Sandman, a leading figure in the MGTOW community, joins Simone and Malcolm to discuss high-tech reproductive strategies. They explore surrogacy, genetic selection, artificial wombs, sexbots, and more ways men can have children without partners. Other topics include all-male vs all-female societies, economics, and virtual intimacy technologies.

Sandman: [00:00:00] a lot of guys are also looking for, they want loverbots or sexbots because they're trying to, you're trying to compartmentalize every aspect of what you would get from a woman and take technology and replace everything. And this is something that a lot of women that I've spoken to, they get really oppity because it's, it makes, it creates obsolescence, right?

Sandman: Why would they choose a real life woman versus using the technology.

Simone: Yeah. And I, I do, I thought that's one of my favorite arguments that I see like within MGTOW, just Hey, listen, when you look at.

Simone: The difference between a suboptimal relationship with a spouse where you're paying a lot extra for everything versus like getting everything piecemeal. It really is crazy that people would choose to have a suboptimal relationship with a spouse to do all this.

Would you like to know more?

Malcolm: hello. It is so wonderful to be here with you today, Simone. We have a wonderful guest today. So actually [00:01:00] before he reached out to us, he was on an email list for us to reach out to, because we were interested in reaching out to the people in the MGTOW community. And I was like, okay, so who are the top MGTOW people these days?

Malcolm: And I looked and the first name was Sandman. who they called the Mount Rushmore of the MGTOW community. And so I was like, wow, he's already, that's amazing. IDs travel in similar circles. So for people who aren't familiar with the MGTOW community this stands for Men Going Their Own Way which is a cultural response to the raw deal.

Malcolm: Many men feel they're getting a society today and you can correct me if I said anything wrong there, but what is our topic today, Simone?

Simone: We are going to talk about something way beyond the basics of MGTOW, which is reproductive strategy, because just because you may be opting out of like traditional relationships with women doesn't mean that you don't want to have.

Simone: Kids, so it doesn't

Malcolm: mean that you don't want your cultural group to survive into the future.

Simone: Exactly. So what do, how can we use technology and different [00:02:00] strategies?

Malcolm: How can we make MGTOW an intergenerationally durable cultural group? Okay. So

Sandman: The first thing when I started my channel back in end of 2013, the first thing that came to mind was I don't want to get married, but I still want to have children. So how am I going to pull this off? And the first thing I looked at was gestational surrogacy. And you can go and buy eggs for five, 6, 000 on the open market.

Sandman: And then you can go and pay for a surrogate in another country and then you can reproduce and you can have all the children you want. And so when I put that video out, I got a good response, but a lot of women were very upset because they said you're depriving the children of a mother. They said, you're, yes, this is the argument that was being thrown around.

Sandman: It's not fair for you to deprive. The child, and I'm thinking to myself, but what about all the single mothers out there that are depriving their children of fathers?

Malcolm: Just to add to this, because the audience might not be familiar with this statistic, is that there's been a lot of studies on this, and while coming from a [00:03:00] single mother household has a lot of negative implications on children.

Malcolm: Long term single father households actually don't have that many negative implications. Sick birth of mothers. There's alternative reasons why this might be the case. It might be that they typically because courts so disproportionately favor women, divorce courts do, that really the only time that when people get a divorce or In the relationship for some sort of bad reason, the kids are going to the mother.

Malcolm: But if one of the parents dies, then it's going to the father. That could be what's causing this in the data. But it is just a true thing in most of the data that being a single father has much better implications than being a single mother. Continue.

Sandman: So about five or ten different guys over the years have contacted me and they've told me that they've tried gestational surrogacy either in Ukraine.

Sandman: Or in Africa or in Mexico when I first saw what was going on, I thought, okay, I'm going to do India because India seemed to be the most cost effective at the time you could get for 12, 000. Roughly. You could basically have a child. Yeah. You're looking at the cost is very low. [00:04:00] It's not just that it's also to do with genetic selection.

Sandman: I know you guys are very involved in genetic selection, when you go through. You can pick through all the different surrogates. So if you're a five foot five short man lit you're not going to get many women to date you and have reproduced reproduction with you. So what you want to do is you want to go and find someone that's, five foot, nine, five foot, 10, six feet tall.

Sandman: Blonde hair. Sorry. Yeah. Blonde hair blue eyes. And then you can basically up your value, up the value of your children and get them higher in the sexual marketplace that way.

