The One Where We Geek Out on Java with Ix-chel Ruiz of Karakun

Dec 3, 2024

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About our guest:

Ix-chel Ruiz has been developing software applications and tools since 2000. Her technical research interests include server side languages like Java, dynamic languages, client-side technologies, testing, automation and observability. Her humanities research interests include personal, professional and organisational development and transformation. Java Champion, Oracle ACE pro, Testcontainers Community Champion, CDF Ambassador, Hackergarten enthusiast, Open Source advocate, public speaker and mentor.

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All of our social channels are on bento.me/geekingout
All of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillela

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Ix-chel's upcoming conferences/un-conferences: JNation, MAD Summit, DevBcn, JCrete

Transcript:
ADRIANA: Hey, fellow geeks. Welcome to Geeking Out, the podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery, DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host, Adriana Villela, coming to you from Toronto, Canada. And geeking out with me today, I have Ix-chel Ruiz. Welcome, Ix-chel!

IX-CHEL: Thank you for having me. Thank you.

ADRIANA: I'm very excited to have you on and tell folks where you're calling from and where you work.

IX-CHEL: Okay, so I'm calling from Basel, Switzerland, and I work in Karakun. We are small consultancy company here in Switzerland and we also have offices in Germany and India, in several other places around the world. But we're still very, very small. And I still love that.

ADRIANA: That's awesome. Yeah, I love small consulting companies because I feel like the projects are a lot more interesting that way too.

IX-CHEL: Yes. It allows a closer relationship with the people that you work with, the teams that you work, and your clients. So it's. You are there to help them figure out something. And sometimes it's. It's actually systems and sometimes it's a totally different thing.

ADRIANA: It's so true. That's so true. I. So I did consulting early in my career, but I worked at Accenture for four years, so I feel like. So I have the, like the big corporate consulting experience, which was. It was very interesting. It was very challenging. It led to early burnout. But I. I do admire, like, the smaller consultancies and I have a couple of friends who work at smaller consultancies and. And they quite like it. So.

IX-CHEL: I joined that club.

ADRIANA: Awesome. Awesome. Well, before we get started with the meaty bits, I'm going to get you started with some lightning round questions. Lightning round slash icebreaker. We'll see how if they go fast or slow. It's all good either way. Okay, first question. Are you a lefty or a righty?

IX-CHEL: I use both.

ADRIANA: That's awesome. I love that. Okay, do you prefer iPhone or Android?

IX-CHEL: I have to say that I have an iPhone. And at the beginning I had Dell machines, but then at work several years ago, they gave me a Mac and from there on, like, having Mac devices made life easier because everything was synchronized. So now I have four of my own devices. Apple

ADRIANA: Oh, you just answered my next question. If it was Mac, Linux or Windows. That's awesome. Yeah, it's funny you mentioned that because I think, like, when I got my first iPhone, I was still on a Windows machine and I'm like, oh, my God, what is this nightmarish crap? And then, and then I got like an Apple. Like, I got a Mac with my iPhone and I already had an iPhone. I'm like, magic.

IX-CHEL: Yes. Easy to use. Compatibility, consistency goes along the, like, a long way.

ADRIANA: I completely agree. Yeah, I mean, that, that, that's why I'm part of the Mac cult. I like that everything plays nice together.

IX-CHEL: Exactly.

ADRIANA: Awesome. What is your favorite programming language?

IX-CHEL: Java. I have to say Java, but in between. I mean, at this moment in time, you cannot say that you only love one language because you end up using a lot. So you're a polyglot by almost by definition. So I love Java, but I also like other languages. My second great love is Groovy because at that time, yes, at that time it gave me everything, like, less ceremony, more the dynamic part. So it was. And you could create magic in so little lines of code. So, yes. So Java, Groovy. I also have done a little bit of Go and many of JavaScript, obviously. Obviously. Full Stack developer.

ADRIANA: That's cool. You know, I think you're the first person I've met who's liked Groovy. And, you know, I messed around with Groovy for a bit as well. Like when I first started getting into Jenkins and I wanted to do some more customization stuff. And I remember, like, other people dissing Groovy, but I'm like, but this is like less verbose Java because I was a Java developer for like 15 years and I'm like, this is less verbose Java. This is like super freaking cool. And I'm like, why are people, like, harping on Groovy?

