Ep 7: Can You Actually Improve Your Executive Function Skills? ft. Peg Dawson

Support based around Executive Function improvement promises a lot, but is there any evidence that you can actually improve your Executive Function skills? And if you can, what does the process look like and how can you truly measure you or your child's Executive Function improvement? In today's episode, we explore these questions and more with thought-leader Peg Dawson - an esteemed psychologist, expert in Executive Functions, and the co-author of the acclaimed book "Smart But Scattered" which she wrote with her colleague. Richard Guare, and has become essential readings for ADHD and Executive Function skill development.

I had an incredible time talking with Peg and learning from her wisdom. I also know you'll find endless amounts of valuable insight that you can use from our conversation in your own life.

Related Resources

Executive Skill Questionnaire-Revised

ESQ-R Self-Report Assessment Tool -This is the tool that Peg and I discuss in this episode. You can take it here, free!

Beyond BookSmart Reviews & Our Results - How Beyond BookSmart used the ESQ-R

Smart But Scattered books by Peg Dawson, EdD and Richard Guare

Smart But Scattered - The Smart But Scattered website

Helping Children and Teens Strengthen Executive Skills To Reach Their Full Potential (Parent Webinar) - This is the video I mention towards the end of the episode. A fantastic resource for learning more about EF skills.

Old Enough! - A Netflix show about Japanese toddlers who go out on errands.

Contact us!

Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com

IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Transcript

Hannah Choi 00:04

Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.

I heard from one of our listeners, Margy, who shared that she is really enjoying listening and would also like to learn a little bit more about executive function skills and deepen her understanding of how they impact us. Well, Margy will get her wish today, because for this episode, I got to have a conversation with Peg Dawson. Peg is an expert in the field of executive function skills, and the co-author of Smart but Scattered, which she wrote with her colleague Dick Guare. Smart but Scattered is one of the leading books on ADHD and executive function skills. I'll let her tell you more about herself and the work she does.

But before I dive into her conversation, I wanted to share that you'll hear us mention the 11 executive function skills throughout the podcast. If you're not familiar with all of them, I thought it might be helpful if I did a quick review. But before I do that, I wanted to mention one other thing that you might find interesting and valuable. You can discover your own strengths and challenges when it comes to executive function skills by using the Executive Skills Questionnaire, which is a tool that Peg and Dick developed. At Beyond BookSmart we also use this tool to help our clients measure their own executive function skills before and after working with their coach for some time. You'll hear Peg and I discuss the findings which I have to say are pretty promising. And definitely give hope to those of us who are forgetful, disorganized, or inattentive. Check out the show notes to find the link to this questionnaire.

Okay, so back to that review of executive function skills I told you I'd share. If you already know them, you are welcome to skip ahead about three minutes and jump straight to my conversation with Peg. Okay, so here we go. Executive function skills are the skills that we use to get through, or execute our days. These skills emerge and develop over the period of time from birth until about mid to late 20s. But like I just mentioned, it is possible to improve these skills beyond that age. I'm going to use Peg and Dick's list of executive function skills, which they have categorized into two groups, foundational skills, and advanced skills. If you'd like to learn even more about these skills, please check out the resources in the show notes for today's episode.

Okay, so first up are the foundational skills that are the first to emerge as kids grow. We've got response inhibition. And this is just a fancy way of describing impulse control. You know, being able to patiently wait your turn in the grocery store and holding back when you really just want to bag the guy's groceries for him because he is just taking too long. All right, next up, we've got working memory. And our working memory is what helps us hold on to information and then use it later on. And emotional control or emotional regulation. And that's the ability to manage and respond to our emotions in ways that are appropriate for the situation. And sustained attention is being able to stay focused on something that you're doing, even if you're distracted or bored or tired. And task initiation is just a big word that means getting yourself going on something, getting started. And cognitive flexibility, which is the last of the foundational skills is also known as flexible thinking and that's just being able to think of new solutions or being okay with last minute changes to plans.

Okay, so those are the foundational skills and next up the advanced skills. And according to Peg, these start to emerge in most kids around middle school, but they don't really get a good handle on them until much later. First up, we've got planning and prioritizing, and this is being able to figure out a good way to reach a goal or complete a task. And organization is well exactly what it sounds like. Time management is the ability to estimate how much time something will take and also figure out the best way to stay within set time limits. Goal directed persistence is basically just not giving up while you're working towards a goal. And metacognition is a very long word that means thinking about how we think. And this executive function skill helps us reflect on why we do what we do or don't do, and then use that reflection to come up with some ideas to help ourselves change. And the last EF skill which I love and Peg recently added to her list is stress tolerance and this is the ability to thrive in stressful situations and cope with change and uncertainty.

