Oncology, Etc. - Female Leadership in Practice: Two ASCO Leadership Development Program Success Stories

In this Oncology, Etc. episode, Drs. Patrick Loehrer and David Johnson Speak with Drs. Lecia Sequist (Massachusetts General Hospital) and Melissa Dillmon (Harbin Clinic) on how ASCO’s Leadership Development Program (LDP) has taken them down varying paths, as well as the ways it has influenced their lives, careers, and the lives of those around them.

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Air Date: 2/1/22

 

TRANSCRIPT

[MUSIC PLAYING]

PAT LOEHRER: Hi, I'm Pat Loehrer. I'm director of the Center of Global Oncology here at Indiana University.

DAVID JOHNSON: And hello. My name is David Johnson. I'm at UT Southwestern in Dallas, Texas. So Pat, we've got a couple of really great guests today.

PAT LOEHRER: Yeah. I'm really excited. I've been looking forward to this.

DAVID JOHNSON: So have I. Listen. Before we get started, I have a book I want to recommend to you. This one I got over the holidays and just finished it recently. It's called The Doctors Blackwell by Janice Nimura. So as many of our listeners know, Elizabeth Blackwell was the first female physician in America. Her sister Emily also followed her into the medical profession.

Nimura really writes, I think, a fascinating biography about both ladies, particularly Elizabeth. And one point she made, and I think it's interesting, it's not really clear why Elizabeth went into medicine.

Certainly at the point that she did in the mid-1800s wasn't a profession of great reputation at that time. And, in fact, Nimura describes Elizabeth as, quote, "lacking a caring instinct," which I thought was an interesting characterization of the first female physician.

And she indicated that she was hardly a feminist. She was actually opposed to Women's Suffrage, for example. According to Nimura, she became a doctor largely just to show that she could. And then, really, the rest of her career I won't give away. The subplot is really quite interesting. I think you would find it most interesting to recommend to you and our listeners who have a particular interest in medical history.

PAT LOEHRER: Actually, I've ordered the book. I can't wait to read it.

DAVID JOHNSON: Excellent.

PAT LOEHRER: I got a book for Christmas, Lyrics by Paul McCartney. And I read through that. That's fascinating, actually. So 158 of his songs were detailed and the backgrounds for it. So that was kind of fun.

We're excited today because we're going to talk to a couple of graduates of our Leadership Development Program. That was a program of ASCO that was conceived a little over a decade ago. It's been, to my mind, one of the best programs that ASCO has done.

It has taken younger faculty and oncologists from around the country, and Dave and I were among the first leaders of the program as mentors. I think that was one of the bigger mistakes ASCO has ever done. But despite that, we have a lot of fun. There were 12 graduates each year. They all had projects they presented to the board of directors.

There were, if you will, classes and lectures throughout the year on leadership. And they all had projects. And for me, it was the best three years of my life, I think, through ASCO. It was just a lot of fun. And part of it was getting to know a lot of people, including Melissa and Lecia, who are with us today.

Lecia is a Professor of Medicine at Harvard and Mass General Hospital. She did her medical school at Harvard, residency at Brigham and Women's Hospital, fellowship at Dana-Farber.

She is currently the co-leader of the Cancer Risk Prevention and Early Detection Program at Dana-Farber and director-- I think I want to hear more about this-- she's the director of the Center for Innovation in Early Cancer Detection at MGH.

Melissa, she went to Converse College in Spartanburg, South Carolina, went to medical school at Wake Forest. Then did her internship and residency at UAB. She did her fellowship at UAB. And she now serves as the Chairman of the Department of Oncology and the Board of Directors at the Harbin Clinic. And we're so excited to have both of you here.

DAVID JOHNSON: Yeah. Very much so. And why don't we get started by just getting a little background information. Melissa, let's start with you. Can you tell us a little bit about how you got into medicine and, more specifically, why did you choose oncology?

MELISSA DILLMON: That's a great question. I was a political science major at a women's college in South Carolina and was destined for the State Department. And we used to have January terms.