IX-CHEL: No, no, I mean, honestly, I remember. I remember my first session, it was in one Java one. And then this. The speaker was showing how to, for example, open Excel and do crazy stuff all programmatically, all from the Groovy console. And it was so easy. And I was like, oh, my God, I need that. I mean, because I'm coming from the, from the Ubuntu, like, shell and the command line interface, it's my life. So suddenly, like command line interface, but for applications that usually you're like, oh, my God, how many clicks do I have to do here to make things work? So suddenly, no clicks involved, and you were doing something incredible, and I fell in love. The funny part of that story is that my husband entered Groovy first and he was like, I have been trying to convince you of try Groovy. And you got convinced by that speaker and not by me.

ADRIANA: It's always the ones closest to us that we don't want to listen to. It's like, yeah, for sure. They know what they're talking about. That's great. I love that. Oh, yeah, sorry, go ahead.

IX-CHEL: Sorry. It's because. It's because we got into this. I'm hosting one of the core contributors of Groovy in the Basal JUG next month is Jochen Theodorou. He is part of the PMC of Groovy. He has been working on the internals on the compiler. I mean, I still very close to Groovy in my heart and with the people that I work with.

ADRIANA: Oh, that's so awesome. That's so great. Yeah, it's funny because you don't hear too much about Groovy, and I'm very. I'm very pleased to hear that there. It's still like a very thriving community.

IX-CHEL: Yes.

ADRIANA: Awesome. All right, next question. Do you prefer Dev or Ops?

IX-CHEL: Okay. As I told you, I started with Ubuntu when I was in high school. Like, honestly, I received. I actually was not Ubuntu. Ubuntu was very sophisticated years later. I started with the distribution in a CD-ROM, when you had to go to university to have people. And that time it was the. The university, the main university of Mexico, and they will burn you a CD-ROM and give it to you. That's how you distributed Linux at that time. So I hear. I'm dating myself.

ADRIANA: Like, oh, my God. Yes, yes, yes.

IX-CHEL: I totally.

ADRIANA: Yes, I'm with you there. CD-ROM days.

IX-CHEL: Oh, my God. So CLI, Ops and making to everything, Automate and scripts and everything. That's where I started. That's what pulled me into computers. But then I'm a developer, so you're asking me. For me, there is no separation because probably that's because of my background. So I cannot answer that question. Honestly.

ADRIANA: You know what? I love your answer. And it's funny because I was having a similar discussion with people on this because I like, for me, the thing that attracted me to, like, the whole DevOps movement was the, like, oh, my God, I can use, Like, I like the hardware aspect of it. Like, I like infrastructure, it's cool. But I like coding. And I'm like, oh, you're telling me now I can, like, merge both of them. And the other aspect of it too is, like, as a software engineer, I think, like, for me personally, I think it's shocking when, like, you ask, you ask other software engineers, like, how to build, like, a Docker image of their code, and they're like, I don't know. That's what the DevOps engineer does. And I'm like, In my mind, I find that confusing because for me, DevOps was always meant to be like, no, we're supposed to know how to do this stuff. And now you're telling me that you're like leaving it to someone else, like you've inserted another layer of person to do a thing for you. And I'm like, shouldn't, shouldn't you be like remotely curious as to like how, how you build like the images you're going to deploy?

IX-CHEL: I'm so with you there and let me paint you this image. And I think you are going to be a little bit scared, as I did when somebody make me realize that. He said, have you realized that now most of the people interact with their phones, that is their main interaction with a device. And have you realized that they don't even know how to organize or comprehend the concept of directories and files?

ADRIANA: Oh my God, so true.