Okay, so now that I've successfully used my ability to maintain attention to the task of reading that list, maybe you can use your working memory to remember some of these skills while you're listening to our conversation. And perhaps this episode will inspire you to use cognitive flexibility and metacognition to come up with some ideas for how you can have a positive impact on your own executive function skill development. Alright, this is getting out of hand. Okay, now on to the show.

Hi, Peg. Thanks so much for joining me today. Do you want to introduce yourself a little bit to our listeners who don't know who you are?

Peg Dawson 05:41

Sure. Sure. Yeah. So my name is Peg Dawson. I worked as a school psychologist for many years in the public schools in Maine and New Hampshire. And then I, I went into a private practice with my colleague and ultimately my co author, guy named Dick Guare, Dr. Guare. And in that practice, we focused on kids and adults with learning and attention disorders. So I started working with kids with ADHD in particular a whole lot more once I left the public schools and started working in a clinic setting. And as I worked with that population, I pretty quickly realized that the American Psychiatric Association's diagnostic criteria for ADHD which is problems with attention or problems, or hyperactivity, impulsivity, or both, really didn't begin to describe the problems. I said, these kids having a huge problems with time management and planning and organization and those kinds of things. And I remember talking to my colleague Dick about at the time, he and I both did our doctoral work at the University of Virginia though we were there at different times. But he went on to do a postdoc in neuro psychology at Children's Hospital in Boston. So as I was describing these issues, these are, those are executive skills. So this is the late 80s, early 90s. And people were not using that term much in those days. So he and I decided we really wanted to understand these skills better, what are they? How do they develop? What's going on in the brain? How do they impact school performance? And of course, most importantly, how do you help kids with weak executive skills become more successful students. So that's what led to our writing. We wrote a book for professionals first, and then realized there was a huge role for parents in all this. So that's what led us to write Smart, but Scattered and more recently Smart, but Scattered Teens. We've written a book for adults as well called the Smart but Scattered Guide to Success. And we wrote a book on coaching quite a few years ago now, which we're just now revising, the revision should probably come out next year, I would guess. So that's my domain. And in more recent years, I've diminished, I've minimized my private practice in my clinical work and to emphasize doing webinars and trainings and professional development. So I work for some professional development companies, but I also get invited by schools to come in and talk with teachers about executive skills. And I teach an online coaching seminar every year, which attracts people from all over the world, actually. So. So that's, that's sort of where I ended up mostly during professional development training. That all started from working with kids with ADHD with executive so talented.

Hannah Choi 08:18

I love that. I love that trajectory. How wonderful. And I'm sure that there are just so many people in your past that have been so positively affected by all the work that you've done.

Peg Dawson 08:28

Yeah, no, I like to think so. I used to when I was a school psychologist, my husband used to tease me about trying to save the world one child at a time. I think he was onto something. Once I once I wrote books and realized so I can reach lots of kids by reaching their parents. So yeah, it feels like the work I've done has has stretched beyond saving the world one kid at a time.

Hannah Choi 08:53

Well, I have to say I just I had heard about your book, but I hadn't, I hadn't read it. And I am I am in the middle of it right now. And I my kids are 10 and 13 now and I sure wish that i i am using I am using it and going to use it and I'm a coach, so I know a lot of the strategies anyway but I just I love how you presented everything and it just it it I felt like it gave me a lot of permission as a parent to be okay with my own executive function challenges my own those skills that I am not so great at and it was really great to read that part. So if there's any parents listening right now and you feel like you're struggling with your own executive skill challenges, I recommend Peg's book because it really has made me feel better and like I said, my kids are a little bit older. And I'm still it's still getting benefit from it. So although I think my teenager could have also, like could have like co authored the book with you. She's got she's got incredible executive skills. I don't really understand it. Oh, yeah, it's, it's but you know, what's interesting is that I was looking at how you break them down into foundational skills and advanced skills. And, and you're right, like she's really got the foundational skills down. And I was just telling my husband the other day before I, before I learned about how you broke them down into the two categories, and I was telling him like, well, she still struggles with like metacognition and cognitive flexibility. And I'm like, oh, that's why, because they just haven't developed yet. So,

Peg Dawson 10:31

yeah, yeah, it's, it's really reaffirming to hear that. Again, we used to talk about all 11 skills. And we talked about them roughly in the order in which we think they emerged developmentally and then it's, it finally dawned on me. Now, there's a distinct difference between those advanced skills and those foundational skills. And I just find it particularly when I'm talking with, with parents, and teachers of middle school kids, in particular, to tell them, these skills are just emerging at this age. So let's understand that if you've got a kid who's struggling with planning, or organization and time management, that is totally age appropriate. Because so many people have this sort of expectation that kids are going to be proficient at that age, and they're just not so

Hannah Choi 11:16

yeah, I just just in the most recent podcast episode that we released, a, it was a conversation that I had between the mom of one of my clients, just me, and, and she, when I met her, she was in fourth grade, and now she's in eighth grade. And, and I've been working with her the whole time. And it's really neat to see, to see those executive skills emerging as the time has, has gone on. And also, you know, like, just maturity and all that, that goes hand in hand with all of that. And, and just yesterday, she's really, really demo- In our session yesterday, she really demonstrated that, that she's really moving into the some of the more advanced, advanced skills us it's exciting to see.

