Conscious aging, redefining yourself and finding fulfillment as you age

Wayne Lehrer is an author, coach and teacher who leads a yoga class at the USC Leonard Davis School. He joined us to talk about his book, The Art of Conscious Aging and how to redefine yourself and find fulfillment as you age.

Transcript

I hear all the time, I used to do yoga, but now my body doesn't like it. Well, find a new yoga class. If you remember how it made you feel, then doing it in a new way, maybe a gentler class, maybe a hot yoga class that's in the dark, that's slow, where you hold the poses and no one's looking at you because you may be self-conscious, maybe that's the answer to it. But not doing it is only going to make your life collapse. And I believe that one of the biggest problems with aging is people's worlds get smaller and smaller.

Orli Belman (00:00):

From the USC Leonard Davis School of Gerontology, this is Lessons in Lifespan Health, a podcast about the science and scientists improving how we live and age. I'm Orli Belman, Chief Communications Officer. On today's episode, how teacher and coach Wayne Lehrer found purpose in aging and is working to help others do the same. Lehrer is the author of The Art of Conscious Aging, the Operating Manual for an Extraordinary Third Act. He also leads a weekly yoga class here at the USC Leonard Davis School. Welcome to our podcast, Wayne, and thank you for being here today.

Wayne Lehrer (00:39):

Oh, thank you for the opportunity.

Orli Belman (00:41):

I think it would be helpful to start with some definitions. Let's begin with the terms in your book title. What is conscious aging?

Wayne Lehrer (00:48):

Well, conscious aging is accepting the fact that it happens for everybody. That's the conscious part of it. You know, most of us live most of our lives under the assumption that we're never going to age, certainly, that we're never going to be old or get older. So conscious aging is how we approach the process and the practice of aging. It's just basically becoming mindful of all of the elements that go into the process of aging, whether it's exercise and diet, sleep, or the subtler things like stress, poor relationships, you know, creating value in the world. So conscious aging is showing up for your life in a way that your life creates value for you and others.

Orli Belman (01:32):

That's a wonderful idea. And what is the third act?

Wayne Lehrer (01:36):

So historically, you know, what people normally now refer to as the third act is retirement. Historically, you know, the average lifespan in 1900 was 47 years. So, there wasn't really a third act. You know, people were children, they went to work and then they passed away, basically. And around 1950, with the onset of Social Security and Medicare and all of the other elements that increased life expectancy: the fitness revolution, psychological help, retirement funds, a little bit more disposable income available and a less stressful life, people began to live long enough to have a third act. So basically, life in three acts is the first act of childhood–which I say basically goes from zero to 20–is a time of exploring, discovering who you are, gathering information, finding how you fit into your world and the world. And that's also a period of dependency, could be categorized.

Wayne Lehrer (02:42):

The second act, starting in your twenties, and for most of, us going to our mid-fifties or 60 years, so about 35 or 40 years, the second act is a time of independence. We develop the ego, the separate self, we explore the world as an individual. We acquire, achieve, build, collect, succeed, compete. And during that time we, you know, sort of begin to build the separate self and what is mine, which could be, you know, my profession, my identity, my family, my place in my community. And then what's historically happened is that 55 or 60 people began to retire. They began to get phased out of their jobs. Empty nest happened and all of a sudden, they're left alone. And historically what happened is people went into a period referred to as retirement, which was really a period of on the highest-level seeking comfort and serenity.

Wayne Lehrer (03:41):

But on the lower levels what it happened to be was security, being less engaged in life, withdrawing, you know, that just started changing. Now that people have a period of time of 30 or 40 years from the time of retirement–if you retire at 55 or 60 with the average life expectancy rising above 90–there's a good chance you're going to have 30, 40, maybe even 50 more years of life. And so it's as long as the period of the second act. And historically that was seen as a time where you just withdrew and you know, kind of went on this long slow decline towards oblivion, you know. And now for the first time, you know, their health is better, they have some money in the bank, some sense of ways of creating new value and transforming themselves, so it's what I call the new third act. And the new third act is a period of time where you look at how you're going to create value, become an elder, give back, build community and collaboration. Also, if you think about it in the theater or in the film historically, you know, the second act is where all the drama happens. The third act is where the hero rises from the ashes, pulls all the diverse parts of themselves together, finds a new level of who they are, and really makes a difference and redeems themself. At least in the better stories.