And I mistakenly got put with-- and I don't think it's a mistake-- former graduate of Emigre Medical School, who is a medical oncologist in Greenville, South Carolina, for a six-week term and fell in love with medicine, fell in love with the ministry that he provided to his patients, and followed him to Bowman Gray and went back years later and told him thank you for changing my life. So that's how I got interested in medicine. I come from a long line of accountants and engineers. There is no person in my family in medicine.

PAT LOEHRER: I was an engineer. Some of the best people in life are engineers.

DAVID JOHNSON: I didn't know you drove a train.

[CHUCKLES]

PAT LOEHRER: Eat your heart out.

DAVID JOHNSON: So Melissa, before you leave, I actually grew up very close to where you practice. How did you end up in Rome, Georgia?

MELISSA DILLMON: Well, my dad and his twin are proud graduates of Georgia Tech. So he found me a job. And I said, well, I'm grown up. I was going to stay on faculty at UAB but came to Rome, Georgia and really was excited about the multispecialty group that I ended up joining. There's about 250 of us now. And kind of had the feeling of a university but in a small town. Kind of best of both worlds.

Neither of my two daughters have gone to Georgia Tech. One of them is at Georgia. Just won that national championship. But my third one, we're hoping maybe she'll be the one that goes to Georgia Tech.

PAT LOEHRER: So you stayed up and watched the game. I have to ask this, right?

MELISSA DILLMON: I did. I stayed up to the very end.

PAT LOEHRER: And so who are cheering for? Alabama or Georgia?

MELISSA DILLMON: Definitely Georgia.

PAT LOEHRER: Interesting. Good. Good.

DAVID JOHNSON: And Lecia, why don't you tell us about your background and how you got interested in oncology. And let us know if MGH has a football team.

[CHUCKLES]

LECIA SEQUIST: Oh, sure. Thanks for having me here. This is going to be a fun conversation. So I grew up in the Midwest, in Michigan. But I've been on the East Coast now for the majority of my life. And when I was a resident, I was actually in a primary care track residency program, because I thought I wanted to be a primary care physician.

And I really liked the idea of sticking with people, getting to know them over long periods of time, and kind of standing by them through the highs and the lows of their lives. Well, I was finding out in residency that primary care wasn't really like that. That was for television shows.

People change primary care doctors and move around so much, it's rare that you actually do get to take care of people for a long time, at least in a big city. And I also found that, for me, primary care was a lot of asking people to do things they didn't want to do-- exercise, lose weight, stop smoking, do this, do that.

And I always felt that I was at odds with my patients or nagging them. And then, when I would be in the hospital on oncology rotations, trying that out, I really felt like I was allied with my patients and not nagging them or pushing them, but really here we were together against this fight against cancer.

And cancer was what we were fighting together. And I just fell in love with that. So much to the disappointment of the residency program that was really trying to get people to go into primary care, I said, I've got to be a specialist. And here I am.

PAT LOEHRER: It's interesting, though, that you do risk reduction and prevention. So you're back to telling patients to lose weight and exercise again, you know?

[CHUCKLES]

LECIA SEQUIST: Yeah. I guess, in some ways that's true, although I'm not really taking care of primary care patients. But after spending a lot of years doing a more traditional medical oncology track of drug development and targeted therapies, the last five years I have switched my research over, kind of a midlife crisis situation, where I said I've got to do something different. I'm in a rut. And I started looking at new technologies for early detection. And I really enjoyed it because it's something different.

For one thing, I just felt like I was in a rut. But it's really a way to be a lot more proactive with the community and to work on issues of social justice, thinking about cancer screening, and who has access and who doesn't, and what can we do better. So I'm really enjoying that in this phase of my career.

PAT LOEHRER: Terrific. The four of us are linked because of this Leadership Development Program that the American Society of Clinical Oncology put together. And I think Dave and I are really curious whether, here it is many years later now. It's been almost 9 or 10 years later now. As you reflect on the LDP, what are some of the highlights? What did you learn about yourselves and was the program worthwhile for you?

MELISSA DILLMON: Well, I'll start. I was part of the class, 2010-2011, best class ever. And it was the second class in the Leadership Development Program. I applied for the first year's class and didn't get it. And one of my friends and partners, a radiation oncologist, who was very involved in ASCO, encouraged me strongly. Said, don't give up. Try again. And I did.