Peg Dawson 12:00

Yeah that's really gratifying to see. And, you know, for for kids with ADHD, again, I'm always preaching patients to parents. I don't know how many both kids themselves as young adults, but also parents of kids with ADHD, when they reached young adulthood, you said, you said, you know, wasn't till their their mid 20s. And it felt like this light went off or the switch changed or something. And so that's why I'm always saying you can't judge your child at 14 and make assumptions or predictions or what they're going to be like, at 24, 25. Because there are radical changes that occur in that time. And I think it gives some parents...

Hannah Choi 12:43

Yeah, right. I was just going to say like, what do you what do you say to someone who feels like, their child is never going to, you know, get to the point where they can do X, Y, and Z? You know, how do you how do you support parents who feel like, they're not changing fast enough? Or they're not, you know, becoming what they want them to be fast? Yeah,

Peg Dawson 13:02

yeah. Well, one of the things I say over and over again, is it progresses measured in years and not months with these kids. And yeah, and in fact, I had a school counselor who actually printed that cut it, printed it out, framed it put it on the wall in her office, because so many parents, middle school counselor, of course, so many parents coming in saying Why can't my kid do this, that or the other thing? And so I sometimes say to think back a year ago, can you see progress since a year ago? Because that's a more reasonable timeframe than to look at the child's six weeks ago. And and assume that they're not moving fast enough? Because we're talking about these are habits. I mean, I call executive skills, habits of mind, but we know it takes a long time to acquire a habit. And that's under normal conditions when the brain is not still developing. So so in a developing brain on top of that, and no wonder it takes time.

Hannah Choi 14:05

Yeah, no wonder that the progress is measured in years, not months. Reminds me of the other saying like progress, not perfection, right? We're just, we nobody's no one, even us adults, none of us are perfect in our executive function skills. Right? I'm sure that you, you have some that you don't feel confident about. And I do so.

Peg Dawson 14:24

Absolutely. And I do occasionally I do presentations for, for adults, or for companies in particular. In fact, my son works in North Carolina, and he's working in an organization that consults to textile co ops. And he asked me to come in and talk about executive skills last week, and I mean, it was simultaneously translated into Spanish because half the people were there were Guatemalan immigrants. And the other half are native English speakers, but everyone just gave them the questionnaire I said, talk about your strengths. How does that help you in the job? Talk about one of your challenges. How does that get in the way? And I haven't think a little about So what could you do to get better at it. But I've done this a couple of times my son, he's worked for a couple of different companies. And each time he reports afterwards, that people just feel much more comfortable talking about the things they struggle with. And it absolutely is true. And I have to say, this is where the work Dick and I did really opened our eyes. Because when we started writing and talking about executive skills, I think the general assumption was once you reach adulthood, your skills are should be all evenly and well developed across the board. As soon as we developed our questionnaire and started giving it out to audiences, we realized no, that's not true. In fact, we could have just looked at ourselves. And so I, I just, again, I find people sort of relaxed when they realize Oh, you mean, I'm not supposed to be perfect that anything was that's more like the exception than the rule. So yeah,

Hannah Choi 15:59

yeah, definitely. So the questionnaire that you're talking about? Could you explain a little bit about that? It's in your I know, it's in your book. And I know, we use it here at Beyond BookSmart to, to have our clients kind of check in with their own executive skill development. So can you tell us a little bit more about that.

Peg Dawson 16:16

So there are a bunch of different versions out there. There are versions for adults versions for parents and teachers to pull out on kids and we have versions for kids to go out. And so the original version, the one that's used the most identifies it had lists three items for executive skill and you basically - It's a very simple rating scale to take because if you're doing it by hand, you fill out the the items, you figure out what's the total score for each and you look at your high scores, those are your strengths, you look at your low scores, and those your weaknesses. The ESQ-R, which is the version that Beyond BookSmart uses, is a shortened version, it has 25 items, but they've been subjected to psychometric analysis to make them the best measures they can be. And from that, although we talked about 11 different skills, it really ends up that there are five primary skill sets that are all our items sort of fall into. And they think I can just get in them quickly. It's it's plan management, time management, organization, behavior regulation, and emotion regulation. And so this is now a survey which Beyond BookSmart uses, you can also find it on our website, you can actually take the questionnaire on our website, if you want to, which is smartbutscatteredkids.com. And we developed in part because we were hoping people would use it as a research instrument. I mean, we're using it now both mostly to educate people and to help them learn about themselves and learn about their kids with their students. But we really thought if we had something was a little more psychometrically sound, then it could be used for research purposes. And that's what started happening in part because it's free. Yeah, and I get I get letters from people in India and people in Malaysia asking to use it, and can they translate it into their language? And so it's now gotten a lot of use. And I think, and with some interesting results, in fact, the Beyond BookSmart results were as interesting as, as anything I've seen, in part because what Beyond BookSmart did was they look use it as a pretest and a post test. So before kids started coaching, and then after they'd been coaching for 16 weeks, to look to see if there were differences did any of their those five domains I described earlier, did they get stronger, and they found some really encouraging results starting with elementary aged kids. And so they broke it down into elementary, middle high school, college and adults. And across the board, they found some changes with some of the skills not all of them, but they would be the skills you would expect to see change through coaching. So it's Plan Management and time management in particular, as well as the composite score, the total score changes as well. But the other interesting thing is because I was just looking at the the report before we went on this podcast, I was just looking at it again. And what I found was that this this strongest the biggest impact is with college students and adults.

