Nick Cave, the celebrated musician known for his profound explorations of faith and grief, joins historian Tom Holland, acclaimed for his insights on Christian values in modern society. They dive into why both artists are drawn back to Christianity, highlighting Cave's imaginative view of God and Holland's fascination with the weird and wonderful. Their conversation raises questions about the resurgence of interest in Christianity, emphasizing a faith that inspires imagination and opens the mind to the unknown, rather than mere numbers.
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question_answer ANECDOTE
Cave's Return to Church
Nick Cave returned to church after his son's death.
His wife's simple prayer in a Lady Chapel offered a unique space for unburdening.
insights INSIGHT
Structured Imagination
Cave prefers churches with liturgical structures over those with guitars.
He finds that structured environments, both in church and songwriting, foster his imagination.
insights INSIGHT
Humility in Church
Cave appreciates churches that don't focus on individual needs.
This fosters humility and provides a sense of relief, allowing for a connection with a higher power.
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The Power of Man, the Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy
Matthew Scully
In 'Dominion,' Matthew Scully presents a comprehensive and eloquent case against the mistreatment of animals. The book delves into various aspects of animal suffering, including factory farming, hunting, whaling, and laboratory experiments. Scully challenges the notion that humans have unlimited dominion over animals, as suggested by biblical interpretations, and argues for a moral and compassionate approach to animal treatment. He draws on both religious and scientific perspectives to make his case, emphasizing the importance of empathy and the recognition of animal consciousness and suffering. The book is a call to action for reform and a plea for human benevolence and mercy towards animals.
The Cloud of Unknowing
Anonymous
This book is a foundational text of Christian mysticism, written in the 14th century. It advises readers to direct their full attention, love, and effort towards God by embracing a 'cloud of unknowing' that stands between them and God. The author emphasizes that God cannot be known through intellect but only through love and a deep, contemplative practice. The text advocates for the abandonment of all worldly thoughts and distractions to focus solely on God, using a 'cloud of forgetting' to separate oneself from created things. It is a guide for advanced spiritual seekers, outlining the stages of spiritual life including purgation, illumination, and union with God[2][3][4].
Nick Cave and Tom Holland discussed Christianity in an event organised by Unherd entitled In Search of Wild Gods on Thursday 9th January 2025. Chaired by Freddie Sayers, the conversation revolved around whether and why there is renewed interest in Christianity.
Tom Holland’s book Dominion has become a staple of learned comment, with its thesis that pretty much all the values that shape our society are Christian values. Nick Cave is currently on a global tour with tremendous, joyous, hard won songs conveying a distinctly revival feel. But are we in a culturally significant moment?
The answers they gave are much worth considering. What do they find in church? What do they not want to find? What is about the weird and wonderful that so appeals to Tom Holland? What is about the mystical and inexpressible that attracts Nick Cave?
The discussion brought little comfort for Christians who seek success by numbers or ecclesiastics hoping a panic about cultural Christianity will save the church. Rather, both Cave and Holland point to a kind of Christianity that opens onto the unknown, inspires the imagination, and enlarges the capacities of the human soul.
0:00 Why Nick Cave went back to church 6:15 How Nick Cave imagines God 9:30 Tom Holland's love of the weird 14:23 Holland's thesis about Christian values 17:10 Is there a Christian revival underway? 23:28 Christianity at its most compelling 28:13 Music as akin to religious experience
Inner Life, Talks and Thoughts 