Simone: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But you could

Malcolm: really spam that using, college and our score

Simone: selection. Yeah,

Malcolm: so you want to talk about the cost of that, Simone, just so yeah,

Simone: First, if we're talking about the cost of surrogacy it's typically well over a hundred thousand dollars in the United States.

Malcolm: I'm asking is what would be the marginal cost if he was able to do this in India to do the polygenic risk score selection?

Simone: It's non trivial now, and hopefully it will be a lot less expensive in the future. So right [00:05:00] now, I think genomic prediction, which is the gold standard of like your typical getting it started, polygenic risk score selection, I think is around like 400 per embryo with a sort of minimum

Malcolm: fee.

Malcolm: But that would allow you to look at things like height for every one of those embryos? No.

Simone: Not exactly. They don't tell you that? They don't tell you height. Genomic prediction only tells you a series of politically correct health

Malcolm: scores. So you need to export the data and send it to other people? Yeah,

Simone: so you need to export it and then upload it to other platforms.

Simone: Self decode being one that's more affordable and also like publicly open about yes, we'll accept genomic prediction exports. Yes, we have a variety of scores. I don't know if currently they have one for height though. So there are other groups

Malcolm: that do. Yeah,

Simone: It's just, it is not cheap.

Sandman: Okay India banned banned everything about, I think it was about 10 or 11 years ago. So just as I was looking at, yes, they did. So it was banned for foreigners and was banned for single individuals. So they, yeah they're, the discrimination is getting pretty [00:06:00] crazy. You can look at places like Mexico, a lot of people are doing Africa now.

Sandman: So that seems to be Ukraine was always a possibility for a while, obviously not anymore right now. So that was what was going on. And then over time, I thought to myself, this is a good reproductive strategy, but I came upon some health issues. So I decided, okay that's not going to really work for me.

Sandman: So what could, what else, what other health strategies, what other reproductive strategies could I implement? And so I look at Elon Musk and I look at his reproductive strategy as. What I would like to call spray and pray right? So he's just going out there and reproducing with as many women as he can. I think he's up to 11, 12, 13 children right now.

Sandman: And but he doesn't have the, he does not implementing a cultural strategy. And this is something that Malcolm brought up. It's not, it's 1 thing to pass your genes down to the next generation. But how do you ensure 345 generations down the road. And that's something that I didn't really think [00:07:00] about.

Sandman: And so my idea was, when I get older, when I'm standing in my 60s or 70s, I pay for a bunch of surrogates. I have 10 different children. I put them up for adoption. With different, different people who have, they're financially successful and I can put them up in different parts of the world, which increases the possibility of survival in case there's like a thermonuclear war or something ridiculous, right?

Sandman: So that was the strategy. So now I'm thinking that's not going to work. So now I'm looking at. other strategies, which, if in the next few years, if I get my autoimmune issues under control and, Bitcoin does what it's supposed to, then I'm thinking probably within, five, six years, I might.

Sandman: implement the surrogacy strategy. So that's where I'm at right now.

Simone: Yeah. What I would say is it doesn't even matter how many kids you immediately have. If you're thinking about the long term impact culturally, whatever that you would have through children, it doesn't matter how many kids you have.

Simone: It matters how many grandkids you have and how many, kids, they haven't [00:08:00] turned. So like someone could have 10 kids, someone could have 30 kids. And if those kids all hate you and either don't have kids at all, or don't pass on anything related to you, then like you might as well have done

Malcolm: nothing.

Malcolm: So we've also got to keep in mind that MGTOW cultural strategies are going to become more viable in the future. Artificial womb technology is getting nearer and nearer to viable. And that could make having kids without a partner. Very inexpensive. It could even make yeah, different types of genetic

Sandman: recombination possible.

Sandman: But as you guys know it's not just the cost of reproduction. It's the cost of daycare and all the other stuff. It's probably way more in the end. Like what a lot of people have been thinking about in terms of reproduction for MGTOW is, there's a holy, there's a few holy grail technologies that will allow these things to happen.

Sandman: So one of those is artificial wombs. Yes. But a lot of guys are also looking for, they want loverbots or sexbots because they're trying to, you're trying to compartmentalize every aspect of what you would get from a woman [00:09:00] and take technology and replace everything. And this is something that a lot of women that I've spoken to, they get really oppity because it's, it makes, it creates obsolescence, right?

