Ian and Tim sat down with Jonathan Schneider, CEO of Moderne, about large-scale source code refactoring and the journey of starting a company focused on automating this complex task. Jonathan shares insights from his experience at Netflix and discusses the intricacies of automatic refactoring, the importance of maintaining code consistency, and the interplay between deterministic rules and AI tools in managing code migrations. The conversation touches on the applications and challenges of using AI in code refactoring and explores the potential for hybrid solutions in the future. 00:00 Introduction to the Infra Pod 00:19 Jonathan Schneider's Background and Journey 01:07 Challenges in Code Migrations 03:16 Moderne's Unique Approach to Code Refactoring 05:13 Technical Deep Dive: Abstract Syntax Trees and Lossless Semantic Trees 15:05 AI in Code Refactoring 25:10 Future of Code Migrations and Hybrid Approaches 32:40 Spicy Takes and Industry Predictions 39:35 Conclusion and Contact Information