internal states. And those internal states can be that you feel anxious, that you feel worried, you feel bored, vulnerable, ashamed, angry, sad, mad, off. There’s an A to Z alphabet of those unpleasant and uncomfortable emotional states. And when we have that perception that we can handle it, our behavior aligns, so we tend to do things.

When we are distress-intolerant, we have a perception—often incorrect—that we cannot handle negative internal states. So then we will either avoid them or escape them or try to figure them out or neutralize them or try to get rid of them, make them stop—all the things that we see in our work every day.

Before I had my practice in anxiety disorders, I worked over a decade in an eating disorder treatment center, and we know that when someone has really low distress tolerance, they are more vulnerable to developing eating disorders, anxiety disorders, depressive disorders, substance use disorders. So, it’s a really important concept.

Kimberley: It’s such an important concept. And you talk about how the thoughts we have which can determine that. Do you want to share a little bit about that? Because there was a whole chapter in the book about the thoughts you have about your ability to tolerate distress.

Joanna: Sure, and I didn’t answer the second part of your question., I just realized, which will tie into that, which is how it sounds. How it sounds is, “I can’t bear to feel this way, so I’m going to avoid that party,” or “I’m having too good of a day, so I can’t do my homework,” or “I can’t bear if my kids see me anxious, so we’re not going to go to the playground.”

And so, what drives someone’s perception are their thoughts and these thoughts and these self-limiting stories that we all have, and that oftentimes we just buy into as either true, or perhaps at one point, they may have been true, but we’ve outlived them.

Kimberley: Yeah. We’re talking about distress tolerance, and I’m always on the hunt to widen my distress tolerance to be able to tolerate higher levels of distress. And I think what’s interesting is, first, this is more of a question that I don’t know the science behind it, but do you think some people have higher levels of distress which makes them more intolerant, or do you think the intolerance which is what makes the distress feel so painful?

Joanna: I don’t know the research well enough to answer it. Because I think it’s rare that you see -- I mean, this is just one construct. So it’s very hard to isolate it from something like emotional sensitivity or anxiety sensitivity or intolerance for uncertainty, or something else that may be contributing to it.

Kimberley: Yeah. No, I know. It’s just a question I often think about, particularly when I’m with patients. And this is something that I think doesn’t really matter at the end of the day. What matters is—and maybe this will be a question for you—if our goal is to increase our distress tolerance, how might somebody even begin to navigate that?

Joanna: Sure. I love that question. I mean, in the book, I take it down to such a micro level, which is learning how—and I think you’ve talked about it on podcasts—itch serve. So, one of the exercises in the book is learning how you set your timer for five minutes and you get itchy, which of course is going to happen. And it’s learning how to ride out that urge to scratch the itch. So, paying attention to. If you zoom in on the itch, what happens? What happens when you zoom out? What else can you pay attention to?

And so when someone learns that process, that is on such a micro level. I often tell patients it’s like a one-pound weight.

Kimberley: Yes.

Joanna: And then what are some two-pound weights that people can use? So then, for many people, it’s their phone. So, it’s perhaps not checking notifications that come in right away. They begin to practice in low-distress situations because I want people to get confident that they know how to zoom in, they know how to zoom out. They know if they’re feeling a sensation, the more that they pay attention to it, the worse it’s going to feel. And so, where else can they put their awareness? What else can they be doing?

And once they get the hang of it, we introduce more and more distress. So then, it might be their phone, then it might be them intentionally calling up a thought. And we work up that way with adding in, very gradually, more distress or more discomfort. Exercise is a great way, especially if it’s not married to anxiety, to get people interacting with it differently.

Kimberley: Yeah. We use this all the time with anxiety disorders. It’s a different language because we talk about an ERP hierarchy, or your exposure menu, and so forth. But I love that in the book, it’s not just specific to that. It could be like you talked about. It’s for those who have depression. It’s those who have grief. It’s those who have eating disorders. It’s those who have anger. I will even say the concept of distress tolerance to me is so interesting because there’s so many areas of my life where I can practice it. Like my urgency to nag my kids another time to get out the door in time, and I have to catch like, “You don’t need to say it the third time.” Can you tolerate your own discomfort about the time it’s taking them to get out the door? And I think that when we have that attitudinal shift, it’s so helpful.

Joanna: Yes. I find parenting as one of the hardest places for me, but it was also a reminder like the more I keep my mouth shut, the better.