Orli Belman (05:02):

And you've advocated for a different word for retirement. What do you call this new third act instead of retirement and how would you describe it?

Wayne Lehrer (05:12):

Well, the woman who created AARP called it refirement, but I really think it's a time of reinventing ourselves. You know, where we're looking at all of the gifts we have, all of the professions we've participated in, what we're passionate about and what talks to us in the world, what speaks to us that we feel like we may be the answer to, or we may be able to make a contribution in regard to. And so we have to basically, you know, reimagine, recreate, redesign and reinvent who we are and then reboot as that person. So, you know, I think it's a time of reinvention and reimagining.

Orli Belman (05:54):

These ideas, are they based on your own personal experience?

Wayne Lehrer (05:58):

Both my own, those of a lot of my friends. Obviously, I'm in a number of communities right now of people that are, you know, my age or entering into their third act or deep into their third act. And when I look around at the people that are happy and that are actually where they feel that they're in the sweetest point in their life, they're actually in the sweet spot, all of those people are people that have made this transition. And I think the transition is the hardest thing because historically also there's been no role models for a healthy third act. So part of it is observation. A lot of reading. There's a lot of good new research out there. You know, that longtime Harvard study that talks about people that have been, you know, where they followed people for I think 75 years and they found that the people that had long-term relationships, the people that found ways to continue to create value in later life. So yeah, and I also think it's indicative of our time period. So it's really an observation of both our time period and those people that are around me and then my own process of moving through this transition.

Orli Belman (07:06):

And can you talk a little bit about your own process? I know you've had several careers and maybe you could give some advice to people who finished their first career. Is there anything to take away from your example about restarting, investing yourself and even becoming an entrepreneur?

Wayne Lehrer (07:22):

It's challenging, especially challenging to do something maybe you've never done before. I put myself in a position or feel called to be in a position where I'm having to use skills I never developed before but based upon all of these other things that I'm very passionate about. So, you know, when I was younger, I studied Oriental medicine, I invented medical machinery, I had a whole life as a designer. I designed theme parks, museums, and world's fairs. I was an IMAX and computer graphics filmmaker, have taught yoga and meditation now for 25 years. So, I've had this full life and, and multiple different experiences and what was in common to all of them. And I believe that this is a case for everybody when they start to approach their third act, is that each of us sort of has a core way we meet the world.

Wayne Lehrer (08:12):

So, for me, my gift was creating immersive, transformative, spiritually uplifting experiences. So whether it's a yoga class or meditation or it's a ride in a theme park. If you take my ride in the theme park, you're going to be swept away. You know, it's not just going to be a thrill ride; you're going to be pulled into another world. So I think one of the things that a lot of people are maybe terrified or feel really challenged about making a transition out of the career they've had is first assessing and acknowledging the skills that they've actually developed and not seeing a single job as they had, as something that wasn't something that brought them a skillset, brought them a new way to know themselves and have something to offer. And then also, and this I think is particularly indicative of the third act, it's very important at this age to look into the world and see what the things are that you respond to.

Wayne Lehrer (09:07):

So you know, the most obvious examples would be Mother Teresa said, Oh, somebody needs to take care of the lepers in Calcutta. And Jimmy Carter, who may be one of the better examples of somebody who has a way more profound third act than his first or second act went and started Habitat for Humanity or what Clinton did. And these are skill sets that yes, they had all of the diverse pieces for, you know, they could talk to world leaders, they could get in the door, they'd work with health people and that kind of stuff. But it was also them each being entrepreneurial, you know, actually being the spearhead of those things. And I know for me personally, you know, I've written this book and I feel that it's a message that I've been given to share and that really no one is talking about in the way that I am. As a result of that, I have to learn technology, the most dreaded thing that anybody in their seventies can have to do, you know. And I have to practice social media; you know, I'm a really warm and friendly person. I talk to everybody on the street and at Starbucks, but have me post on Facebook and you know, I shiver. You know, so I'm having to learn all these things and, and the thing that's allowing me to do it is my passion for the thing that I'm doing.

Orli Belman (10:21):

And you've spent some time around our school over the years, and you know that we are focused on healthy aging and there are a number of scientific studies that show measurable benefits of practices like yoga, meditation, gratitude. We have a course on the mind-body connection, and I'm sure none of these positive findings are a surprise to you. How did you come to these practices and what do you see people getting out of them, particularly as they age?