IX-CHEL: So because I was telling him that I joined into one of these edX courses about data because I wanted to learn more about managing data, acquiring data and everything like that. And I was, I was complaining a little bit because I told him like the first five sessions it was about how to structure data in directories, like how in the hierarchy. And it was like, do we really need three sessions for this? And when he turns around and he said, like, Ix-chel, do you realize that there is a lot of people, the majority of people that do need this kind of introduction and even more because before we have computers, like most of people had to go to the computers, drag and drop files, create the structure of the directories. And now our main interface is going to be the phone, which doesn't like, obscures all that. So I think we're going getting more tech savvy in some things, but forgetting the fundamentals because they don't realize that there's an operating system, that you need files, that they are organized, that there's a meaning. So it is kind of scary for me.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I completely agree with you. And I experienced this firsthand with my daughter. So my daughter is turning 16 this year. And so first two kind of funny stories. One, so her first, I guess computer was like an iPad or iPhone. And when, when we put her in front of an actual laptop, she started trying to touch the screen and I'm like, oh my God, of course she would. Because like that's, that's her interaction with, with computers. That's, that's what she thinks, how she thinks they work. And then secondly, once she started using a computer more regularly for school like for assignments and stuff. She had no concept of directories as well. And so my husband, who's also in tech, my husband and I had to be like, okay, this is how you organize your documents. This is where you're going to want to put your stuff so that you know, you don't have like your, your stuff for like chemistry in the same place as your stuff for English, for example. And it was just like, for me, like, it. I'm like, oh, of course that wouldn't make sense to her because she's never been exposed to it. But for us, it's like, we grew up with this. Of course it's obvious that you need a directory structure, so. Yeah, it's so wild.

IX-CHEL: Yes, yes. I'm really interested in how we're evolving in that regard.

ADRIANA: Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what other side effects there are going to be. And it's funny because I even find myself like, I'm too lazy sometimes to do stuff on my laptop, which would be like 50 times easier because I'm like, my phone's here with me. I, I don't want to get up and go into the next room, grab my laptop to do whatever. Let's see what I can do on my phone. But then you get my dad who's like, why the hell would you want to do this on your phone? Like, you've got like a perfectly good computer, like it's a bigger screen. And for me I'm like, that's just too inconvenient.

IX-CHEL: I totally understand that one.

ADRIANA: Yeah. Okay, next question. This might be difficult to choose again. Do you prefer JSON or YAML?

IX-CHEL: Okay, well, it's not so difficult because honestly, meaningful indentation. I don't like when it's difficult for people to realize that there is a mistake.

ADRIANA: Yes.

IX-CHEL: I mean, linters and validators are getting better, but it is like setting yourself for failure. And this is something I keep telling people. Like, why do we design either formats, tools that are not helping the users to realize best practices and mistakes easier, or why do you make it so easy for people to fail and miserably fail?

ADRIANA: Yeah, fair enough.

IX-CHEL: So JSON is not the best thing ever either. In the other way, because the format was also very limited, but it allows better this. It doesn't set yourself for failure so easy. Still not the best format either.

ADRIANA: But I, I agree it's more forgiving. YAML. YAML is very unforgiving. I, I like YAML because I think it's cleaner to read. I find there's like too many curly braces in, in JSON, it makes my head go boom. But I, I do agree with you. I think JSON is definitely more forgiving. All right, next question. Do you prefer spaces or tabs.

IX-CHEL: You know, I'm going to tell the story there. I have heard everything under the sun in terms of like, you code like a girl. This formatting, it's so weird. I prefer tabs, I prefer spaces. If you don't put the spaces between parentheses or like. There are several arguments and some of them are really interesting. I, for example, with people with dyslexia space, if you leave a space between the parentheses, it's going to be easier for them because it reads better. Yeah, but then I love the solution of Go and Go. The people that design go, they agree that they will going to disagree on where we're going to be the best practices or so they created the form, you run that formatter and every single piece of code looks exactly the same. There is consistency. So they didn't agree on we should do this or we should do that, but they agree on having consistency. So I'm missing that from other languages. So honestly, at some point we should say I don't care, but let's agree on something even if we agree on disagreeing and then we try to create the least chaos in the world.

ADRIANA: Yeah, and that's a really good point with, with the Go formatting because that, that's definitely one thing that I appreciate. Like I, I did, I spent a few years doing Python and the thing with Python is that I think compared to Java, I feel like there's like so many different ways to format your Python code, irritatingly so, and I'm very particular about how, how I format it but, and, and of course people have their own way of doing it. But then, but then like if, if we both, you know, commit our code into the repo with our different ways of formatting, it's like, you hate how I formatted. I hate, hate how you formatted. So the go away, as you said, is nice because it's like, yeah, do it your way, but when you save the file, it's going to get formatted the way I like it. So.

