KOL457 | Sheldon Richman & IP; Andre from Brazil re Contract Theory, Student Loan Interest Payments, Bankruptcy, Vagueness, Usury

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast: Episode 457. I had been meaning to talk to my old friend Sheldon Richman, of the Libertarian Institute and TGIF column, about his own IP Odyssey, as he's always been great on this issue, (( My IP Odyssey; as quoted in “Your failed business model is not my problem”; Sheldon Richman, “Patent Nonsense," IP Debate Breaks Out at FEE. Others, e.g. Richman, The Articles of Confederation Versus the Constitution. )) and many others. At the same time I had been talking to André Simoni of Brazil about some questions he had about applying my/Rothbard's title-transfer contract theory to some questions he had about interest payments on student loans and other contracts, usury, and so on. I had thought of talking to André and Sheldon separately but decided to combine them, partly because I confused André's topic with a discussion I had also been having at the same time with Galambosian Brian Gladish about IP and Galambos. (( On Galambos, see the following. On Gladish, see the next note. Galambos and Other Nuts; The Galambosians strike back; “Around this time I met the Galambosian.”; Was Galambos an IP Thief?; Galambos the Crank; Shades of Galambos: Man tries to copyright his name; Rothbard and Galambosians. )) Libertopia, San Diego, Oct. 11, 2012: Anthony Gregory, Kinsella, Roderick Long, Sheldon Richman. See KOL238 | Libertopia 2012 IP Panel with Charles Johnson and Butler Shaffer; KOL237 | Intellectual Nonsense: Fallacious Arguments for IP—Part 2 (Libertopia 2012); KOL236 | Intellectual Nonsense: Fallacious Arguments for IP (Libertopia 2012) Sheldon and I talked first about IP and other topics, and then to André about contract theory, which Sheldon jumped in on anyway. (I may talk to Gladish later about Galambos and IP.) (( Gladish on Galambos at ASC; his comments at: Have You Changed Your Mind About Intellectual Property?; Galambos and Other Nuts; Mises on Intellectual Property; Why Objectivists Hate Anarchy (Hint: IP). )) We touched on a number of topics; see the summary of our discussion points by Grok: [00:00:02 - 00:20:44] Stephan Kinsella hosts Sheldon Richman, executive editor of the Libertarian Institute, to discuss Richman’s libertarian journey and his opposition to intellectual property (IP). Richman traces his ideological roots to the 1964 Goldwater campaign, Ayn Rand, and Murray Rothbard, emphasizing his rejection of IP as incompatible with liberty due to its monopolistic nature. He critiques the notion that creation alone justifies ownership, advocating for property rights based on prior ownership of tangible inputs. The conversation highlights Richman’s classical liberal stance, his defense of corporations as efficient market entities, and his nuanced view on libertarian labels, favoring a broad, non-tribal approach to radical liberalism. [00:20:45 - 01:33:05] The discussion shifts to Andre from Brazil, who joins to explore the title-transfer theory of contract, focusing on its application to student loans, interest payments, usury, and bankruptcy. Kinsella explains that contracts involve title transfers, not enforceable promises, and addresses Andre’s concerns about vague contract terms and usury laws, arguing they often protect entrenched interests. On bankruptcy, Kinsella notes his evolving view, influenced by inalienability concepts, suggesting that extreme debt obligations resembling slavery might justify limited bankruptcy protections in a free society, as discussed in his recent blog post. Richman contributes insights on contracts, reinforcing the need for clear title transfers, while the trio debates the moral and legal implications of debt and societal expectations in libertarian frameworks. Transcript and detailed Grok shownotes below. https://youtu.be/7vrIz8cv2Bw Of relevance: Stephan Kinsella, “The Title-Transfer Theory of Contract,” Papinian Press Working Paper #1 (Sep. 7, 2024) Napolitano on Health-Care Reform and the Constitution: Is the Commerce Clause Really Limited?  and On Constitutional Sentimentalism (re Richman's point about the interstate commerce clause); see also his comments about federal tax power in Randy Barnett’s “Federalism Amendment”–A Counterproposal; and related posts The Walmart Question, or, the Unsupported Assertions of Left-Libertarianism Ep. 382 Sheldon Richman Says Corporate Isn’t a Dirty Word, Bob Murphy Show Four questions for “anti-capitalist” libertarians (Carpio)/Is Capitalism Something Good? (Richman) (2010) Left-Libertarians Admit Opposition to “Capitalism” is Substantive Capitalism, Socialism, and Libertarianism Should Libertarians Oppose “Capitalism”? Richman: Leave the “Left” Behind? Doug French, Walk Away: The Rise and Fall of the Home-Ownership Myth On