Sandman: In certain ways, and all of a sudden it limits their ability to mate select because if all of a sudden you have 70, 80, 90% of the male population that can gain access to these technologies, then why would they choose a real life woman versus using the technology.

Simone: Yeah. And I, I do, I thought that's one of my favorite arguments that I see like within MGTOW, just Hey, listen, when you look at.

Simone: The difference between a suboptimal relationship with a spouse where you're paying a lot extra for everything versus like getting everything piecemeal. It really is crazy that people would choose to have a suboptimal relationship with a spouse to do all this.

Simone: So like it's exciting and yes, with IVG. In the future. And who knows, like how far Malcolm, what's your estimate on like where we will be with [00:10:00] artificial wombs and in future, I think

Malcolm: our kids will almost certainly 99% probability have access to them when they decide to have kids.

Simone: What about people today watching this?

Simone: You just I don't know,

Malcolm: 10 years could be 20 years. It's difficult to say exactly and the problem is that a lot of this stuff has to be done in secret because, the public mores are so against it right now. And I think that's a really interesting thing that's talked about a lot in the MGTOW community, which I don't think the general public is as aware of.

Malcolm: So I, I want to talk about this subject a little. The way that feminist groups really freak out. about stuff like sex bots in a way that like, okay, obviously, so the perception often within the MGTOW community around this is they cognizantly understand how this lowers their power on sexual marketplaces.

Malcolm: And that's why they're reacting this way. But I don't feel like they're thinking about it. Like

Simone: does it even lower their power? Like

Sandman: They feel like it lowers their power versus anything. So for example, I was okay. So [00:11:00] I've been working on my own version of a. I wouldn't call it a sex bot.

Sandman: I would call it more like a virtual sex system. The way it works is it projects a real life woman into the sex doll. So that you interact with the real woman, and you're stimulating the technology, but there's this technology on the other end that's stimulating her. So you're actually able to have sex, we're digitizing everything.

Sandman: We're digitizing

Malcolm: Teladildonics is what this field is called, by the way.

Simone: Wait, is that an actual word?

Malcolm: Yes. Yeah. I looked into it for a while. I thought there were some interesting opportunities in

Sandman: the field. Why

Simone: not just in AI though? Like why involve a woman at all?

Sandman: Okay. So when I first introduced the technology to a couple women, they got very hostile.

Sandman: So my instinct, my, for my white knighting instinct was activated. Okay. And I thought like, how could I make this woman feel more comfortable about what I was saying? Oh, and I, my subconscious just said, I'm not going to just replace women with an AI. I'm going to, I'm going to allow you to interact with the man through the technology.

Sandman: And all of [00:12:00] a sudden the mood and the hostility just disappeared because all of a sudden the hamster in her head started running and the hamster figured out, okay. If I can use this technology, then I can have a new way to exploit the simpish population over the internet. It's the next OnlyFans.

Sandman: Yes, because with the way the technology, like the way I've developed the technology, like I've got, like I can show you guys crude pieces of prototypes. The first thing is it uses a sex doll, right? So the sex doll, but you take the head, the sex doll heads are like. removable. So you can unscrew the sex doll head.

Sandman: Then what you do is you put a plastic see through transparent plastic head on there. And then you put an ultra short throw projector in the back. So it projects the person out. And then the dolls have a vaginal insert. So you take the vaginal insert out and you put one in with sensors. So that literally picks up all your thrusts.

Sandman: And so digitizes your thrusts. She can see you through the through the [00:13:00] face and she can interact with you. And then on her end, there's technology that's capturing her face in real time. And there's also the teledildonics that are thrusting in and out. You can use all kinds of different

Simone: technologies.

Simone: I'm sorry, I'm like so seven years old. This is so funny, teledildonics. I just, I don't know. I feel like I would, as a guy, as a girl, I would prefer like my waifu slash husbando to do this. That's like not a human. You'd like a complete AI. But no, I

Malcolm: mean, so I so one thing he said that I thought was really interesting, that I think is interesting is the economics of this.

Malcolm: Yeah. Look at current ways that women can. I don't know. What did you want to say? Exploit or whatever. Get money from men on the internet. They are typically one to many approaches. Yeah. Which mean that the very best women just completely mop up. This is, whether it's OnlyFans, Or sex chat, chatting websites or something like that.

Malcolm: What makes this technology unique is that it monopolizes a woman's time with one guy for a longer period of time. So it's actually much more [00:14:00] democratizing of women's ability to make money in online environments, which in many ways. Yeah, that's interesting.