IX-CHEL: Ha, ha ha. Exactly, exactly. These discussions are meaningless. So, and then you focus on other things and, and actually it helps you because you find partners faster. If everything looks the same, whatever thing that it's different, it will caught your eye and, and sometimes that's exactly what we need when we are reading code. So I, I will answer. I would, I will hope that we have that consistency and even if I hate it, I will still adopt it because. Sake of sanity and consistency.

ADRIANA: Yes, I totally agree. We need, we need more like automatic formatting with Go in other languages. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, two more questions left. Do you prefer to consume content through video or text?

IX-CHEL: Depending on the content. But I think I love video. It. It has more, more levels of communication obviously. But sometimes when I really need to focus on the content, then it is better for me audio only.

ADRIANA: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I agree. I, I'll. I've told people this before that like send me a YouTube video. I probably won't watch it, but like I will put it on. Like I'll leave my phone on my table with my AirPods on while I'm like doing errands and I'll listen to the video and then, but then if there's a visual component, be like, crap, where are you? But I, I like it because I can just, you know, do mindless things and listen and be more attentive towards it rather than sitting and watching.

IX-CHEL: Exactly, exactly. Because then you, you can focus. Like honestly focus.

ADRIANA: Exactly. Exactly. Cool. Okay, final question. What is your superpower?

IX-CHEL: Good question. I, I keep telling people that one of my advantages is that I can articulate things in, in a different way. And I always telling people that telling a story is really important. And I think that is something that I appreciate about myself.

ADRIANA: I love it. I love it. Yeah. And I think people, people respond well to stories. It's easier for them to remember the stuff that you're saying when you have a cool story to go with it. Right. Rather than some like blah, blah, blah, blah that no one's gonna.

IX-CHEL: Yeah, I mean, well, I, I like to listen a lot of information. I like to research a lot about human behavior. And for example, that when you tell a story, our brain waves start to synchronize better with the speaker. And we also, because we are kind of guessing what is coming next because we all have this innate idea of what a story looks like. Like the intro, the main part where there is conflict, there may be conflict resolution and then the conclusion. So everybody's have this idea of a story. So they are trying to kind of guess what is happening. So their focus is going to be more into your words. So whatever you are telling them at that moment, it will be well received. Better received that it's only a statement.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, that's such a great point. And I love that so much. And I think, and I think also like it's such a powerful tool. Especially like when you're giving a talk at a conference. Because like, I don't know about you, but like I have, I have difficulty sitting. I don't know how I made it through university. I have difficulty sitting through and like watching, watching people give a talk, unless it's like a fun talk with a fun story and then you're like, oh my God, yes, as you said, it's like, what are they going to say next? Because this is really like, this is really cool. It's flowing in a, in a really like logical way. Right.

IX-CHEL: Oh, in my last conference I was in Codemotion Madrid last week actually. And in many conferences there's. They are adding this kind of like community space and like a kind of a non conference. So in many conferences they're putting like lightning talks. Like you go and write your name and talk about five minutes about any topic and you can prepare your slides or you cannot prepare a slide, whatever. And for the last two conferences I have done it. I have gone and write my name in a lightning talk and the topic that I really. Because now I really think that it's super important for everybody, for everybody is storytelling.

ADRIANA: Yes.

IX-CHEL: And so I go there. I haven't written or put a slide deck because I want it to be spontaneous. I want to. And it's also a way for me to improve because I want to react to the audience. So the last time in Codemotion I had a full room and it was. They received very well my, my session. But honestly, the feedback of the people that were in the lighting talks, it was much, much better. Like people were like, oh my God, Ix-chel, I really, really enjoyed your...So, storytelling. It's, I think the superpower that we all need to, if not master, at least be mindful that it could be ours.

ADRIANA: Yes, I love that. I'm super down for that. All right, well, you survived the lightning round questions.

IX-CHEL: Yay.

ADRIANA: Congrats. So now let's get into the meaty bits. And I think, you know, before, before we started recording, you were telling me that like, you know, you have done various things throughout your career. So first off, like, you know, how, how did you get started in tech? Like, tell me about your tech journey.

IX-CHEL: Well, as I said, I live in Switzerland, but I also mentioned Mexico because I mentioned the university that I went to get my CD with the first versions of Linux. Well, okay, yes. So I'm from Mexico and at that time, and I was still in high school, but in my high school we shared the buildings with the University. And they had this cool, cool computer lab and I wanted to work there, but I'm still a high school student, so I went through a lot of hoops and I ended up, at that time it was Irix machines. Like it was super big machines and it was amazing. So that's what pulled me from a very, very young age into working with Unix at that time.