Hannah Choi 19:29

I saw that too.

Peg Dawson 19:30

So here's what I find this so encouraging, because people will say to me often I'm an adult, is it too late? No, it's not too late. And I've just recently started, I've been coaching and I haven't coached for years, but I've been coaching a couple of adults with different issues. And it's just it's been so much fun to see how quickly they can sort of grasp your ideas and your strategies and put them into effect and we're report back to you. I know it's fun to coach kids. But it's really those of us who coach adults find it to be really gratifying.

Hannah Choi 20:08

Yeah, I might Skyla my, my now eighth grader, she's my only school-aged client and all of my others are college and adults. So I get the satisfaction of working with college and adult students, it's really fun. That's really fun. Yeah, and a lot of them have sought out coaching on their own. So they're more more motivated, which actually makes me think of something, if you if a little bit shifting gears, but just had this idea, if so, when when when clients come to someone like me that, you know, mostly works with college and adult, they've sought it out themselves, they're not resistant to it, because they, they're oftentimes they're paying for it too. Or they're, you know, they're investing their own time and their own, you know, resources into it. But some of these kids come in reluctantly, and feel pretty frustrated on, like having to work on their executive skills. And I'm sure you've had a lot of experience with kids who are not interested in making any change, right? What do you like? How do you support kids like that? And how do you support the parents of those kids?

Peg Dawson 21:18

So our coaching process, and we felt this from the start, I mean, it's been it's evolved over the years. But right from the start, we felt like this has to be a voluntary process. This is not something where you can coerce a kid into to do I mean, you might be able to make a kid go see a tutor. And since the tutor is teaching academic subjects, maybe the kid will realize this will benefit me. Because it's clear, you know, I need help an algebra, here's the help, see, I do better on my tests, one of their executive skills issues involved, they tend to be not as clear cut to kids anyway. And they don't necessarily make a direct connection between my problems getting started on tasks, and what I might do with a coach. And so kids tend to, so we, early on, we said, we have to sort those out. And, and if you're looking to coach a kid, step one is to make sure they're voluntarily participating. Now, we have refined that over the years in that we found ways to persuade kids sometimes that coaching might be helpful, and our thought is well, and good coaches are able to do this with many kids that are reluctant kid, if they're willing to give it a shot for a few weeks, then they see the benefit. And then they're on board.

Hannah Choi 22:44

Yeah. And so soon as you develop that good rapport with them exactly. Get their buy in. Yeah.

Peg Dawson 22:49

And that's something that I think Beyond BookSmart is particularly good at, I think that's an emphasis in in how your your coaches work. And maybe how your training goes is, first of all, you try to match the kid with a coach that you think would be compatible. And and then you work at that relationship. And you recognize that that relationship is we especially with reluctant kids is going to be the key. If that relationship clicks, it'll work. If it doesn't click, it won't work. We've started also just in the last couple of years, putting a greater emphasis on training our coaches to use motivational interviewing techniques. And those are in motivational interviewing is just what it says interviewing in a way to help the individual feel motivated to want to change. And, and so once you incorporate that into the coaching process, then that to helps you sort out who's a good candidate for coaching and who's not. Because as you go through that motivational interviewing process, if the kid keeps putting up roadblocks, and you can't figure out how to get them to start taking down the roadblocks, then it's really probably a waste of time for for the kid and a waste of money for for the parent. And so I think and again, you probably do this to be on Bookstart we're, we're fairly, we recommend being fairly honest with parents upfront, both to try to assess them that I remember a few years ago, I had an eighth grader come in to see me and the parents thought he wasn't doing as well in school as they thought he should be. And so they thought they came in to see whether I could recommend a coach for them. And my first question was, does your kid want to work with a coach? Oh, no, no, he's dead set against it. I talked to the kid and I found out what his goals were. He had some goals so I sort of began the coaching process within like, what grades would you like to be earning? What do you think you need to do differently to earn those grades? And what we ended up and then Since I knew he didn't want to work with a coach, I said, So you think you need to bring your grades up? I've got a process for that. But you probably can't do it alone, you're gonna need help from someone so your mom could help you study for tests, or he was identified, he had a resource from teacher or your researcher and teacher could have been studied, as well with resource from teacher really didn't want the mom involved at all. So I contacted the resource from teachers that got this great template for studying for tests. Are you willing to do this with this kid? And she said, Sure, absolutely. So the deal I made with the kid was that if he brought his grades up to the level he wanted them to be, and it was A/Bs and he was capable of that. At the first marking period, at the first progress report, we would look at his grades. And if he had met his goal, I would not make recommended, I would not give the parents name, but coach. And then at the end of the marking period, again, if his grades were one, I still wouldn't get the parents name coach. I mean, the ironic thing was, the resource room teacher was his coach. And that was basically what she was doing. But in his mind, the coach was someone that you'd have to meet outside someone else on his own time as a stranger. So that's, you know, again, sometimes we can make deals with kids, too, to have that, but it won't last over time, if they're really not invested in the deals will work for a short period of time, but they won't work.