Wayne Lehrer (10:49):

That's a great question, and I think it's important to say that even in my book, anybody can start conscious aging at the age of 20. So I started doing yoga and meditation in my twenties. Now that, you know, gave me a bit of a head start, but that was my natural inclination. I was not so drawn to a professional career as I was to the life of a seeker, let's say. So as people age though, they need ways to disengage from their story. You know, if you notice a lot of older people, their stories, you know, the story you tell is the life you're living. And if you're telling a story that's 30 or 40 years old and may not even be true anymore and might not have even been true when you started telling it, may have only been from your trauma point of view, then you need all the help you can get to get free of that, if you want to reinvent yourself in your third act.

Wayne Lehrer (11:43):

So meditation is one of the ways of doing that. As we get older, if we look metaphorically at aging, part of what happens for people as they age is they become rigid in their thinking emotionally. You know, they limit their emotional life. They don't read new things; they don't go to new places as much. If they go to a new place, it's in the safe confines of a luxury cruise or whatever it is. And same thing happens in the physical body. So any kind of exercise like yoga or tai chi or qigong that's fluid and flowing is going to exercise and lubricate the joints. They actually have, you know, done research and they found out that the synovial fluid, it just needs movement and regular and it'll actually come back. So these are really simple and obvious things, and part of that has to do with the fact that you're only going to notice that if you're paying attention to your experience in the body that you have and in the mind that you have when you're in your sixties or seventies. If you're not paying attention to it, and you still think, oh I can play basketball, I can stay up till one o'clock at night and not pay for it the next day or the next two days.

Wayne Lehrer (12:54):

You know, so if you're paying attention and you actually have valuing that feedback system, then there's a great chance that you're going to start making the quality of choices that are going to lead you to things like yoga. And you're going to listen to those podcasts and those scientists and the people at the Davis School of Gerontology that are telling you about intermittent fasting. You know, all of these things that are all incredibly valuable that may not have been at all a part of your world while you were striving to earn a living and you know, build your home and your family and your business.

Orli Belman (13:29):

Can you tell me a little bit more about this feedback system that develops as we age?

Wayne Lehrer (13:34):

Yeah. When we're younger, we can get away with everything and anything. You know, when you're in your twenties, you want to stay up all night, no problem. You want to stay up two nights and then do a presentation for work? No problem. You want to eat french fries? No problem. Exercise until you drop? No problem. But when you get older, those things are not negotiable anymore; there's a very narrow window. Most people look at that in a negative way. They think, oh I can't do this and I can't do that anymore. But the truth is that you finally have a feedback system that scientists have always had. And the only way that science moves ahead is by having a ground zero or placebo study to go against. All of a sudden you recognize that if I do this, for example, if I say I want to write a book and yet I have an allergy to wheat and I eat wheat and I'm foggy the next day, then I can't write that book.

Wayne Lehrer (14:27):

And if I'm committed to that thing I'm passionate about, then I'll take a look at what it's going to take for me to accomplish that. Same thing with any dietary thing or exercise element. All of a sudden I have a feedback system because my body will let me know right away and my mind will let me know and I'll know emotionally this person is somebody I'm not comfortable about. I feel toxic after I hang out with them. This is how much time I can do that for. And the value of that is it really makes us more conscious beings, so we have finally have something to measure against that allows us to grow and actually become aware and cognizant of that fine-tuned area called quality of life or wellbeing.

Orli Belman (15:12):

So you're saying there's a real benefit that we get to be more in tune with ourselves and know what works for us and what doesn't.

Wayne Lehrer (15:19):

Absolutely.

Orli Belman (15:20):

And you mentioned earlier this idea of contributing or doing something of value as being important as people enter their third act. And this is also a big concept in the field of gerontology: this idea that there is a benefit to living with purpose. And that's something you're obviously doing. And what do you think about the importance of purpose and the role it plays in your life?

Wayne Lehrer (15:45):

Well, one of the things that you see really common in people as they age is they begin to feel devalued. If you've been at a job for 20 or 30 years and all of a sudden that job's over and you derived your value from showing up at the job and that's gone, that takes a toll. Now none of these things may individually take you down, but all of a sudden there are five or 200 people every day that you're not seeing either. And so the value that they have for you and that you have for them, that's gone. Your children have moved out and you're not a parent anymore. So the value you got from parenting, from making a contribution to somebody, that's gone. So it's not so much that we need it more in later life, it's that a lot of the sources of value we've had have inadvertently–and not so necessarily obviously–disappeared.