ADRIANA: Nice.

IX-CHEL: So that's how I landed. And then machines were easy to understand. Easy. According to me at that time it were. They were easy to understand and easy to command, let's put it like that. So. And yeah, from there on I decided computer science as my career. And my love for UNIX and the command line and programming has been there since I was a teenager, really.

ADRIANA: That's awesome. What was your first programming language?

IX-CHEL: It was Pascal. And then. Yes, yes, yes, Pascal. And then I went to C and then C++. And by the time I was, I was about to graduate, like year and a half before my graduation, Java made a splash. So I joined Java very, very early.

ADRIANA: Nice. That's awesome. Yeah, I got into Java just. I think they were doing Java in my university, in my third year of university. So I got into Java around that time and I mean, it was the hot language at the time, right? It was like, oh my God, we must all do Java.

IX-CHEL: Yes. Forget about pointers.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I know, right? I know you do C, programming, then you get into Java, you're like, ah, we friends again.

IX-CHEL: Oh my God.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

IX-CHEL: So that, that's how I started with computers. I fell in love with this big machines that I actually they were used mostly for effects... CGI at that time because they were using Softimage and Maya and things like that. So I wanted, at the beginning it was like, let's go and do a special effects at movies. But later on, like, no, I want to go deep.

ADRIANA: That's so cool. So, so what was your, what was your first job out of school?

IX-CHEL: My first job out of school. Oh my goodness. Actually, it was something more about like we were creating models for. At that time there was a plugin that had photorealistic details and you could create 3D models on that. It didn't. I mean, the technology died. But at that time people wanted to create like kind of avatars in real life, like clippy, but 3D and with the quality of movies.

ADRIANA: For that time it was like I had it. It was like well ahead of its time.

IX-CHEL: Yes, completely. Completely. That was my first job.

ADRIANA: Oh, that's so neat. That's so neat.

IX-CHEL: Yes.

ADRIANA: And, and I, I seem to remember because we're on a couple panels together and you mentioned this earlier as well, that you've, you've, you've done the DevRel thing. You've, you've. And then you've gone back into the software, back into being a software engineer. So I guess the question is, what got you into DevRel and then what made you switch back?

IX-CHEL: Okay, so first part, I was very. I'm an introvert. I'm an introvert that can have this like, this kind of moments of energy that is super extrovert. If you meet me at a conference, I'm talking, I'm doing, I'm with people. You see me after the conference, doesn't want to speak a word like a week. So I'm an introvert most of the time. So my first, as I said, I started with computers very early. They were my passion, but Ix-chel didn't speak. So as with your husband, he's. My husband is also in tech. He's actually also another PMC of the Groovy language. So you can imagine how deep we are.

ADRIANA: That explains his hardcore into Groovy then.

IX-CHEL: Yes. I told you. He was like, he convinced you and I didn't convince you. Remember that story?

ADRIANA: Oh, damn.

IX-CHEL: So we went to JavaOne and I was with him because he was a speaker at that time. And you know, we went to the speaker's dinners and whatnot. And then you could see the light of the eyes of the people. Like, what do I talk to the spouse? Because they didn't know that I was in technology. And literally they know that I was also in technology and I had same background and the same profile as my husband. So whatever. They talk with Andreas, my husband, they could talk to me.

ADRIANA: Yeah.

IX-CHEL: And in one of the meetings, in one of these dinners, I was talking to the organizers of QCon Brazil. Yes. And he, he was sharing his, his own experience that there were not a lot of women when he was at university. And, and he was telling me like, it's because we don't have enough role models. And I also was telling him my own experience because I have a dual degree. I'm computer science, but I'm also electronics and communication. Like hardcore. I decided computers at the end, but I'm still like designing. I could design circuits that could have been my future, but I decided computer, they were cooler. And I was telling him like, at least in computer science I had more women in school and in the electronics and communication, it was like, no, I. We Were only three women.

ADRIANA: Oh, my God.

IX-CHEL: In my entire generation.

ADRIANA: Oh, my God.