Hannah Choi 26:22

Right? It reminds me the idea of just meeting people where they are and and that you can't, you know, what does that like leading a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. And it just, I was thinking in your book, I loved how you how you talked about how, instead of trying to impose these things on the kids than it just set the situation up for them to find some success. And, and for you to as the parent to find some success, and just kind of meeting the kid, where are the, where are they where they are at that time. And I think just as humans, that works really well for all of us, even adults. So yeah,

Peg Dawson 27:03

Yeah, I'm always struck by how so every year I, I trained? Well, I have this past year and 50 people sign up for my coaching seminar, probably about 25 of them were were real, invested participants. And and so they did all the homework. And they did, they coached a kid and they gave me feedback. And I'm always struck by for some of these, and many of the people taking my coaching class are teachers. So they're used to being in the classroom, and they're used to being in charge and telling kids what to do. And when the light bulb goes off, and they say, well, it works a whole lot better when the kid is the one who's making the goal and the kid is one is deciding how they're gonna, strategy they're gonna use. So it's always, but it feels like we don't do that with kids enough, we don't empower them to understand that they can change and that they can take control. And they can be effective.

Hannah Choi 28:00

Yeah, somewhat related, but just the idea of empowering kids. I teach sewing lessons. And some of the parents I talked to are surprised to find out that the kids are going to use real sewing machines and real needles and real irons. And you know, they could get poked, and they got to be really careful. And I don't know if it's this day and age, but I do find that it seems like parents are afraid and like they want to protect their kids. So it often ends up that the kids are not being challenged with opportunities to learn these real skills.

Peg Dawson 28:33

Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting. I've, my son sent me this amazing map of years ago that was printed in some British magazine newspaper, which showed three or four generations of one family and in England, somewhere in the middle of England. And it basically showed it drew a circle around the area in which each generation at the age of seven was allowed to travel on their own. And it went from this giant space, like seven miles for the grandfather, whereas the current generation, it was this tiny little space. Okay, you can walk across the street. Yeah, across the street. Yeah, we definitely. And I actually blame the fact that there's so much media attention anytime something goes wrong. It's that and so we all have this catastrophe in our head that we think is just waiting to happen to our kids.

Hannah Choi 29:30

And it's cognitive distortion has a powerful grip on on our brains when we are exposed to so much media. My son is actually walking home from school by himself today for the first time. Three quarters of a mile, he's 10 is three quarters of a mile. He's in fourth grade. He's got a great sense of direction, so I know he'll be fine. So

Peg Dawson 29:50

I have my, my younger son lives in Japan and they have a son, who's seven and starting at age six When he was in first grade, he switched from a international school to a Japanese school. Starting in first grade, he, they, they shaped it gradually over time. But he now walks to the train station takes the train gets off, one train gets on another one gets to the school, takes a bus to the school, he does that all independently. And we visit. We've been in Japan several times. And it's amazing, you know, seven o'clock at night, and you see these tiny little kids on the subway because they've gone to after-school after school. Yeah. By themselves. So it's such

Hannah Choi 30:33

If you did that here someone would call the cops on you. Yeah.

Peg Dawson 30:36

It's such a cultural influence. Yeah, actually an executive skill development. You know, among other things, it's what we allow kids to explore, and to experience because executive skills don't have to be explicitly taught, if we give kids the opportunity to learn them, as they interact with their world in their environment.

