You can also watch this podcast as a video on my YouTube channel.

What happens when an author, not a computer scientist, helps design one of the most innovative AI tools of our time?

In this episode of AI to the DNA, the podcast for everyone who wants to really understand and apply AI, I sit down with Steven Johnson, co-founder of NotebookLM, currently one of the hottest tools in the AI world. Together, we explore how a writer’s perspective shaped a product that’s redefining how we think, research, and create with artificial intelligence.

We talk about how NotebookLM went from a “broken prototype” to a breakthrough and why its core idea, “make anything interesting”, might just capture the essence of creative AI collaboration. Steven shares the story of building the tool ahead of its time, designing for the future of models like Gemini, and the moment when everything finally clicked.

We dive into how AI can turn routine knowledge work into moments of discovery, why conversation sits at the heart of understanding and what it means to move from using tools to co-creating with them. We also explore the unexpected lessons from bringing audio and video overviews to life and how curiosity, creativity, and constraint together drive true innovation. Just dive right into this worthwhile episode with Steven Johnson!

I'm Christoph Magnussen and at AI to the DNA, I'm not just asking how to use AI. I’m asking why it works the way it does. This podcast is for everyone who wants to move beyond tool-tourism and master the real craft of AI: Learning to think, work, and build side by side with intelligent systems!

(00:00) - Intro: Steven Johnson & NotebookLM
(02:17) - The Challenge: Designing Software for the AI of the Future
(04:57) - From Author to Google Founder: Steven's Unconventional Path
(09:05) - The Origin Story: 8,000 Quotes and the Idiosyncratic User
(14:45) - Team Design and the Audio Overviews Story
(23:10) - From Boring Work to Magical Research
(27:00) - The Slogan: Make Anything Interesting
(29:24) - A Look Under the Hood: Gemini Models and System Instructions
(34:53) - Champions League: Two Pro-Tips for NotebookLM
(41:47) - The Future: NotebookLM as a Publishing Platform

17.1 Metrics (Peter Blanch)