And it was instrumental in developing both my career within ASCO as well as pushing me to leadership positions in my own clinic and in my own state. And helped develop a lot of skills that have made me successful in pushing state legislative efforts. My political science background did not go away, just like her primary care roots. And so I think that the program also made friends with Pat and with Dave and with my co-classmates.

And as the years have gone by, and I've gone to ASCO, when you see that LDP ribbon on somebody's tag, you immediately have a connection with them and know that you've been through a similar experience. So I think it's been really instrumental in developing my career. And I'm currently serving as a mentor for the leadership program. So I'm living your life 10 years ago, Pat and Dave, and it's great.

DAVID JOHNSON: Oh, I'm sorry.

PAT LOEHRER: Terrific.

DAVID JOHNSON: [INAUDIBLE]

LECIA SEQUIST: I would echo what Missy was saying about how much it's influenced my career. I was in the 2011 class. So I think the year after she was. And I also applied multiple times, and I always tell people who are thinking of applying that it often does take multiple attempts to get in and not to lose faith. The selection committee does like to see that persistence. So definitely apply more than once.

I learned so much about what leadership is. I thought it was about being the best in a group of people. So then, being selected to have a certain title. And I just really learned so much during that year, that it doesn't really have anything to do with a title, although that can be a part of it for some people.

But it's just more about a style, an approach to your profession, and that you can be a leader if you are the designated head or chief of something, but you can also be a leader if you don't have that designation.

And there are many different styles and ways to lead and to help people to ultimately get a group to do the very best that they all can together. And the friends that I made that year from my co-classmates as well as you guys and Jamie, who are our leaders, are just lifelong friends and mentors.

And you know, I think it really got me thinking seriously about my choices in my career too and not to just kind of cruise through a career and see what happened and where life took you, but to really plan and to chart your own course and to make sure to reevaluate. And if it's not going the way you want it to, to rechart and replan.

DAVID JOHNSON: We had a bunch of different lectures on different topics. Was there one of the lectures or areas that was particularly beneficial to you?

PAT LOEHRER: I can think of one. I'll start out by doing this. We threw this in the second year, just for the heck of it. We did this personality testing. And I thought it was fascinating because, in my group, there was a little bit of conflict going on with one of the people in my group.

And I realized that we were both acting out our personalities. I like to look at the big picture, and he liked to just zoom in the middle one. And the other thing that I do remember is that we showed the profiles, and it turned out Dave and I were exactly opposite. And then we both said at the same time, we should be married.

[CHUCKLES]

MELISSA DILLMON: One lesson that stands out in my mind was the press preparation lesson that we received from Press Relations group at ASCO. And I think that was essential for developing skills with regards to preparing for difficult conversations and being able to redirect questions that were difficult. I use that as leader of the Government Relations Committee oftentimes.

I will also say that the other lesson that stands out in my mind is conflict resolution because, at the time, I was not chair of my department and was having significant conflicts with the current chair of my department. And that lesson helped me to go back week after week and more constructively work towards a solution and then eventually became chair of that department. So I think those two lessons gave me lifelong skills that I've used in all my leadership roles.

LECIA SEQUIST: Yes, it's amazing how 10 years later, we can still remember the specific lectures and specific comments that people made. I remember those that you were talking about Melissa, but yeah, before you had said yours, Pat, I was going to say the same thing, that personality test was extremely helpful.

And I certainly don't remember all of the different initials of the personality types. But just to understand that concept that people have different emotional skills and blind spots that very much influence how they deal with others in the workplace.

And to be able to think about that when you're having conflict with someone and think about how to take that into a strategy where you can kind of play to their strengths and understand where they're coming from, that was extremely helpful.

And then, I also think that talking in small groups with our teams about specific problems we were having or obstacles that we were facing and getting advice from others on how to overcome them, that really started me on a recurrent mission to find friends who I could share that with outside of my institution, over the course of my career.

