KOL470 | Intellectual Property & Rights: Ayn Rand Fan Club 92 with Scott Schiff

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast: Episode 470. From my appearance on the Ayn Rand Fan Club with Scott Schiff and William. Their Shownotes: Patent attorney, Libertarian & Ayn Rand fan Stephan Kinsella joins William & Scott to talk about his history in the liberty world and his unique view that property rights should only pertain to physical things, and not to intellectual property. They also talk about Elon Musk opening his patents and the effects of IP law on AI. https://youtu.be/ax-QhyTGxw0?si=MyuQF4TfdeJQpQND Related: Classical Liberals, Libertarians, Anarchists and Others on Intellectual Property “The Death Throes of Pro-IP Libertarianism” (Mises Daily 2010) Yet another Randian recants on IP An Objectivist Recants on IP Pro-IP “Anarchists” and anti-IP Patent Attorneys Patent Lawyers Who Oppose Patent Law “The Four Historical Phases of IP Abolitionism” “The Origins of Libertarian IP Abolitionism” The Problem with Intellectual Property A Selection of my Best Articles and Speeches on IP Grok shownotes: Episode Overview In this episode of the Ayn Rand Fan Club, hosts Scott Schiff and William Swig engage in a thought-provoking discussion with Stephan Kinsella, a retired patent attorney, author, and libertarian thinker with a deep background in Ayn Rand’s Objectivism. The conversation delves into Kinsella’s journey from Objectivism to anarcho-capitalism, his critical stance on intellectual property (IP), and his broader views on libertarian principles. Recorded on August 18, 2025, the episode explores the philosophical and practical implications of IP laws, their impact on innovation, and their compatibility with property rights, while also touching on contemporary libertarian movements. Stephan Kinsella’s Background and Philosophical Evolution Kinsella shares his personal journey, starting with his introduction to Ayn Rand’s The Fountainhead in high school, which sparked his interest in Objectivism. Initially a “hardcore Objectivist” for eight years, he later gravitated toward Austrian economics and anarcho-capitalism, influenced by thinkers like Ludwig von Mises and Murray Rothbard. As a patent attorney in Houston, Texas, Kinsella began questioning the validity of IP laws in the early 1990s, finding existing justifications—whether utilitarian or Objectivist—unsatisfactory. His career as a patent lawyer, paradoxically, coincided with his growing opposition to the patent and copyright system, which he argues violates fundamental property rights. Critique of Intellectual Property Kinsella’s primary critique of IP centers on its violation of tangible property rights. He argues that patents and copyrights impose non-consensual restrictions, or “negative servitudes,” on how individuals can use their own property, such as a printing press or factory. Drawing from libertarian principles, he contends that property rights should stem from homesteading or contract, not state-granted monopolies. Kinsella rejects both utilitarian arguments (e.g., IP promotes innovation) and natural rights arguments (e.g., creators inherently own their ideas), asserting that there’s no empirical evidence for underproduction of creative works without IP and that the concept of owning labor or ideas is flawed, rooted in a misinterpretation of John Locke’s labor theory. Trademark, Defamation, and Reputation Rights The discussion extends to trademark and defamation laws, which Kinsella also opposes. He explains that trademark law, originally intended to prevent consumer fraud, has evolved into a “reputation right” that protects brands like Rolex or Chanel from dilution, even absent deception. He argues that fraud laws already suffice to address deceptive practices, rendering trademark law unnecessary. Similarly, Kinsella rejects defamation laws, asserting there’s no property right in one’s reputation, as it’s merely others’ opinions. He distinguishes incitement to violence as a separate issue, potentially actionable if it directly causes aggression, but maintains that reputation itself isn’t ownable. Impact of IP on Technology and Culture Kinsella highlights the detrimental effects of IP laws on technological and cultural progress, particularly in the digital age. He notes that patents and copyrights slow the diffusion of knowledge, stifling innovation in fields like AI, where restrictive licensing limits training data and outputs. He cites examples like Elon Musk and Twitter (now X) opening their patents to foster competition and market growth, arguing that IP creates unseen costs by suppressing projects like documentaries or software due to licensing hurdles. Kinsella emphasizes that competition, not monopoly protections, drives progress, challenging the notion that IP is necessary for profitability. Libertarian Principles and the Mises Caucus The conversation shifts to broader libertarian themes, including Kinsella’s