Simone: This is so not where I thought the conversation was going to go, Sandman, when you mentioned I want to figure out how to also, replace the elements of a female presence in the home.

Simone: I'm picturing Mother from the Umbrella Academy, which I'm not sure if you've watched that show, but there's just Yes. Yes. Yeah this robotic 1950s trad wife.

Sandman: In terms of replacing, there's technologies like they're creating robot shops and you can, I've got like a vacuum that kind of just does its own thing and all that kind of stuff.

Sandman: Those are just appliances that kind of do that. But to have a, you have to think about this technology. We can't get to a full Android within the next. 50 100. Like it's going to take a long time. So you have to look at all the intermediate steps between like full android and where we are today and how you have to push the technology forward.

Sandman: You have to start working on those intermediate steps and making them good, right? [00:15:00] So because if you create, if I create My virtual sex system, then people will see the possibility and they'll start adding more things to it, right? So all of a sudden there'll be sensors built into the doll so you can touch it and there's all there's already cloth that women can wear That'll actually transmit like the feel of somebody else from it from a distance So

Malcolm: this is something that's really interesting.

Malcolm: So I'm thinking You know, when you were talking about the mother system, okay, let's talk 50 100 years in the future, right? You would be able to easily likely have an AI that is shared between both your sexual release mechanisms and the mothering figure in the household, right? So it's the same personality to many extent but like different aspects of it for different environments.

Malcolm: So you can have the best of all worlds, But once you do that, and, women could do something similar, and once you don't need somebody of the opposite gender to have a kid or opposite sex, is more politically correct to say. I don't know which one's more politically correct these days.

Malcolm: Once you don't need someone of the opposite [00:16:00] sex to have a kid that then how many people, if we're talking about the percentage of durable cultural groups that survive, how many of them will actually keep up this male female dynamic versus how many of them will be just totally male cultures with simulated female partners and totally female cultures with simulated male partners.

Sandman: We also have to think about the advantage of having a society where it's. 90, 90 plus percent males versus more females because the males are going to pay more tax. The males are going to work more, but again, AI could make all of that irrelevant. So we don't know, there's so many unknowns at this point.

Sandman: But I'm definitely thinking. In terms of so let's say you got, you take 90% males and say they choose to reproduce. We don't know if people are, would even reproduce if you gave them these options. Like we're getting to this point where society is atomizing so much that I don't know.

Sandman: Like we're looking for solutions. It's almost like you have to [00:17:00] cater to people's narcissism, and that's another one of the things I was going to bring up in terms of reproduction. There's a show I mentioned to Malcolm called Foundation. Uh, Yes. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. And, And there's the Kleon dynasty, genetic dynasty.

Sandman: And every single version of Kleon is a clone. So if you create... Like a lineage where you're passing your clone down, you're going from one generation to the next, then it, what your aptitudes are, what your strengths and weaknesses are. So you can, you're more likely to guide the clone forward.

Sandman: And also a clone would be technically your brother. And you would be the father at the same time because Go ahead. Yeah. No.

Malcolm: What I liked about this and we talked about this and we're talking about on the call is it would allow for culture to become a lot weirder and a lot more specialized.

Malcolm: Right now we talk about to, to some extent cultures co evolve with different groups, right? Because each the culture is putting a pressure on the genetics and the genetics is putting a pressure on the culture. But if you had a, a pure breeding, like a, that means that you have the same genetics within each generation.

Malcolm: [00:18:00] It's what you talk about in mice or something like that, like bred pure. It doesn't mean like pure as in like ethnically. Anyway, if you have a pure breeding, like same genes, every generation. Individual and then a culture that's adapting itself within that group, I think it would become pretty radically different than anything we see in society today to the point that you were making, because you could know exactly not just what strengths and weaknesses your kid is going to have, but what strengths and weaknesses your great grandkid is going to have.

Malcolm: Yes. Which changes a lot. Also, if you don't need to prime somebody to look for a partner, that changes a lot of how they, they structure their lives, for example.

Simone: How do you think so let's say that there is like this isolated male society, where it's really just men. How do you think culture would be different, especially when like women are no longer a point of stress or strife?

Sandman: I've crawled over, I've gone through most of the old west. I've gone through all ghost towns and I've seen, you get. Yeah, that was that world, right? Yeah, because you get 80, 90% males and you get 10%, [00:19:00] 15% females. It's really interesting because.