I think that was a real exercise in how valuable that could be. It's so critical to have peer mentors that you can talk to and strategize with and get advice about how to handle something that you're struggling with at work and have people that aren't in the same room full of people or aren't living in it. So they're a little bit more objective.

DAVID JOHNSON: Let me ask a question of the two of you. Do you think your home institutions in your case, Lecia, MGH and in your case, Missy, Harbin Clinic, valued that training that you received? Did they recognize it as something that was worth the time that you spent or do you think it just something that happened and they didn't really take notice?

MELISSA DILLMON: I learned in LDP that institutions don't love you back.

PAT LOEHRER: They don't love you to begin with. Joe Simone. Joe Simone.

DAVID JOHNSON: So I take that as a no. Your institution really said, eh, OK, great. We're glad you did it, but so what?

LECIA SEQUIST: I wouldn't say that. I don't know that they said, so what? I just, I'm not sure that they-- there was no rolling out the red carpet, thank goodness you did this. But I do think it's had an institutional impact in that I have since encouraged other people to apply from my institution. And I think that only strengthens the institution, to have multiple people going through that program.

MELISSA DILLMON: So my clinic, being private practice, when I take time out, it is just a cut from my salary. There's no support given from the institution. But in order to be in positions of leadership, department chair or on the board of directors, which I later was elected to of the clinic, you have to have completed a leadership development program. And the clinic will pay for you to go do those things.

But my participation in Leadership Development Program met all those criteria. So my clinic highly values professional development classes or meetings or programs and encourages that. Even if there's no financial support necessarily, it is encouraged, if you want to assume positions of leadership within our clinic.

And so I think that it's important for institutions, whether they're private practice or university, to recognize the benefits that come from participation in a program like this.

And it was interesting as a mentor this year, we did a personality test, but this time they did an interesting look at what our priorities, our top five priorities or values are. I think it was values.

And it was a list of 300 things basically you go through. And you listed your top five values. And then you listed the values of your institution or employer. And then you wanted to look at, did they match? And did your university value what you value?

And that was a really interesting exercise to go through because a lot of these young leaders who are taking their time out to do this program did not feel that support necessarily for them seeking out this program.

PAT LOEHRER: It's no coincidence that Dave and I asked both of you to join because you both come from different places, if you will. And I think, Melissa, you've just been a rock star in terms of the community practices and so many things that you have done in the leadership roles. And Melissa's, you can't get any more prestigious in being in one of the Boston medical schools and particularly at Mass General.

But the other reason we wanted to have you come in is to talk a little bit about your perspective as women and women in leadership roles. And if you could maybe share a little bit about your thoughts and perspectives of gender leadership and what you have noticed in men in leadership roles and women and what lessons you might give to other people, particularly other women in this capacity.

MELISSA DILLMON: Well, I think we both were trained in a day. And I might be speaking for you, but when there were, at least here at the institutions where I trained, not that many women in internal medicine. Medical school was probably 45% female by the time I was in medical school.

But when you look at the faculty of those medical schools that I went to and trained at, there were very few women in positions of leadership. And so there weren't very many role models. My dean of students at Wake Forest was a female nephrologist. And so she was a huge role model for me.

And then I went to UAB, and I remember being asked in my interview, are you OK with being in a male-dominated program? Because you will be in a male-dominated program. I think there were 45 of us in my intern class, and eight of us were female. And I said, that's fine. But I had gone to a women's college, where obviously there were only women leading.

So it was a big change for me to go back into a situation where I had to assert my unique female leadership qualities, which are different, and still use those in an effective way to lead. Right now, I'm serving as a mentor also for a small liberal arts college, primarily those interested in going into medicine or nursing, and usually most of those have been female.

And so it's been a really great opportunity, because I've had very few mentors who were female, who were positive role models for me. So I think Leadership Development Program, one of the things they taught me was to go back and say thank you to your leaders and to be a leader for others. And specifically, as a female leader, I think that has been an important call for me.

After leaving Leadership Development Program, I went back and ran for the board of my clinic as the first female to be on my board. My clinic was started in the 1860s, I think right after the Civil War, and I'm still the only female on that board.

