In this Money Talks: Felix Salmon is joined by author James Frey to discuss his new novel, Next to Heaven, set among America’s ultra-ultra-rich, the real life billionaires he knows who inspired it, and why he thinks money is addicting.

Want to hear that discussion and hear more Slate Money? Join Slate Plus to unlock weekly bonus episodes. Plus, you’ll access ad-free listening across all your favorite Slate podcasts. You can subscribe directly from the Slate Money show page on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Or, visit slate.com/moneyplus to get access wherever you listen.

Podcast production by Jessamine Molli and Cheyna Roth.

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#77 - The Bible on Leadership - Nehemiah part 2