Hannah Choi 30:59

Yeah, I spend. So my my client Skyla. You know, over four years, many of our sessions were just us talking, and me, modeling, you know, modeling cognitive flexibility or modeling, how I was going to plan my day. And I never said, this is how I'm going to do it, this is how you should do it. And I just hoped that, you know, the, that, that what I was trying to teach her was getting through, and it takes a long time, but you're truly meeting them where they are, when you do it that way, you know, you're not forcing anything on them. Yeah, and that's what I love about, about how executive skills can be taught to anyone in with any, by any means, you know, like for kids, it makes sense, okay, like, Let's practice some skills with schoolwork. Because that's the work that you do that is, you know, how you what you do to get through your day, you know, you do schoolwork. And then so for adults, you know, you can you know, their job or their managing their home or something. And I just I love that. I love that about it.

Peg Dawson 32:09

Yeah, I also think that when we explicitly label the skills for kids or for adults, that can actually speed up the learning process. So I get one of the women I'm one of the people I'm coaching now is a woman very bright in her 40s I think who she's had some medical issues. So she's out of work at the moment, trying to work her way back into work, grew up with an attention disorder, now went to an Ivy League college obviously worked really hard, but she ended up with this residual sense of she can't do things as well as other people can. And so when we meet, whenever I can, I point out that, you know, that's metacognition and that is one of your strengths. In fact, that's probably what got you to the level you're at in your job is that she just needs to hear that because she just thinks of herself as being terrible task initiation, terrible a time management, terrible a planning, saying, Yeah, but let's look at possibility. Let's look at metacognition. So

Hannah Choi 33:08

yeah, yeah. I that always makes me think it means I think in every conversation that I've had for this podcast, that talk, the idea of confidence has come up, and how working on executive skills really can boost your confidence. And for her, hearing that about her metacognition probably had a positive impact on her on the other areas that she feels like she's weak in. Right,

Peg Dawson 33:34

right. Yeah, I think it did is if you're good at metacognition, you can get planning eventually. Is such a huge component of metacognition and planning. So, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Hannah Choi 33:46

So that makes me think about this idea of, like, you know, just going back to parents in their own kids. And I feel like so much of the information out there articles that you read, and, you know, knowledge that's out there is for kids, and executive skill development, because of course, kids, kids frontal lobes are still developing, you know, we just, they just, they're not there yet. But, you know, just because, like you said before, just because we're adult adults doesn't mean our, you know, we're like, perfect and everything. So for parents that have areas that they struggle with, like, do you recommend that they work on their own along with their children's executive skill development? I've had some parents do that very effectively. And both parents was sort of the parent will share the profile with the kid. And whether it's a, they're struggling with the same executive skill or a different one. If they both agree, they're going to tackle whatever their challenges then the kid feels like, they're not the only one, you know, putting in all the work here. And several years ago, I saw a kid from the UK. And I had met the coach who was working with him at the time in the UK, but they spent their summers in Maine. And so he arranged, they arranged for the kid to come and be evaluated by me. He was 14. So I had him take the executive skills questionnaire. And he said, have you given this to my dad? Because the dad was the one who brought up? And I said, No, I said, Oh, I want my dad to take this. And so that ended up being a great conversation when I had, at the end of the session brought the data and then they could talk about because the kid and if you ask any kid, they can probably tell you, once they understand exactly what the dad strengths and weaknesses are, oh, yeah, but I do have, you know, a piece of advice that I give. And when I first started giving this to parents, or anybody in my workshops, I thought it was kind of whimsical, I thought, well, it's worth a shot. I don't know whether this will work or not, but I'll throw it out there. And so when I started building into my workshops, is when I consider the perfect intervention for executive skills. And this really helps adults who are dealing with their own executive skill challenges, because I again, I get that question from parents all the time, "I have the same issues. You know, I'm not consistent. I can't, I can't maintain an intervention over time. So what can I do?" So here's the perfect intervention. The perfect interventions for executive skill development, and there are two pieces to it is one that takes no more than five or 10 minutes a day, and that you're willing to do forever. So those two, okay, those two go hand in hand, if it took more than five or 10 minutes today, you couldn't keep it up. And I can guarantee you it won't take forever. But I can also guarantee you, it'll take longer than you think it should. But that doesn't mean you double the amount of time. No, it really. And so once I started talking about that, then I had all these parents sharing who they are, you know, I put in place a getting ready for school routine with my kid on the spectrum. I started in first grade. He's now in seventh grade. He's following that routine completely independently. It took six years, but he's there. And then I thought about how I got my own. So I have a son with ADHD, who's he's now in his 40s. But I thought about how I got him through high school. And that was every day when he came home from school, I asked them two questions, what do you have to do when you're going to do it? It was a five minute conversation. And as an adult. That's exactly what I ask my son every day, he still tells me that's how he basically plans his day, what do I have to do when will I do it? And so it really, if you if you're willing to play the long game, and you're willing to be patient, so now we're going back to patients again, then putting in place an intervention that you consistently follow? Five minutes a day for as long as it takes. It pays off. It really does. It reminds me of I'm I'm also reading at the same time, Atomic Habits by James Clear, and he is he says, you know, if you just like Do 1% every day, when you're eventually just gonna get better at it. Yeah. So yeah. Reminds me of that. Yeah, it doesn't have to be some grand, huge overhaul. And in fact, we you know, if you do the grand, huge overhaul, it's not sustainable. Yeah. Yeah. It might look pretty for a day but and then you're gonna feel bad about yourself. So not being able to do it.