Wayne Lehrer (16:38):

That said, there's also, I believe, a natural thing that happens in India. They talk about three stages of life and the third stage. And you know, you go from being a householder to somebody who gives back, also sometimes known as a forest dweller. But somebody who becomes a seeker and moves into a more spiritual stage of life where they're making a contribution. So I believe it's a natural thing that actually elevates, if we're getting our value from what we do in the world and all of a sudden we're not doing as much in the world and we need to find a new way to get our value. And it may not be as much from what we do in the world as from actually going inside. Because those jobs that we got in the world, a lot of the jobs that people have for 30 or 40 years weren't jobs that they really chose.

Wayne Lehrer (17:25):

They were jobs that they were shuttled into by school, by parents, by opportunities that were purely monetary. So all of a sudden, when that's taken away and you become the person that makes the choice over what you want to do with the rest of your life, you have to look inside. And that is where the real value comes. Not just the looking inside, but looking inside and coming up and saying, wait a second, this in the world really matters to me. Like it became obvious to me that I had a contribution to make because those things I started at 20 that had to do with healthy aging, I kept doing them. And so all of a sudden all my friends were saying, oh my God, you're the youngest 73-year-old, we know. You should write a book. And I thought, yeah, that'd be nice.

Wayne Lehrer (18:07):

And then all of a sudden it, you know, just kept occurring to me. And next thing you know, I felt a calling because I saw a lot of people struggling, making a transition from their second to their third act. So I think a lot of people, it's almost a necessity that they find value because lack of value could result in what most people term depression, isolation, loneliness. These are all the natural things that happen for a lot of people as they age. And a lot of that has to do with that. They haven't found a place to be in the world. And our value comes from multiple places. So our communities have disappeared when we get older because we're not at work, we're not at school, you know, our kids aren't there. So we're not in the family as much. Our communities have disappeared. That's a place we get value.

Wayne Lehrer (18:49):

A lot of our relationships change. People move away or die. All of a sudden a place that we get value in, intimate relationships is gone. We're not doing our work. So the value we're creating as a worker or as somebody making a contribution that's been taken away, I believe, it's essential on multiple levels. Not the least of which has to do with, I believe, it's the period in our life when it's our job to give back. You know, historically, in other cultures there's a tradition called the elder, you know? And the elder was valued for the lifetime's worth of wisdom and experiences that they'd had, that they could relate to others, to help others avoid the pitfalls and the pain and the struggling and the suffering. That's not a common part of our society at this time.

Orli Belman (19:38):

Yeah, I think what you're talking about is something that many of our faculty talk about, which is this concept of generativity. A concern for guiding and giving back to the next generation, and that certainly comes across in what you're talking about and in your book. And why do you think that is something that plays such an important role in aging?

Wayne Lehrer (19:59):

Well, we're tribal. You know, we're part of a society now that's all filled with individuality and ego and a separate self. And a lot of us have benefited from being masterful, in going after things on our own and achieving things. But what has taken us to is the brink in a lot of different places. And that idea of generating value for society and for others is really essential to the very nature of who we are as people, which is we are not individuals. We're part of the human family, we're part of a planet and we're at a stage now that all of those things breaking down has become cumulatively painful to us if we don't stay in denial of it. And a lot of people do stay in denial of it because they don't want to face that pain, and they don't want to face the responsibility. But as you wake up to what your value is and what value you want to create in the world, I think that whatever value that most of the people are orienting their third acts around see as their contribution actually becomes something that contributes to the momentum of future generations. And turning things around for the collectivity.

Orli Belman (21:15):

And we've been talking about the third act, and which is the focus of your book and your work. But at our school, we're educating so many students of all ages and some of them as young as 18. And are there any lessons that they can apply to their own lives?

Wayne Lehrer (21:31):

Well, first of all, I have to say that I lived my whole life bulletproof. I had no physical problems. I didn't go to a doctor for like, 30 years, so I wasn't aware. And almost everyone I know, I talk to 57-year-olds who think that I'm exaggerating certain things because they haven't actually hit the transition from their second to third act. The reality of mortality, the reality of a body that doesn't always get fixed, the reality of being able to go out and get a new job, those things haven't really hit them yet. So they haven't been – I talk about in the book ­­— as being shattered. So for younger people, since that's not part of the reality, and most of us put off this idea that it's ever going to come, the best thing you can do is live well. Now, you know, the greatest contribution you can make to your own wellbeing as a 60, 70, or 80-year-old is to pay attention to these things that now surround us.

