For the 300th episode of The Geek in Review, we celebrate in true “three geeks” fashion by bringing back two familiar voices: Kris Satkunas, Director of Strategic Consulting at LexisNexis, and legal pricing expert Toby Brown, CEO at DV8 Legal Strategies. Kris joins to walk through highlights from the newly released 2025 CounselLink Trends Report, and Toby brings his trademark insight… and a touch of skepticism to the discussion. Together, they explore what the latest data reveals about legal pricing, client behavior, firm strategy, and the evolving landscape of law firm-client relationships.

The conversation opens with a focus on the headline trend: partner billing rates continue to rise steeply, particularly in high-value areas like M&A and regulatory work. Despite clients claiming to negotiate hard on pricing, the data on effective rates, what clients actually pay, suggests those increases are sticking. Kris points out that clients are becoming more sophisticated in managing blended rates and staffing strategies, using analytics and technology to influence outcomes, even if hourly billing still dominates.

A recurring theme is the widening rate gap between large and mid-sized firms, now a staggering 61%. Kris attributes this to the concentration of high-rate work in large firms and their dominance in practices like M&A and regulatory. Toby adds that the presence of pricing professionals at larger firms contributes to more strategic rate setting—something mid-sized firms often lack. The team also discusses a new report metric analyzing new matter spend, which reveals that even fresh legal work is increasingly flowing to the largest firms, countering narratives that mid-sized firms are winning market share.

When the conversation shifts to Alternative Fee Arrangements (AFAs), Kris cautiously celebrates a slight uptick in usage, while Toby remains doubtful about long-term momentum. They agree that lawyers’ difficulty in scoping matters remains a key barrier. The role of project management professionals is highlighted as crucial for moving the industry forward on AFAs—but adoption is still slow, especially outside of established comfort zones like IP and employment law.

Greg brings up another area ripe for disruption: ALSPs and their potential to absorb high-volume, low-risk work. While Kris hasn’t yet seen a data-supported shift toward ALSPs, Toby sees tremendous opportunity—particularly when ALSPs combine process standardization and AI tools. The hosts also discuss specific use cases, like LegalMation for employment litigation, where existing tech could already reduce cost and inefficiency, if only firms were willing to change.

The episode closes with a look ahead. Kris notes the eye-popping rate growth among associates—some nearing $2,000/hour—as a surprising trend, while urging caution in interpreting conflicting data from different sources. Her “crystal ball” prediction? Legal rates will likely continue to climb, especially in high-stakes practice areas, while AFAs may finally gain ground if firms invest in the infrastructure to scope and manage work properly. As always, the team ends with good humor, mutual respect, and a shared love for data—exactly the energy you’d expect for The Geek in Review’s milestone 300th episode.

Listen on mobile platforms: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

[Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]

Blue Sky: ⁠⁠@geeklawblog.com⁠⁠ ⁠⁠@marlgeb⁠⁠
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com
Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript:

🎧 The Fintech and AI Series: All Things Lending