libertarians who support voluntary slavery contracts: Block, Nozick, Casey: “A Tour Through Walter Block’s Oeuvre”; KOL442 | Together Strong Debate vs. Walter Block on Voluntary Slavery (Matthew Sands of Nations of Sanity) Detailed Segment Summary [00:00:02 - 00:09:14] Introduction and Richman’s Libertarian Background Kinsella introduces the podcast, noting his intent to discuss IP with Richman and contract theory with Andre. Richman, executive editor of the Libertarian Institute, shares his “TGIF” column history and his libertarian evolution from the 1964 Goldwater campaign to influences like Rand and Rothbard. He rejects the “left-libertarian” label, favoring classical liberalism, and defends corporations as efficient, per Robert Hessen’s work, against anti-capitalist critiques. [00:09:15 - 00:20:44] Intellectual Property and Liberty Richman opposes IP, arguing it creates state-enforced monopolies incompatible with liberty, citing Jefferson’s view that ideas are non-scarce and not ownable. He challenges the idea that creation justifies ownership, asserting that property rights stem from prior ownership of tangible inputs, not the act of invention. Kinsella and Richman discuss the growing libertarian skepticism toward IP, noting support from institutions like the Mises Institute and Mercatus Center. [00:20:45 - 00:36:27] Transition to Contract Theory with Andre Andre joins to discuss the title-transfer theory, asking about its application to student loans and interest payments. Kinsella explains that contracts are about transferring property titles, not enforcing promises, and clarifies that vague terms don’t inherently invalidate contracts if intent is clear. Richman emphasizes that libertarian contracts require explicit title transfers, distinguishing them from traditional legal expectations. [00:36:28 - 00:52:16] Interest, Usury, and Contractual Obligations Andre raises concerns about usury laws and high interest rates, particularly in Brazil’s regulated banking system. Kinsella argues that usury laws often protect banks, not borrowers, and that interest rates should be market-driven, reflecting risk and time preference. The discussion touches on fractional reserve banking, with Kinsella noting its complexity but defending voluntary contracts, even with high interest, as long as titles are clear. [00:52:17 - 01:08:22] Bankruptcy and Inalienability Andre asks about bankruptcy, prompting Kinsella to share his evolving view, influenced by inalienability, that extreme debt obligations could equate to slavery, justifying limited bankruptcy protections. Kinsella references his blog post, noting comments from readers like “LibertarianThinker” and “FreeMarketAdvocate” that highlight tensions between debt obligations and personal autonomy, reinforcing his stance that inalienability might limit enforceable title transfers. Richman agrees that contracts must respect individual autonomy, cautioning against terms that effectively enslave debtors. [01:08:23 - 01:33:05] Societal Norms and Future Directions The trio discusses how societal expectations shape contract enforcement, with Andre noting Brazil’s cultural reliance on legal recourse. Kinsella suggests that a free society would rely on reputation and market mechanisms, not state coercion, to enforce contracts. They conclude with reflections on the title-transfer theory’s underexplored potential, with Kinsella encouraging Andre to contribute to its development, and Richman advocating for broader libertarian discourse on these issues. Concise Grok summary using the transcript (below): Here’s a concise summary of the "Interview by Stephan Kinsella of Sheldon Richman and Andre from Brazil" in about 7 bullet points with time markers: 0:02 - 2:11: Stephan Kinsella introduces the podcast ("Kinsella on Liberty 457") to catch up with Sheldon Richman, executive editor of the Libertarian Institute, about his libertarian history and IP views. Sheldon writes "TGIF" weekly, rooted in his Freeman editorship (late 1990s-~2012-13). 2:19 - 9:14: Sheldon, officially retired but freelancing, rejects "left-libertarian" as a tribal label (early 2000s usage), favoring classical liberalism. He defends corporations (Corporate Is Not a Four-Letter Word) against anti-capitalist critiques, citing efficiency (per Robert Hessen). 9:52 - 20:44: Sheldon traces his libertarianism to Goldwater (1964) and college (1967-68), via Rand, Rothbard, and Mises. Stephan notes early movement’s pro-IP stance (Rand-influenced), shifting with Palmer (1989) and others. Sheldon recalls no anti-IP views until Palmer and Fred Smith. 20:50 - 36:01: Andre from Brazil joins, a libertarian since 2011-12, popularizing Hoppean ethics. Stephan and Sheldon debate IP: Stephan likens defamation to IP (reputation rights), opposing it; Sheldon questions malicious lies’ harm but leans anti-IP (Rothbard-influenced).