Wayne Lehrer (22:27):

You know, I mean, fitness didn't exist until the '50s. Psychology is only 50 or 100 years old, really. You know, or at least in the common parlance. It also kind of came in in the '50s. Retirement wasn't ever a possibility. So all of these things are new things. So, you know, to prepare yourself for a life that's going to go beyond just what you're doing now and just what you're attempting to achieve. Because you talk about an 18-year-old, they're at the beginning of their second act and all they see is, you know, the people that they admire, the role models in the second act. They see few role models in their third act. You know, the few people like, let's say, Jimmy Carter may be people that are sparking on one or two cylinders. But what about the people that are still healthy? Still can run a marathon? That have found ways to, you know, generate whole new fields of study.

Wayne Lehrer (23:22):

As I said, I think the most important thing that a young person can do, whether they're in the field of gerontology or not, is to really pay attention to what is required to live a healthy, well-balanced life, that's going to lead to a quality of living that's going to last you into your eighties or nineties or a hundred years old. Because a lot of the stuff that you lose, you can't get back. Now, a lot of it you can. I mean, I teach yoga to people that are incredibly inflexible, that start at 60 or 70. And if I watch a 50% turnaround in their flexibility, that means that the next 10 or 20 years of their life are going to be a lot better. Not just minimally better, but they're going to be a lot better. They're going to wake up in the morning and not immediately have to take some sort of medicine that's going to numb them out a little bit because they're in pain all day. And we know that a lot of people that age are doing that. Yeah, so the best medicine is doing it in advance.

Orli Belman (24:21):

And on the flip side, are there any lessons you think that people in their third act can draw from young people today? Any things that they're doing in their own lives that could be beneficial as we age?

Wayne Lehrer (24:33):

That's a really great question. And I know it's been really challenging for me and a lot of the people I know, one of the greatest qualities of young people, in fact, when we talk about old people, a lot of times what we say is they're stuck. They're rigid, they're not interested in new things. And if we talk about somebody that's young, curious to become curious again, that's an amazing quality that you can get from hanging around kids. And I think it's a lot of the thing that so many people in their third act love about being with their grandchildren. You know, you hang out with your grandchild for a couple hours and it's like, why? What? How come, you know? So I think curiosity is one of those things. Doing new things, you know, it's a chapter in my book. It's really important because what happens is you find a lot of older people and they say, oh, I've been there, I've done that.

Wayne Lehrer (25:26):

I don't like that anymore. Rather than look at maybe there's a new way to do that thing that you don't like, that could be incredibly joyful at this stage of your life. The other thing that young people I think can teach to older people is to really be willing to just live with your fears. Like I know at 30 I went back to school to become a filmmaker. My first job out of film school was directing the top newscaster in the world. That was my first job. I didn't think anything about it. And here I am, starting this whole new thing and I've got to learn all of these new things. It's no different than I did 40 years ago. And yet I want to admit, I feel terror often now, you know. Feel the fear and do it anyway is what you do when you're younger.

Wayne Lehrer (26:12):

Even if you're feeling the fear, most young people are in denial of it. But most of the time it's just like, okay, well, you know, what's the worst that can happen? When an old person says, what's the worst that can happen? They come up with a litany of worst-case scenarios, maybe only one or two of which actually were horrible and even happened. So I think that's another great thing, you know, to do new things, remain curious, investigate. Oh, finally be playful. You know, I have a group of guys that are between 30 and I'm the oldest and we go to the beach, and we meet at the beach in the morning. We meditate on the sand, and then we body surf. You want to turn into an 8-year-old boy? Go to the beach with a bunch of guys and at 6:30 in the morning, jump in the ocean and body surf. That just changes the quality and tenor of the rest of my day. A little bit of playfulness, a little bit of curiosity, a little bit of willingness to do things that I'm terrified of, all are reinvigorating me. And I believe that when you hear a lot of people say, this is the best time of their life, they're all probably have those qualities happening.

Orli Belman (27:18):

That's really wonderful advice. What would you say to people on this idea of trying new things? Who say, I can't do yoga, I'm not able to do that, I don't want, I'm not interested in meditation. How do you convince people to try something new?