Kimberley: Yeah. And I think that’s really where I was talking before. I found parenting to be quite a triggering process as my kids have gotten older, but so many opportunities for my own personal growth using this exact scenario. Like your fear might come up, and instead of engaging in that fear, I’m actually just going to let it be there and feel it and parent according to my values or act according to my values. And I’ve truly found this to be such a valuable tool.

Joanna: Yes. And I have found what’s been really interesting, when my kids were at home, that was where my distress was. Now that the two of the three are out of the house, my distress is when we’re all together and everyone have a good time. And so, it morphs, because what I tell myself and my perception and the urgency, it changes. It’s still so difficult with them, but it changes based on what’s happening.

Kimberley: Yeah. And I think this is an opportunity for everyone, too. How much do you feel that awareness piece is important in being aware that you are triggered? For the folks listening, of course, you’re on the Your Anxiety Toolkit podcast. Most are listening because they have anxiety. Do you encourage them to be aware of other areas? They can be practicing this.

Joanna: Yes.

Kimberley: Can you talk to me about that?

Joanna: 100%, because I feel like -- what is that metaphor about the onion? It’s like the layers of an onion. So, people will come, and they’ll think it’s about their anxiety. But this is really about any uncomfortable feeling or uncomfortable sensation. And so. It may be that they’re bored or vulnerable or embarrassed or something else. So, once someone learns how to allow those feelings and do what is important to them or what they need to do while they feel it, then yes, I want them to go and notice where else in their life this is showing up.

Kimberley: Talk to me specifically about how in real-time, because I know that’s what listeners are going to ask.

Joanna: Of course.

Kimberley: I have this scary thing I want to be able to do, but I don’t want to do it because I’m scared, and I don’t want to feel scared. How might someone practice tolerating their distress in real-time?

Joanna: I’m going to answer two ways. One, I would say that might be something to scale. Sometimes people want to do the thing because doing the thing is like the goal or the sexy thing, but if it’s outside of their window of tolerance, they may not be able to do it. So, it depends on what they want to do. So, I might say, as just a preface, this might be something that people should consider scaling.

Kimberley: Gradual, you mean?

Joanna: Yes. So, for instance, they want to go to the gym, but they’re scared of fainting on the treadmill or something. Pretty common for what we see. It would be like, scale it back. So it might be going to the parking lot. It might be taking a tour. It might be going and standing on the treadmill. It might be walking on the treadmill. But we have to put it in smaller pieces.

In the moment that we’re doing something that is difficult, first, we have to notice if we’re starting to grip. I use this “if we’re starting to grip” something. If we’re starting to zoom in on what we don’t like, if we’re starting to zoom in on a sensation we don’t like, a thought we don’t like, a feeling we don’t like, I want people to notice that and you get better at noticing it faster.

The first thing is you got to notice it, that it’s happening, because that’s going to make it worse. So, you want to be able to notice it. You want to be able to loosen your grip on it. So, that might be finding out what else is going on in my surroundings. So, I’m on the treadmill, I’m walking maybe at a faster pace, and I’m noticing that my heart rate is going up, and I’m starting to zoom into that. What else am I noticing, or what else am I hearing? What else do I see? What else is going on around me? Can we make something else a louder voice?

And so, every time that my brain wants to go back to heart focus, it’s like, no, no. It’s taking it back to something else that’s going on. And it helps to connect with why is this important to do? So, as I’m continuing to say, “I’m okay. I am safe. I’m listening. I’m focusing on my music, and I’m looking out the window," This is really important to do because my health is important. My recovery is important. It becomes that you’re connecting to something that’s important, and the focus is not on what we don’t like because that’s going to make it bigger and stronger.

Kimberley: Right. As you’re doing that, as we’ve already mentioned, someone might be having those can’t thoughts, like I can’t handle it, even if it’s within their window of tolerance, right? It’s reasonable, and it’s an appropriate exposure. How might they manage this ongoing “You can’t do this, this is too hard, it’s too much, you can’t handle it” kind of thinking?

Joanna: I like “This may suck, and I can do it.”

Kimberley: It’s funny. I will tell you, it’s hilarious. In the very beginning of the book, you make some comments about the catchphrases and how you hate them, and so forth. I always laugh because we have a catchphrase over here, but it’s so similar to that in that we always talk about, like it’s a beautiful day to do hard things. And that seems to be so hopeful for people, but I do think sometimes we do get fed, like over positive ways. You have a negative thought, so we respond very positively, right? And so, I like “This is going to suck, and I’m going to do it anyway.”