Sandman: The jobs for women are usually prostitute and barmaid and, it's it's limited,

Simone: They're not really part of society. They really almost are more like sex dolls in that world, right? Because they're not even really just citizens. They're there to provide a service, right?

Simone: Yeah,

Sandman: exactly. And there's this one town called Castle Dome. It's in Arizona, just outside of Yuma. And when I went down there there's this bathtub that these prostitutes would haul from town to bathe the Johns because they didn't want to, they wanted to make sure they were clean, as clean as possible, yeah. You're seeing, you're going to see If you have a mostly male society, like I said, it would out compete societies that were more 50 50 or societies that had more females in them, simply because... Males spend more time working and paying taxes. So there's a New Zealand study that shows that men pay 150, 000 more in their lifetimes to tax in New Zealand than they actually take out.

Sandman: So it's so yeah, [00:20:00] and to

Malcolm: be clear, he's saying that they would outcompete economically speaking. They likely in current scenarios wouldn't outcompete in terms of fertility rates, but new technology. Could unlock that and if people are wondering to Simone's question What does an all male versus all female society look like a fun now keep in mind This has some staging to it and stuff like that But if you want to get a feel for the differences, there was a survivor season Where they separated people into an all male and all female group.

Malcolm: It wasn't really Yeah, and they created very different intra group cultures, and I think the intra group cultures they created. It explains to me why it is so prevalent among the friend groups. I know to be like of women, right? We'll have kids. We can have kids without men, and then we'll create a group where it's all of us.

Malcolm: Single moms working together to raise our kids. And yet none of these groups has ever survived more than six months that I'm aware of. And I think that episode shows why.

Sandman: Not that episode sees it or whatever. I also think that a male, all male society would be hot, more highly disagreeable.

Sandman: If you look at the Old West, it's obviously like they're [00:21:00] shootings and there's lootings all over the place. It has to do with just men not, getting angry, getting on each other's nerves and figuring out ways to relieve the violence with, relieve the anger with violence.

Sandman: So that's another thing.

Simone: One of my questions, though, is don't, isn't one of the reasons why, for example, men on average contribute more in tax dollars is because when they have children, their female partners are often participating in that in a way that doesn't show up in, The modern economy, like uncompensated labor because women on average just prefer to do that work.

Simone: So they pick it up there's, there must be some numbers that are off there, right?

Malcolm: It's

Sandman: the whole, the whole gender pay gap argument, and the gender pay gap argument, women's, they take more time off for raising the young. So that's going to affect their earnings potential down the road.

Sandman: It's going to affect their earnings potential immediately. Men also typically work. More overtime hours, so that, so when a man is in love, he's more likely to put more effort into this [00:22:00] family and put more effort into things. I've seen this, you've seen this, we've all looked at that.

Sandman: But my

Simone: concern is that if men now are solely responsible for raising kids, like also theoretically, that they're. Contribution to GDP will take a hit or at least their contribution to measured financial GDP will take a hit. The

Malcolm: other thing to keep in mind, Simone, is that if you look at low skill jobs that pay a lot, they are disproportionately male held jobs.

Malcolm: Yeah. You're looking at like high danger jobs, high, et cetera. But here's what I think we can forget about this. If you had a society that was only men would also have to sort into the low skilled jobs that are disproportionately female today that are lower paying, like teacher, et cetera.

Sandman: Yeah, it's Malcolm is bringing up the it's, the three Ds, dangerous, difficult, and dirty jobs. Those are the jobs that men typically will do.

Malcolm: Yeah. Yeah, they'd be forced to take the jobs that women are also taking now in an all male society. So you might have a [00:23:00] less of an inherent GDP gain unless you could show that within equivalent jobs that men led to more efficient outcomes.

Malcolm: I don't know if there's data on

Sandman: that. I'd be open to it, but things are changing. If you're looking at earnings potential women in their twenties are now way out earning men in their twenties. So it's starting to flip. It's starting to go the

Malcolm: other way. Oh

Simone: yeah. Yeah.

Simone: Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm: Yeah. Sorry? Education. Women graduate with college degrees at such a dramatically higher rate than men do.

Sandman: Yeah. And education, the problem with education is you're starting to see more verbal, like the reason girls are doing so much better is because education is becoming more verbal as opposed to visual.

