We often point to nature in order to defend our own behaviour and patterns in human society. People will defend everything from violence, to rape, to male dominance by pointing to animal behaviour. But maybe instead of looking to defend patriarchy by looking to nature, we should look to nature for alternative structures and behaviours that challenge our own social norms.

When Caitlin Starowicz headed off to the Kenyan savannah, she found matriarchal and matrilineal societies that humans could certainly take cues from. Indeed, the king of the jungle may in fact be a queen.

Caitlin is co-director of a fascinating new documentary called Mommy Wildest, which follows female-led and female-centric lion, elephant, and baboon families, challenging the notion that male dominance is either the most natural or functional family structure.

In this episode, I speak with Caitlin about the documentary and what she learned from her time on the Kenyan savannah.