Joanna: Yes. So you’re acknowledging this may suck, especially if you’re deconditioned, especially if you’re scared. It may suck AND—I always tell people not the BUT—AND I can do it. Even in 30-second increments. So, if someone is like, “I can’t, I cant,” I’ll say, “You can do anything for 30 seconds.” So then we pile on 30 seconds.

Kimberley: Yeah. And that’s such an important piece of it too, which is just taking a temporary mindset of we can just do this for a little tiny bit and then a little tiny bit and then a little tiny bit.

Joanna: Yes, I love that. I love that.

Kimberley: Why do we do this? What’s the draw? Sell me on why someone wants to do this work.

Joanna: To do...?

Kimberley: Distress tolerance. We talk about this all the time. Why do we want to widen our distress tolerance?

Joanna: Oh my goodness. Oh my gosh. I think once you realize all the little areas that may be impacting one’s life, it just blows your mind. But in a practical sense, people can stay stuck. When people are stuck. This is often a piece. It’s absolutely not the whole reason people are stuck, but this is such a piece of why people get stuck. And so I think for anyone that might feel stuck, perhaps they want a different job or they want to show up differently as a parent or they feel like they are people-pleasers, or they’re having trouble dating because they get super controlling. It can show up in any area of one’s life.

Kimberley: Yeah. For me, the selling point on why I want to do it is because it’s like a muscle—if I don’t continue to grow this muscle, everything feels more and more scary.

Joanna: Oh, sure. Yeah, hundred percent.

Kimberley: The more I go into this mindset of “You can’t handle it and it’s too much, it’s too scary” things start to feel more scary. The world starts to feel more unsafe, whereas that attitude shift, there’s a self-trust that comes with it for me. I trust that I can handle things. Whereas if I’m in the mindset of “I can’t,” I have no self-trust. I don’t trust that I can handle scary things, and then I’m constantly hypervigilant, thinking when the next scary thing's going to happen.

Joanna: Right. Another reason to also practice doing it, if you never challenge it, you don’t get the learning that you can do it.

Kimberley: Yeah. There’s such empowerment with this work.

Joanna: Yes. And you don’t have to do big, scary things. You don’t have to jump out of an airplane to do it or pose naked, because I see that on Instagram now, people who are conquering their fears by doing these. Very Instagram-worthy tasks, which could be very scary. We can do it, just like you say, with not nagging our kids, by choosing what I want to make for dinner versus making so many dinners because I am so scared that I can’t handle it if my kids are upset with me.

Kimberley: Right. And for those who have anxiety, I think from the work I do with my patients is this idea of being uncertain feels intolerable. That feeling. You’re talking about these real-life examples. And for those who are listening with anxiety, I get it. That feeling of uncertainty feels intolerable, but again, that idea of widening your tolerance or increasing your ability to tolerate it in 10-second increments can stop you from engaging in compulsions that can make your disorder worse or avoiding which can make your disorder worse. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Joanna: I 100% agree with you. I always say, let’s demote intolerable to uncomfortable. Because I feel sometimes like I have to know I can’t stand it, I’m crawling out of my skin. But if I’m then able to get some distance from it, that’s the urgency of anxiety.

Kimberley: Yeah. It’s such beautiful work.

Joanna: Yes, and especially the more people do, they’re able to say, “You know what? I can do things.” It may feel intolerable. That diffusion, it may feel intolerable. It’s probably uncomfortable. So, what is the smallest next step I can take in this situation to do what I need to do and not make it worse? That’s a big thing of mine—not making a situation worse.

Kimberley: Yes. And that’s where the do-nothing comes in.

Joanna: Yes. That’s the paradoxical part.

Kimberley: Yeah. Is there any area of this that you feel like we haven’t covered that’s important to you, that would be an important piece of this work that someone may consider as they’re doing this work on their own?

Joanna: I think and I know that you are a big proponent of this too. I think it’s very hard to do this work without some mindful awareness practice. And I talk about it in the book. It’s just such an enhancer. It enhances treatment, but it also enhances our daily life. So, I can’t say strongly enough that it is so important for us to be able to notice this pattern when we are saying, “Oh my gosh, I can’t take this,” or “I can’t do this.” And then the behavior and to think about what’s the function of me avoiding. But if we’re going so fast and our gas pedal is always to the floor, we don’t have the opportunity to notice.