IX-CHEL: So I was telling him that I totally understand his, his, his position. And he said, like, you know, we need more women speakers. And I'm telling you, this is like more than 15 years ago. And I was like, yes, you're right. Like, yes, you're right. And once I explain, like, I have the same profile as my husband, I work in the same project we are actually, etc. Etc. And he's like, oh, my goodness. I mean, why don't you start speaking at conferences? I'm like, no, like that. But he got me thinking, like, that's the problem. We don't have enough role models, so somebody has to do it. Like. And at that time I said to myself, you're not so bad at what you do, and this is important for you because I had some really bad experiences when I was in the university and I hate them. I hate them so much. That that was for. For a time, my fuel.

And I said, I don't want any other woman having this insulting experiences. So I want more women so that we are not like the most strange thing in the room. So I told my husband, you know what, I'm going to start. Like, I want to speak at conferences. I want to show that we are good technically, we can do whatever. Like, it doesn't matter, but it's. This is important. So that's how I started to speak at conferences. And then, and then I started doing that a lot, but while still being a consultant. And I thought it was really important. And then I like it. And I travel and I met a lot of people and everything like that. So people were like, you are a DevRel. I'm like, no, I have deadlines, I have clients, I have projects I need to provide. Like, no, this is. This is part of my passion. This is part of what I do in my free time. And sometimes now I negotiate with my companies telling them, please sponsor 20% of my time to do all this stuff.

ADRIANA: That's awesome.

IX-CHEL: But people thought that I was a DevRel. And then one of my friends that I met at. In this kind of conferences or traveling or tours, he. He changed jobs and he literally knocked at my door and he said, Ix-chel, do you want to try being DevRel? And I thought for long because I said, this is my passion. This is 20% of my time, maybe more. This is 20% of my time paid by the company and almost all my free time.

ADRIANA: Yeah, it takes a lot of effort and energy.

IX-CHEL: Yes. So I said, yes, I'm going to do this. But turns out that for me, one really important part is technology for me is a tool, tool to solve problems, a tool to improve human lives. And being a DevRel, it's fantastic because you have all these interactions with people, you get all these feedback from developers, you are creating stories, you are helping people learn new things. But I was still missing this part of this is a tool to help solve problems. So I was missing a lot being a part of a project, like a steady project. I want my teammates to be not for this podcast, not for this MVP or this POC. I want people that we have meetings for six months, for one year where the project is still building, etc. etc. So that's why I decided it is fantastic being at DevRel. It's fantastic. Me being so introvert made it a little bit hard because being on more time than 20% or 60% or whatever, it was very hard on me. I love it. But I said, let's go back to engineering because you want to solve problems and have deadlines. And I was talking to my friends in Codemotion, my dear friends, and I said, you know what, I hate to say, but I was missing deadlines. I work better under pressure.

ADRIANA: That is hardcore.

IX-CHEL: Let's see how long can I sustain that again? Maybe I will go back to DevRel. No, I, I actually don't know. No, no, I, I'm happy doing what I'm doing right now.

ADRIANA: That's awesome. So how, how long were you a DevRel for before you. Two years. Okay, two years. And then you're like, no, I want to code.

IX-CHEL: Well, you know, DevRel means so many different things for so many different companies. And one, like you can see that I'm the person that research a lot for her talks for whatever. So I started interviewing a lot of DevRel. My friends and I, we got like the list of if you're a part of marketing is one way, if you're part of engineering is other way, if you're part of sales is another way. And the objectives and the guidelines and the type of work that you have to do and the priorities are totally different. Yeah, so my, my, my view on that, it's just one perspective from one company, from one department. So I cannot tell you honestly, like is DevRel what I experienced? It was one experience of DevRel with some perspective.

ADRIANA: And that's a really good point because as you said, depending on where DevRel falls in your organization, it's going to be a completely different experience. It depends on your manager and it depends. Some companies, companies are hung up on like you have to produce like this kind of content this many times a month or whatever. And then that can be like really stressful in its own, in its own way. Like for I. I've been lucky in, in my role where like, I don't have those kinds of constraints, which has been very nice. And my DevRel work is mostly aligned to open source and OpenTelemetry. Um, but I mean, I've seen, I've seen the other side of it where, you know, folks are like beholden to like producing content constantly and all this stuff. And it's really hard sometimes to like produce content because you have to sit down and learn the thing. But you can't learn the thing if you're expected to produce content all the time. So I, I have to say, like, I'm grateful for my current experience where, you know, I have, I have enough autonomy to like do things at a, at a reasonable pace, produce things that make my employer happy. But I know, I know it can also be like, so, so different.