Peg Dawson 38:27

I mean, looking back on my own sons who neither were a great students in middle school in high school. With each them, I put in one relatively elaborate system to get them to change, you know, it's like offering them rewards for oh, I remember my younger son was starting his homework before nine o'clock at night, and not complaining about it. And if he could go for six weeks, and I gave him a point for each one of those, and we could go for six weeks, if he had this many points, and he could buy the video game he wanted. That worked really well. I could never redo it, though. I remember when he was like a junior in high school, I said, I said, Can we work out a system where you know, you can earn something you want? I mean, you said, Mom, I gotta want to do it myself. I mean, that just basically. So can you say that I had to back off. You're saying you can't force me. I gotta want to do it myself. So yeah, yeah.

Hannah Choi 39:29

Well, that's great that he, I mean, that shows right, his metacognition.

Peg Dawson 39:34

Yeah, absolutely. And he knew what worked and what didn't work for him.

Hannah Choi 39:37

Do you have any questions for me?

Peg Dawson 39:39

So how long have you been coaching?

Hannah Choi 39:41

I started coaching in 2017 with Beyond BookSmart. Yep. And I had like a kind of a similar job before. I worked at a community college and the Office for Students with Disabilities and I helped kids take advantage of the services that they were that were, you know that were or given to them for whatever accommodations that they needed. So that's where I discovered my love for working with college kids.

Peg Dawson 40:05

Right, right. Yep. And so over the years since you started coaching, what? How has that practice evolved for? You mean? What is?

Hannah Choi 40:19

That's such a great question. And I know exactly how it has evolved, I have learned to trust the process. And I have learned to trust my relationship with the client. And that, and that if they trust me, and if I just relax and let go and let it happen naturally, that's where we're going to have the most success. And I remember when I first started coaching, feeling like, I put this pressure on myself to like, you know, teach a new, new strategy in each session, and you know, and like, have some kind of evidence of, you know, of improvement. And now I realize, looking back on it, like I was looking for really grand evidence, and all I needed was these little tiny, tiny shifts that are actually the nuggets of gold that you're looking for. And that's when you know, okay, now I can maybe push a little harder and ask for something else. And I think I was just expecting it to go faster, even though I had learned and I knew for my own kids and for myself, that, that it takes a really long time. And that it's not like a It's not like a switch that happens. So I would say like, for me, mostly, that's what I've learned, which has been good for my mental health, because I used to really put a lot of pressure on myself with my clients. If I didn't feel like my clients were making enough progress quickly enough. And, and so I'm much more relaxed now as a coach, and I think I'm a better coach. Right?

Peg Dawson 42:02

Yeah. I mean, that was the one of the dangers of wanting to see that kind of progress in whoever you're coaching is that that person feels that that pressure as well.

Hannah Choi 42:15

They pick up on it. In my experience, that's when they start lying. Did you follow your plan? They said no, yeah. No they didn't. They just didn't want to make you feel bad. Yeah, that's right. I shouldn't admit this. But one of my first clients, he lied to me and his parents for an entire semester that he was doing well in school. Yeah. He got a D and one class, but the rest he was failing. So it was Yeah, yeah, you've really you. You have to suss it out. Yeah. And a lot of that comes down to just trust.

Peg Dawson 42:56

I think one of the coaches that I trained in that I get together with frequently via zoom, and she says, she, one of the things she makes clear to kids is this is a no blame zone and a no shame zone. So yeah, if you communicate that in a way that the kid trusts that, that you're honest about that, then they're going to be able to come in and say, Yeah, I was intending to do that. But and

Hannah Choi 43:19

so that's what I started doing. I think probably around the time that that that happened with that student, I started telling every time for the first few few sessions, just to remind them that this is a judgment-free zone. And I And if I ask a question, it comes out of completely out of curiosity. No judgment. Yeah. Yeah. That's nice. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no judgement at all. Yeah. And it's hard. I think, like, inside, right, we just naturally judge people, we have to for survival. You know, it's like a thing that we've just evolutionary, like, have done like, for 1000s of years. And I think that it's, you just like, we know, internally, we're judging people, whether we want to or not, that bias is just there. And so we know that we are doing that. So we kind of might assume someone else is doing it. And so it's hard. It's hard to learn to trust someone that you can really be honest with them. Especially like if there's an age difference, right. Oh, like, are you just another parent? Or can I actually truly just not that they can't trust their parents? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's just so important. And I guess with any relationship, right? Any relationship that you develop with anybody is developing that trust. Cool, well, what if you could choose one thing for people to take away from all the work that you've done over the course of your, your career? What would it be? If it's possible to choose one?

