07 The Persian Wars w/ Ian Morris (Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophon)
Feb 27, 2017
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Archaeologist and professor of Classics at Stanford University, Ian Morris, discusses the Persian expeditions against Greece in 490-479 BC. He explains the latest research on economies, technologies, and demographics of both civilizations and how they may have affected the outcome of the conflict. The episode touches on some main ideas from Morris' book 'War: What is it good for?' which counters the belief that warfare has made human societies progressively less violent. The podcast explores the concept of productive vs unproductive war, the differences between the Persian Empire and the ancient Greek world, the role of democracies and republics in going to war, and the geographical significance of Maelidus in history.
The Persian Wars marked the beginning of Athens' cultural and economic dominance in Greece for nearly a century.
The concept of culminating points in empires highlights the need for reassessing strategies and pursuing diplomatic means after failed invasions.
Deep dives
The Persian Wars and the Resilience of Athens
The episode introduces the Persian Wars, which posed a threat to Greece's fledgling democracy and theater traditions. Despite initial devastation, Athens rose from the ashes as a powerful state due to factors like democracy and innovative military tactics. The Persian invasion put Athens under immense pressure, but their navy's victory and the defeat of the Persian land forces shifted the tide. This marked the beginning of Athens' cultural and economic dominance in Greece for nearly a century.
Productive War and Decline of Empires
The episode explores the concept of productive war, where wars propel the growth and safety of societies. However, at some point, empires reach a culminating point where further expansion becomes counterproductive. This turning point often occurs after a disastrous campaign, as empires ignore the limitations of their actions. The Persian Empire experienced multiple culminating points throughout its history, such as unsuccessful invasions. These points forced them to reassess their strategies and pursue diplomatic means to deal with the Greeks.
Military Technology and the Greek Advantage
The Greeks demonstrated better military technology during the Persian Wars, but the notion of superiority can vary depending on the context. The Persians' failure to exploit their own strengths, such as superior numbers, and their ill-fated choice of battlegrounds played into the Greeks' hands. The constant warfare among Greek city-states, including Athens and Aegina, led to innovative advancements in military technology, particularly in naval warfare. However, it is unclear how much warfare directly fueled Greek technological progress due to the inability to determine alternate uses of resources.
The Culminating Point and the Complexity of Warfare
The theory of culminating points posits that every empire reaches a limit where further expansion becomes detrimental. Predicting or preventing these turning points is challenging, especially in situations where the outcomes are uncertain. The unpredictability of conflicts often arises from unexpected events or miscalculations. Case studies like the outbreak of World War I highlight the difficulty of foreseeing events that trigger catastrophic consequences. The episode emphasizes the complexity of warfare and its intersection with history and technology.
Ian Morris, archaeologist and professor of Classics at Stanford University, joins us for a discussion on the Persian expeditions against Greece in 490-479 BC. How did the Greeks pull off a totally unexpected victory against the biggest invasion force that had ever been launched? Morris explains what the latest research and archaeology tell us about the economies, technologies, and demographics of these civilizations, as well as how these factors may have affected the result of the conflict. Morris' most recent book is "War: What is it good for?" - a fast-paced history of the world from the Stone Age to the present that focuses on warfare, geography, and technology. In it, he makes a counter-intuitive claim: that warfare, if we look at it over many thousands of years, has actually made human societies progressively less violent.This episode focuses on the Persian wars but touches on some of the main ideas from Morris' book.
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