196. Unconscious Group Dynamics and the Psychology of Scapegoating with Brant Elwood

Social psychology expert Brant Elwood joins me to explore the fascinating and often troubling world of unconscious group dynamics. Brant brings a unique perspective, having spent four years as a field guide in wilderness therapy—accumulating over 10,000 hours working with small groups—before transitioning into organizational psychology and leadership consulting.

We dive deep into the phenomenon of scapegoating: why groups unconsciously select certain members to carry their collective anxiety, how the scapegoat often cooperates with this unspoken contract, and what happens when that person leaves. Brant shares compelling examples from Tavistock group relations conferences and primate research to illustrate how these dynamics play out across species.

I also share my own experience of being scapegoated in a T-group during grad school, and we explore how our childhood wounds create "Velcro" for these projections to stick. We discuss the role of humor as a potential escape route, what healthy leadership looks like, and why some organizations become addicted to crisis. The conversation takes a meaningful turn toward Nathaniel Brandon's work on self-esteem—what it truly means beyond the smarmy 90s version—and how a leader's unintegrated material gets amplified throughout an organization. This episode offers valuable insights for anyone navigating workplace dynamics or seeking to understand group psychology.

Brant Elwood has a MA in Social-Organizational Psychology from Columbia University. He has held consulting roles and leadership positions within several therapeutic treatment organizations. During the pandemic, he directed a non-profit that utilized myth and archetypal theory to conduct rites of passage work with young men in the southeast US. Brant draws from the mythopoetic lineage of Robert Bly, Robert Johnson, and others in an attempt to establish a novel style of thinking about groups in communities and organizations. He first attended a Tavistock-style group relations conference in 2015. Follow him on X @thegrouplens. Find his book on Amazon: Gods, Heroes, and Groups: Relational Dynamics Through Mythic Archetypes.

[00:00:00] Start
[00:00:38] Introduction to Brant Elwood
[00:01:40] Background in Wilderness Therapy
[00:04:01] Tavistock Group Relations Conferences
[00:15:59] The Psychology of Scapegoating
[00:28:19] Projective Identification and Personal Wounds
[00:40:47] Qualities of Healthy Organizations
[00:45:30] Toxic Workplace Dynamics Case Study
[00:54:21] Nathaniel Brandon's Self-Esteem Framework
[01:09:00] Christian Perspective on Self-Worth
[01:15:45] Crisis of Faith in Therapy Field
[01:17:29] Where to Find Brant and His Book

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