Peg Dawson 44:55

But I guess the message I want people to understand it. And this may be more for teachers and parents, but I think there's some overlap there is that executive skills are the skills that support learning. And if we don't peel away the the surface learning to understand the skills that require that are required to get there, then we're missing the opportunity to help kids understand the learning process better. And so that combined with it takes time progress is measured. Yeah those are the two things.

Hannah Choi 45:40

And that's, that's a really hard, it's, it's hard, I think. I mean, I would, if I could guess I bet that's that, the biggest part that's hard for people is that making any kind of change, I mean, if you even if you're just exercising, like I'm training for a half marathon right now, and it takes I was take a break in between races, and he's take so long to get back into it. And, and even though I know, like, I know, because I've done it before I've done it so many times before I know I'm gonna get there is still so hard to just relax and say, It's okay, Hannah, it's gonna happen, you're gonna be able to run 13.1 miles. But it's hard to trust that. And so especially when it's your kids, you just want them to be successful in the world, and you don't have to worry about them, and you don't want to have to friction with them. And you just want them to be what be themselves in, you know, in in a successful way. And it's so hard to, to just trust that eventually that'll happen.

Peg Dawson 46:44

And I think it's also made harder by the fact that unfortunately, school emphasizes getting things right. As opposed to getting things. We're not focusing on learning. We're, we're focusing on passing tests, and not making mistakes. And we all know, that's not the way you learn, you learn from your mistakes. And so, and I, my guess, is if we've looked at all the education systems out there, the ones where, where kids are at the top in terms of how they're acquiring academic skills, it's those where that's what teachers are emphasizing then. So for instance, I'm sure in Japanese schools, they might teach math by giving kids a tough math problem to do that, just at the limits of their understanding of them. They put them together in a group and the kids say, Okay, now solve this problem. And they check in on them periodically, but there's no stress that you got to get it right. It's, can you figure out the process? And it's just, I think that's one of my biggest issues with how American education and it's not just American education and a lot of education system,

Hannah Choi 47:55

if that's what you know, because yeah, yeah, my, my kids are both going through standardized testing right now, like today, as we speak, and it's really stressful for them. And they're both good students, and they don't find school difficult. But the the, the action of being tested, is stressful, especially for my son, he is very concerned about getting it right. And I've, we've told him so many times, you know, we don't care, we you know, we don't if it's if it's stressful for you, we don't want it to be stressful for you, you just go in and do your best. And, you know, it's hard for him. And that just just kills me to, to see them going through that. So do you have anything that you're excited about that you'd like to share with everyone?

Peg Dawson 48:41

No, I just, I guess, I mean, I'm 72 years old. So the question is, when am I going to retire? My husband's already retired. So he keeps talking to me about something, when are you going to retire? And and I guess, the fact that I'm still working just tells you that I'm excited about what I'm doing, because I don't need to be working. I mean, I am planning for retirement, and I am trying to think about so how, how can what I've done continue without me so that when people write and say, Can you do this? I say no, I'm retired now.

Hannah Choi 49:19

But I have this fabulous person who can do it for me. So yeah, yeah. Well, what a legacy you're you'll you'll leave when you are able to transition into that period of your life. So and where can our listeners find you and your work?

Peg Dawson 49:34

So we have a website smartbutscatteredkids.com. And so there are a number of resources on that website, as well as links to some trainings I've done. There's a parent, a one hour, maybe a little over that. When our parent presentation that I do that was recorded when I was in San Diego last year, which they didn't.

Hannah Choi 49:57

I watched that! I thought it was GREAT. I loved it!

Peg Dawson 50:00

Didn't they do a nice job with editing it?

Hannah Choi 50:02

They really did. It was so good. It was classy classy production. And you looked great. And you sounded great. It was really interesting.

Peg Dawson 50:13

And in fact, if possible, I'd like to put a link from my website to Beyond BookSmart for this interview, so that because that's another way that people could could discover.

Hannah Choi 50:25

Yeah, for our listeners, I'll put everything. I'll put everything in the show notes. So you can find Peg and everything that she's done, and definitely watch that presentation that she's talking about. Thanks. High quality good stuff. Great. All right. Well, thank you so much.

Peg Dawson 50:40

Thank you. This was fun.

Hannah Choi 50:44

And that's our show for today. I really hope you found something useful in my conversation with Peg. And I hope that you learned something that you didn't know about executive function skills. I'm truly so glad you're here and that you took time out of your day to listen, be sure to check out the show notes for this episode on our website and subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We send out an email after every episode with links to resources and tools we mentioned. And if you have a minute, please help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends. Thanks for listening!