IX-CHEL: Exactly, exactly. And the other thing that is important to understand is that producing video, producing audio, producing text requires different abilities and skills. And you have to be resonate with the task at hand. And if it's a task that you enjoy, it's going to be super fast and it's going to be something that makes you feel better. But if they are sometimes pushing you in a certain direction, then it's not so enjoyable. So the problem with DevRel, I think one of the problems with DevRel is that we are trying to apply hard measurements, that we are trying to apply this qualitative ideas into something that. Quantitative ideas into something that is qualitative and that mismatch. It's a little bit complicated sometimes.

ADRIANA: Yeah, I agree. And I think that's what causes a lot of conflict because companies want, they want metrics. How are we doing? How do we know we're successful? And sometimes I think companies will tend to like mishire as well for dev rel because it's like, oh, this person has a huge like social following. Okay, but social following because of what? Right, you know, like, you can't use that as like your only, you know, measurement for hiring, for hiring someone.

IX-CHEL: And, and you can also not measure really easy the impact that you have when you are targeting different audiences. Yes, I think, honestly, I think that the position is really important. I will never say that this is like a costing center because people usually some management managers, and let me tell you that this is what I'm saying. It's not because of my experience at my previous company. No, I lucked out. My boss was the best boss ever. He got it right. He understood. Like, let's talk to the audience, let's talk to the developers. It's not, it's not a sales pitch. You are actually telling them what is the problem. You're telling them what is the solution. And this solution is not your product. It, like, it can be your product, but the solution is this and that. You're explaining the solution. And if your product happens to solve the issue in a more eloquent way or with less impedance or less mismatch or less pain, well, that's an advantage. But you have to provide something to your audience. Either it's a better understanding of the problem, a better understanding of the solution, or just knowledge for them to make the right decisions. So my boss knew all of this, but I also, because I told you, when I joined DevRel, I didn't know what this was about. So I started interviewing all my friends. Like, what do you do? What does your day look like? What is your goal? What makes you happy? What makes you unhappy? What do you call success? What do you call a failure? So I got all these stories about what DevRel meant to them and their companies. So I started having this very distorted picture and I was like, oh my goodness. So it was, it was an interesting experience and I have a lot of a broader perspective on what it does, it means. And so that's why I'm telling you what I think it's wrong between the appreciation of the role, the role in itself, and its actual impact on the, on the community. So. But this is not...talking about my own experience.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's. That's some really good insight. And, and I think you, you've got it spot on. Well, another thing that I wanted to talk about, just switching gears a little bit because in, in our pre chat, you mentioned that you have organized some conferences and unconferences and I. Why don't you, why don't you talk more about that?

IX-CHEL: Well, the one that I'm going to mention is the smallest one, it's Basel one, but I love it because I'm the head of the content committee. So that happens in Basel. And I said it's a small one because we. Last year we have 300 attendees, but we have an amazing speaker lineup. So I was very, very happy about that. The other one that I help organize as part of the program committee, is Javaland, which is one of the largest in the German speaking area.

ADRIANA: Oh, cool.

IX-CHEL: Yes. Yes, that. That is one of my also favorite ones because it used to happen in one amusement park. Now we change it to race car. Yes, very famous. But anyway and probably we in the future we will change again to amusement park. The other conferences that un-conferences that I help organize is for example JCrete. JCrete is one that happens in Crete. So really nice. That is an awesome conference...un-conference. So we call ourselves the disorganizers. And for example we. There has been a sister conferences from un-conferences from this one one at the early in February of this year was, for example JChateau, which happens in France. And you can guess what we do is go to Chateaus, wine tasting, and amazing French cuisine.

ADRIANA: So that sounds amazing.

IX-CHEL: If you are into Java, you want to do un-conferences, go either JCrete, JAlba, JChateau. We will have Jalapeño in Mexico, in the beach, in hotels, all inclusive. So I'm also involved in. In those kind of un-conferences.

ADRIANA: Clearly I'm not going to the fun conferences because these un-conferences sound amazing.