involvement with the Mises Caucus, which took over the Libertarian Party to promote principled libertarian candidates. He discusses his work on clarifying property rights and non-aggression principles for the caucus, as well as his recent Universal Principles of Liberty document, which systematizes libertarian legal theory. Kinsella also addresses the controversy surrounding Javier Milei’s influence on the liberty movement, noting divisions among libertarians, with some seeing Milei as a beacon of hope and others, like Hans-Hermann Hoppe, criticizing his policies. Rights, Forfeiture, and Contextual Ethics In the final segment, Kinsella tackles the concept of rights forfeiture in the context of criminal acts, framing it as a semantic issue. He aligns with Ayn Rand’s non-aggression principle, distinguishing between unjustified initiation of force and justified defensive or responsive force. Rights, he argues, are contextual, as William suggests, and their recognition may shift based on actions like murder, though Kinsella prefers to avoid the term “forfeiture,” focusing instead on the justification of force in response to aggression. The episode concludes with reflections on Rand’s ethics, particularly the premoral choice to live, and the gradual cultural shift toward liberty through practical experience and technological advancement. Youtube transcript (cleaned up by Grok): Scott (0:00): Welcome to the Ayn Rand Fan Club. I'm Scott Schiff, along with William Swig. William, how are you today? William (0:07): I'm doing well. How are you? Scott: Good. Good. Well, I'm very pleased we have a well-known libertarian, retired patent attorney, author, and longtime Ayn Rand fan, Stephan Kinsella. Stephan, thank you for joining us today. Stephan (0:20): Glad to be here. Very glad. Scott: And before we get into all the IP stuff that I know is going to come up, can you just give us a little bit about your background story, even how you got into Ayn Rand and libertarianism? Stephan (0:36): Yeah, sure. I am a mostly retired patent attorney here in Houston, Texas. I'm from Louisiana, and I'm 59 years old. So, I was raised in the '70s and '80s in Louisiana, and I was always philosophical. I was into technology and all that, and science fiction. But in high school, I was at a Catholic high school in Baton Rouge, and a librarian who knew I liked literature, reading, and philosophy recommended that I read The Fountainhead. That was in 10th grade. So, I read The Fountainhead and got hooked, got really interested in Objectivism and philosophy. I would say I was a hardcore Objectivist for about eight years. I still consider myself to be an Objectivist if you go by the four main tenets. They probably wouldn’t have me, but I do subscribe to her four main tenets in general terms: egoism, reality, capitalism, individualism, that kind of stuff. I agree with all of it. Still do. Self-interest. But that led me to Mises, Rothbard, the Austrians, and the anarchists, and so I became way more interested in Austrian economics and anarchist theory around law school and college time. When I started practicing law in 1992, I started in oil and gas law at first in Houston, but then I switched to patent law soon after that for career reasons. And when I did that around '93 or '94, I started thinking and writing on libertarian topics like rights and stuff like that. So, I thought maybe I’ll turn my attention to the intellectual property issue because everyone else’s treatment of it was dissatisfying to me—like Galambos, Spooner, Rand, and the utilitarians. There was something wrong with all of their approaches. So, I thought, because I’m a patent attorney and a budding libertarian writer, I can figure it out. I was trying to justify intellectual property for a couple of years, reading everything I could, and finally, I realized why I kept failing: I was trying to justify the unjustifiable, to use, to mangle a Walter Block type of title. The reason I was failing and dissatisfied with all the arguments was that it was unjustified. So, I came to that conclusion right around the time I started practicing patent law. So, for my whole career, I was increasingly opposed to the patent and copyright system while I was doing it for a living. Scott (3:28): Did that affect that? Did judges know your view? Did you practice? Stephan: Well, at first, I tried to downplay my opinions. I would write as a hobby in libertarian journals and editorials and things like that. For my job, my career, I would write legal articles and things like that, and they were sort of separate. But I was a little bit worried that the word would get out that I was an anti-IP patent attorney, and it would hurt me with my partners and my clients. But of course, no one reads anything, and no one cares about it. It’d be like worrying that they would be worried about my religion or my sexual preference or something. No one cares, and they don’t read anything. And not only that,