Wayne Lehrer (27:34):

Well, I think it's really valuable to look around. You know, there's a saying, if you want to stop doing heroin, stop hanging out with heroin addicts. [laughs] You know, if you want to do these things, start hanging out with people that are living that new third act. So what happens to a lot of older people is they stay in the same circles. You know, I know that almost everybody that's in my life right now, of any age or people that inspire me, I don't really hang out with anybody that doesn't inspire me anymore. And so now obviously some people say, well, family, okay, so put family aside if they don't inspire you. But I think that it's essential to look around and see the people that you admire the most, that have aged the best, who you think have a real quality of life and do what they do.

Wayne Lehrer (28:19):

You know? And the other thing is, again, if you're doing new things and you're curious. You know, I hear all the time, I used to do yoga, but now my body doesn't like it. Well find a new yoga class. If you remember how it made you feel, then doing it in a new way, maybe a gentler class, maybe a, a hot yoga class that's in the dark, that's slow, where you hold the poses and no one's looking at you because you may be self-conscious. Maybe that's the answer to it. But not doing it is only going to make your life collapse. And I believe that one of the biggest problems with aging is people's worlds get smaller and smaller.

Orli Belman (28:58):

And just on an actual like, practical level, if you know someone in your life who says, I'm not going to try yoga. What's a way to convince them to give it a try?

Wayne Lehrer (29:07):

Like anything, tell them how it makes you feel. You know, share your enthusiasm, share your joy. Share the difference it's made for you. Whether it's meditation–I mean, so many people I know that are older, because I teach meditation and yoga, you know, they'll say to me, I say, well try this class or go there. And once I get a taste of it, there's a song by a friend of mine and he's got a line in it. He says, I've just had a taste of something fine. I think if you can get somebody to just try something, you know, so that may be part of your negotiating with them is like, just try it. If you don't like it, you never need to do it again. But what do you have to lose? Because the downside is, I joke in my yoga class all the time, I said, okay, so you're 40 years old and you can't do the splits. What if it takes you 40 years to be able to do the splits? That means at 80 years old, you're going to be doing the splits. You're going to be the hottest person in your senior housing place. People are going to be knocking on your door at 11 o'clock at night.

Orli Belman (30:04):

[laughs] Well, being curious and playful and active and flexible. That is all really wonderful advice. And is there anything you want to add that we haven't talked about?

Wayne Lehrer (30:16):

Yeah, I think one of the things that I didn't know when I started writing my book and what caused me to write it, what inspired it was that I got moderately depressed. Which is, you know, I got depressed, you know, and I didn't know what it was about. So I went to a psychotherapist who specialized in gerontology, and while I was working with him, he kept working on my depression. And after a couple months there, I realized that depression wasn't my problem. My problem was that I was stuck in this, what I call second act operating system of achieving and acquiring and accumulating and building and competing when in fact, that's not what I was doing anymore. So I was defining myself. I was in a losing proposition. And I think a lot of people when they get into their fifties, sixties, and seventies, keep defining themselves by their second act, body, minds, jobs.

Wayne Lehrer (31:08):

And so making that transition is one of the most challenging things. So historically we had the, you know, what's called an identity crisis. Which was between 20 and 21, you know, somewhere, you know, between your first and your second act. Tons of role models, easy transition. You went to college, you got a job, you know, decided on a profession, you got married. These are all natural things that, what do you do? What does someone do? Going from not working, from working every day, having kids at home, and all of a sudden all of that's gone? There are no role models for it. So it's a very challenging proposition. You need to find healthy communities, you need the help of, whether it's a therapist who specializes in this or somebody who coaches you through this transition process. I believe it's the biggest challenge that anyone's going to face as they enter into old age, which is learning to redefine themselves by a new operating system.

Orli Belman (32:05):

Well, thank you so much for being that role model. Our podcast is called Lessons in Lifespan Health, and you've certainly given us so many lessons to learn from today. So thank you so much for joining us.

Wayne Lehrer (32:17):

Oh, it was such a pleasure. Thank you, Orli.

Orli Belman (32:19):

That wraps up this Lesson in Lifespan Health. Thank you to Wayne Lehrer for his time and expertise, and to all of you for choosing to listen. Join us next time for another Lesson in Lifespan Health and please subscribe to our podcast at lifespanhealth.usc.edu.

Lessons in Lifespan Health is supported by the Ney Center for Healthspan Science.