And I feel that it's important for me to stay there or to promote up more females within my clinic to be on that board because I think that having a diverse board helps in bringing different skill sets to the table. So I think Leadership Development Program gave me that courage to step up.

LECIA SEQUIST: That's inspiring. Congratulations on being the first woman and may there be more soon. Yeah. I don't know that I've felt that I was in as much of a male-dominated field up in Boston.

But certainly, leadership in my hospital and in my cancer center has been more male-dominated. And I think as I'm getting older now, I definitely appreciate-- of course, every individual has different leadership style.

So you can't just paint a broad brush and say men are this type of leader and women are that type of leader. Everyone's a little bit different. But in general, I think women do tend to have a different leadership style and one that is maybe, present company not included, one that's less talking and more listening.

And I think, when I was younger and trying to become a leader, I really felt out of peer pressure that I needed to talk more and sort of demonstrate more what a good leader I could be or what great thoughts I had.

And I've really come to embrace a more listening type of leadership, which I have been happy to say that younger women that I work with have come up to me privately and thanked me for.

And so I do think it's important to have all different types of role models for our junior faculty and all different types of styles, sort of on display and doing their best so that people can find something that matches with their own unique style to emulate.

PAT LOEHRER: One of the lessons I learned a long time ago from someone, and I loved it, a great leader is one that changes the conversation. And to your point of listening, but it's really changing the conversation, deflecting it around it so that other people are talking. But you have a little role in moving that around. And I always liked that.

MELISSA DILLMON: Today, I was listening to the National Press Conference, and I heard a definition of leadership that disturbed me. And I thought, I don't think that's my definition of leadership. So I think that defining what your type of leadership style is, is something that leadership development helped me with.

And then, once I knew what my leadership style was, then using those skills to pull together a team and achieve a goal, a common goal, not the description of leadership today, which was pushing something up a mountain and rolling over boulders and doing whatever you had to do to get your way.

I thought, well, that's not leadership, not my leadership. So I think that that was something that Leadership Development Program help me do is identify what my leadership style is and what kind of leader I want to be.

DAVID JOHNSON: So I want to follow up on a point that both of you are making in a slightly different way. And that is, who are your role models? I mean, apart from Pat and me, but who are your role models?

[CHUCKLES]

LECIA SEQUIST: I've had lots of role models over the years, and I think at the beginning, my role models were really people that I wanted to emulate and be just like them. And that probably started with Tom Lynch, who was my initial research mentor when I started in lung cancer.

And a lot of it was just the way he was with patients. I wanted to have that ability to make a patient feel just right at home from the first minute they walked in the door, which Tom is a master at.

But over time, I think my mentors or my heroes have more become people that are different than me. And I'm not trying to be like them. But I appreciate the ways in which they lead or in which they conduct something, like balancing their home life and their professional life in a way that's just different but I appreciate. And that, in lung cancer,

I would say another real big influence on my career has been Heather Wakely. She really has been my main female role model in my career. And she's given so much of her time to me and to so many to kind of sit and have personal talks and pep talks and strategies about what we're doing in our home institutions.

DAVID JOHNSON: Missy, what about you?

MELISSA DILLMON: So I would say from a professional standpoint, someone I respect and see as a mentor is actually now the female CEO of my clinic, who has been with my clinic for 20 years and worked her way up.

And I think that's because she has retained her femininity, but she is recognized as a tiger that no hospital or other clinic wants to make mad. So she has a way of leading and listening that is unique. And I have learned a lot from her over the years and watched her rise in her leadership skills as I have alongside of her.

And then, I will say from a personal perspective, one of the books I have enjoyed reading recently really talks a lot about servant leadership. And so I've really tried to identify servant leaders in my community and why it is that they're able to weather the storms of the last couple of years, for instance, and why their teams rally behind them and support them. And they're successful.

And my husband is a restaurant owner times three, opening two of those, one right before COVID and one during COVID and yet has been able to mobilize a team. And that's because he's a servant leader that will get back in the kitchen and make pastry cream if that's what needs to be done or make reservations.