IX-CHEL: They are. Honestly, at this point I prefer. I mean don't get me wrong, I'm in love with JavaOne. I'm in love with BaselOne. I also help or I was in the program committee of Devoxx UK. I have been working in the past in Jfokus, one of the largest in Scandinavia. So I love conferences and there's very special conferences because of how do they create the program, how do they organize the space, the topics, etc, etc. But for me un-conferences are like super special because you don't have speakers, everybody's a speaker and you don't have a program. So we encourage people to share their questions or their knowledge or we try to figure out like these conversations that have created amazing opportunities. There have been completely new companies born, for example from JCrete because it's the magic of the right people at the right moment, in the right environment.

ADRIANA: That's so cool. It's funny you mentioned un-conferences because one of my past guests, Lian Li, she talked about how she started into speaking, got into like public speaking. It was after like attending an un-conference. And she said that I guess her. Her topic got chosen and so that was like her first time getting to. To speak in front of an audience in that way. And she said then it led to other speaking opportunities. So it's so cool to have that sort of like organic, you know, like entry into.

ADRIANA: Into speaking. It's like low pressure but high reward.

IX-CHEL: Yes and honestly the community also helps a lot. For example Javaland it's organized by more than 40 different Java user groups around Germany, Netherlands and Switzerland. And for example the ones in different parts of Germany we have in Javaland attracted that it's the newcomers track where we actually help people to speak for the first time at a conference. So people that have never had a speaking experience, we ask them if they need mentors to develop the content or to develop whatever help they need. We can provide that. For example and in the JUG meetings we also have these sessions for new speakers and it's important because we provide the feedback at two levels. One is in terms of the topic and the other one in terms of how do we help you be more effective as a speaker. The other one that has been interesting because I also part of the Java Champions group and we always talking about how do we help the next generation of speakers how do we help people do this jump? Because technology is interesting but you also need the human factor, somebody that helps you learn and helps you grow.

ADRIANA: Yeah, absolutely. That's so important. And a question for you on in comparing organizing and un-conference compared to a conference, is it easier to organize an unconference or is it just a different kind of challenge?

IX-CHEL: I mean even organizing conferences is totally different because of culture, because of the size. I for example, I joke with people like, Javaland. Javaland requires meetings from entire days, like eight hours. We sit down in a room and we try to figure out stuff. Yeah but that's one way of organizing. Other conferences like everything is asynchronous. We only meet one time, we have a one hour conversation and that's it. We have a program. So I can tell you that the same thing happens with un-conferences. There was one time in JCrete we were almost 200 people, a little bit above 200. So the logistics of that was a nightmare because you still need to help them with the accommodation help them like figure out all the details like an un-conference of this of JCrete we don't have a sponsorship so everybody almost paid its own way. So there's a lot of questions we try. I mean it's also Crete which is, means that it happens during summer, so we're competing with a lot of tourists to rent cars. We are competing with hotels. So sometimes it's a nightmare. Yeah you can imagine But I think, I think that un-conferences require a little bit more coordination. Coordination doesn't mean more time to organize just more coordination.

ADRIANA: Right? Gotcha. Gotcha. That's awesome. Well, we are coming up on time. I mean, I can keep on talking forever and ever. There's like so many, so many cool topics to dig into, but unfortunately our time is coming to a close. But before we wrap up, is there any piece of advice or hot take you would like to share with our audience?

IX-CHEL: So many. But the first of the first one is learn. Learn something, even if you don't think that you need it. Like, be curious. Go read a page, even random sometimes, like something caughts your eye. Go to the next level. Be curious. You never know when that knowledge is going to be helpful. It usually creates small threads in our brains and you can pull them out later on. And sometimes you realize you know things that you don't realize that you know. And that is amazing feeling. So be curious. Always ask why. Don't be afraid of asking why. Having philosophical questions about everything. Life is philosophy. So curiosity, asking questions. That's my advice.

ADRIANA: Awesome. That is amazing advice. I live by that myself, so. And I can definitely attest that it makes for, you know, magical things come out of being curious and asking why. So definitely great advice to. To end off on. Well, thank you so much, Ix-chel, for geeking out with me today. Y'all don't forget to subscribe and check us out on our socials. You can check out our show notes as well. And until next time...

IX-CHEL: Peace out and geek out.

ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villella. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who incidentally designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingout.