In this conversation, the Sander Dur and Jose Casal discuss finding happiness in everyday life and the importance of incremental achievements. They also explore the role of leaders as organizational gardeners and the need to create environments for people to thrive.

The definition of business agility is examined, along with the future of Agile and business agility. Jose shares insights on the evolution of work and hierarchy, the need for better incentives, and the surprises of change and transformation.

Sander and Jose discuss the future of large organizations and the concept of a federation of micro businesses. The conversation concludes with a focus on dynamic team formation and the importance of cleaning up legacy products and services.

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