And so I think during the last two years, what I have learned from that is to be a servant leader in the tough times has really helped rally my team and my clinic to be better and to continue to work, despite the challenges for our patients, for the bigger goal.

PAT LOEHRER: Love it. We recently had a guy give a talk here at IU, and the lecture was on being a visionary leader. And to be honest, it was fine. It was good, but being a servant leader and being part of a group is more important than being the one right up in front. And it's good to be a follower too as a leader.

So I really appreciate those comments. Just in a couple of sentences, I don't know if you guys could do this and reflect a little bit about your younger self. Say you're 21, and you could give yourself some advice now, what would those pieces of advice be?

LECIA SEQUIST: I think one thing, and that's the common thread I've heard among a lot of more senior people in medicine, or in any profession probably, is that the things that you think are disappointments at the time often turn out to be some of the greatest opportunities that you're faced with. You plan and you think things are going to go a certain way, and then something doesn't work out, and you're very disappointed.

But it's usually that process of how you deal with that disappointment that actually brings so much opportunity back to you. You can't see it at the moment. All you see is the disappointment. But I think that's a big lesson.

PAT LOEHRER: Terrific.

MELISSA DILLMON: So kind of similar to that, Lecia, doing our personality test this time, I wish I had done that same exact test 10 years ago, because I'd like to see what my leadership personality was 10 years ago versus now. I would not have scored as high in certain areas that I think I do now.

And I think that one of the biggest things I have learned is, I'm very much a person of tradition. And I like things to continue the way I expect them, and I like things to be planned and done in medical school in four years, done with fellowship. So I like a regimen and a routine. And I have learned over the years to be comfortable with change. And I wish I had learned that earlier and to be open to change and listening to new ideas.

I think that probably for the first few years of my practice and training, I was very much, this is the way it's done. And I think that that expressive part of my leadership had not developed yet. And I think that being open to change and looking at things in new ways, I wish I had learned that earlier.

DAVID JOHNSON: So we only have a few minutes left. And what we have done in previous episodes, we like to ask our guests to tell us the book they've read recently or maybe a documentary or something they've watched recently that they would recommend to our listeners.

LECIA SEQUIST: I really enjoyed the book The Four Winds by Kristin Hannah. That is a historical fiction about the Great Depression and the Dust Bowl and the migration of farmers from the Central Plains out to the West. And it was a really captivating book with a female protagonist. I enjoyed it quite a bit.

MELISSA DILLMON: It's funny. I read that one just a few months ago. I love historical fiction, but I would say recently, and I know it's not a new book, Andre Agassi's Open, his autobiography, I found fascinating.

I love sports, but it was very interesting to me to see how someone who's thrown into the limelight at a very early age and the pressure put on him by his parents and how that affected the course of his life.

I found it a fascinating book and very insightful. And I like to play tennis, but I'm not a tennis player. But I found it interesting as a parent, who's got several sports-minded children, it gave me some lessons about parenting and how to just raise your children and where the focus should be.

DAVID JOHNSON: Both my wife and daughter had been tennis players. I'm sure they would both love reading that book. Thanks for that recommendation.

LECIA SEQUIST: It's a great book.

DAVID JOHNSON: Well, that's really all the time we have for today. And Pat and I want to thank both of you, Missy and Lecia, for joining us. It's been a terrific conversation. Thank you so much for what you do. You're both, in our minds, fantastic leaders. You were when you arrived, and you certainly have been ever since. So thanks so much for that.

I want to thank all of our listeners for tuning in. This is Oncology, Et Cetera an ASCO Educational Podcast. And we really have talked about anything and everything. And we'd like to continue to do so. So if you have an idea for a topic or a guest, please email us at education@asco.org.

Thanks again for tuning in. And Pat, I just wanted you know I've ordered a chicken and an egg from Amazon.

[CHUCKLES]

PAT LOEHRER: It's because you couldn't quite make up your mind which was going to come first. I love it. I love it. You're the best. Thanks for doing this. And Dave, it's good to see you, as always. Take care.

DAVID JOHNSON: Thank you so much. We really, really appreciate it.

LECIA SEQUIST: Thank you.

MELISSA DILLMON: Great to speak with you. Bye.

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