One may not expect Russell Moore and Jonathan Rauch, an openly gay atheist, to become friends—much less to be positive influences on one another’s lives and work. But as this conversation shows, this surprising fact is true.

The two discuss their perspectives on politics, Christianity, and culture. They talk about their regular gathering on Thursday nights with fellow thinkers and the ways they see fear taking precedence in American churches. Their discussion covers race, gender, and sexuality, as well as Christian nationalism, parallels between the political left and right, and the reasons why Rauch considers forbearance to be a key aspect of liberal democracy. Moore and Rauch consider the “four Ms”—mortality, morality, murder, and miracles—and talk about why Rauch dedicated his new book, Cross Purposes, to two Christian friends who have passed—Tim Keller and Mark McIntosh.

Resources mentioned in this episode or recommended by the guest include:

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