Kimberley: Yeah, the mindfulness piece is so huge. And even, like you’re saying, the mindfulness piece of the awareness but also the non-judgment in mindfulness. As you’re doing the hard thing, as you’re tolerating distress, you’re not sitting there going, “This sucks and I hate it.” I mean, you’re saying like it will suck, and that's, I think, validating. It validates you, but not staying in “This is the worst, and I hate it, and I shouldn’t be here.” That’s when that suffering does really show up.

Joanna: Yes. The situation may suck. It doesn’t mean I suck. That was a hard lesson to learn. The situation may, but I don’t have to pour gas on it by saying, “How long is it going to last? Oh my gosh, this feeling’s never going to end. Do I still feel it? Oh my gosh, do I still feel it as much?” All the things that I’m prone to do or my clients are prone to do that extend the suffering.

Kimberley: Make it worse.

Joanna: Yeah, exactly.

Kimberley: It’s a great question, actually. And I often will talk with my patients about it, in the moment, when they’re in distress. Sometimes writing it down, like what can we do that would make this worse? What can we do that will make this better? And sometimes that is doing nothing at all. And you do talk about that in the book.

Joanna: Yeah.

Kimberley: The forward and the backward.

Joanna: The choice points. Yes.

Kimberley: Can you share just a little bit about that?

Joanna: It’s a concept from ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy) that says, when we have a behavior, a behavior can either move us toward or forward what’s meaningful in our values or can move us away from it. And so, as we’re thinking about doing whatever the hard thing maybe or it may not even be a hard thing; it just may be something you don’t want to do. Thinking about what your why is, what’s the forward move? Why is it meaningful to you? What do you stand to get? What’s on the other side? Because most of us are well versed, and if we give in, that’s an away move. And we have to be able to do this non-judgmentally because some days it’s just not in us, and that’s totally fine. But I want people to be honest with themselves and non-judgmental about whatever decisions they make. But it does help to have a reason that moves us forward.

Kimberley: Absolutely. I think that’s such an important piece of the work. Again, that’s the selling point of why we would want to be uncomfortable. There’s a goal or a why that gets us there.

Joanna: Yeah. And it’s amazing how much pain we will put up with. I mean, think about all the things people like—waxing and some of these exercise classes. It’s amazing because it’s important to someone.

Kimberley: Exactly. And I think that’s a great point too, which is we do tolerate distress every day when we really are clear on what we want. And I think sometimes we have these things like I can’t handle it, but you might even ask like, what are some harder things that I’ve actually tolerated in my lifetime?

Joanna: Yes, exactly because there’s a lot of things you’re so right that we do that are uncomfortable, but it’s worth it because, for whatever reason, it’s worth it.

Kimberley: Yeah, I love this. I have loved chatting with you. I know I’ve asked you this already, but is there any final words you want to share before we learn more about you and where people can get in touch with you?

Joanna: I just want people to know that anybody can do this. It may be that it’s just creating the right scale—a small enough step forward—but anybody can work on this. There are so many areas and ways in which we can strengthen this muscle. And so there is hope. No one is broken. It may be that people just don’t know the next best move.

Kimberley: I love that. Thank you. Where can people hear more about you and get in touch with you?

Joanna: My website is JoannaHardis.com and my Instagram is the same thing, @JoannaHardis. And excitingly, the book just came out in audio yesterday.

Kimberley: Congratulations.

Joanna: Thank you. Thank you.

Kimberley: That’s wonderful. And we can get the book wherever books are sold.

Joanna: Wherever books are sold, yes.

Kimberley: I really do encourage people to buy it. I think it’s a book you could pick up and read once a year, and I think that there’s messages. You know what I’m saying? There are some books where you could just revisit and take something from, so I would really encourage people to buy the book and just dabble in the many concepts that you share.

Joanna: Wonderful. Thank you.

Kimberley: Yeah. Thank you so much for being on the show. This is such a concept and a topic that I’m really passionate about, and for myself too. I think it’s something I’ll be working on until I’m 99, I think.

Joanna: Me too. I’m with you right there.

Kimberley: There’s always an opportunity where I’m like, “Oh okay. There’s another opportunity for me to grow. All right, let’s get on board. Let’s go back to the school.” So, I think it’s really wonderful. Thank you so much for being here.

Joanna: Thank you so much for having me.

E02: Metadata Architecture w/ Shirshanka Das