Sandman: And a lot of these jobs, the, a lot of these manual labor jobs require visual thinking as opposed to verbal thinking and like they're pulling out, my old middle school, I just looked up the number of teachers, male versus female, and there's only two male teachers, right? Back when I was a kid, it was like 50 50.

Sandman: They also pulled out the shop class. That's gone. So they're just, they're a minute and they replaced it [00:24:00] with feminist, right? music class. You're right. So they're teaching like Black Lives Matter hymns. I'm like, wow, this is a skill that's going to help civilization continue. So I'm

Simone: also thinking actually, when I'm thinking about what would a society that's primarily male look like?

Simone: This is imperfect obviously, because women did actually play a pretty big role. In the Spartan world, but like that was a world in which to a great extent, it seemed like child care was pooled. So it was managed at scale. It wasn't really so much that like women did all the child rearing as much as.

Simone: In other societies, at least, like the kids weren't always in the home, they were often training collectively, so like I could see an all male society in which you have all the children training collectively more or less at scale, like in a really efficient manner that also creates pretty successful humans and

Sandman: I've looked at Sparta and the problem with Sparta, it was very matriarchal but what happened was It didn't last very long.

Sandman: It only lasted like a few generations compared to societies like Athens that were more [00:25:00] patriarchal. So if you look at Sparta versus Athens, it's more matriarchal versus patriarchal than anything else. Was Sparta that

Simone: matriarchal? Like women were property managers, but they weren't really, were they that involved in politics and ruling?

Sandman: I'm not 100% sure, but I know that they were involved in the economy. So that was the thing. Yeah my

Simone: understanding was like, they would stay at home and they would run the farm, but like in any modern economy. So if we're looking at like the MGTOW Sparta, it would, that would just be good, like automated property management and stuff would not be something that anyone needed to do, like in the modern age, the role that women played in Sparta.

Simone: Is not necessary at all. Yeah. So you would just more look at what we would see. Neither is the

Malcolm: role that men played. Slave manager is not a big job in today's society.

Simone: Men didn't manage the slaves. Men like trained and were like, what

Malcolm: were they training to do? Put down slave rebels.

Simone: I mean, I'm sure they can do something else.

Simone: You know, They did what the nation needed in order to gain wealth, so theoretically they [00:26:00] would train to do really awesome stuff.

Malcolm: It's a little bit more.

Sandman: They did gain wealth, but you notice in that culture, like if you look at the ruins of Athens versus the ruins of Sparta, It's there's nothing in Sparta.

Sandman: There's no great art. There's no architect, like architect. It's all not the level is not there.

Simone: They weren't so effete though. I mean, you know, they, They got s**t done. I don't know. They

Malcolm: weren't interested in art. So you see, yeah, they

Simone: weren't, they weren't girly men. I don't know what to tell you.

Malcolm: Cultural framework. So, And I love that you're so like, California tradition. Art. Disgusting. What a sign of degeneracy. Um, And this is actually genuinely something we believe, I think, puts us at odds with a lot of like, the uh, Manosphere right now, where they're like, look at the old artist. And Simone's looking at that, and she's like, I don't know.

Malcolm: That looks kind of girly. Statues. True

Simone: story. Nerds. Maybe. Anyway.

Malcolm: Anyway. I have loved this conversation. Let's do another one. People should [00:27:00] check out his YouTube. You could just look up Sandman on YouTube. Yep. And we'll have a link here. Sandman MIG towel. Yeah. And is there anything else they should check out?

Malcolm: Oh, but what about this doll? Can they buy this?

Sandman: No, this is still on, this is still on the development concept stage, so you can buy the dolls. There's actually I've been selling dolls for many years. But in terms of buying the technology, not yet.

Simone: What do they look like compared to real dolls?

Simone: Like what are we picturing

Sandman: here? You take a real doll, but you remove the head and you remove the vaginal insert and you, those things are technological, but the rest of the doll is pretty much a real doll. Oh, sweet.

Malcolm: Okay, cool. So it's

Sandman: off the shelf technology. So you're not inventing new technology.

Sandman: Go ahead. Oh, no, I was just

Malcolm: describing what you said earlier. He explained this earlier. Yeah, with the head.

Simone: Yeah. Yeah. I was just wondering, I like, I, I wasn't sure where the picture like blow up doll for bachelor parties or like real doll with

Malcolm: no, it

Sandman: would be silicone, like a steel steel frame with silicone

Malcolm: over it.

Malcolm: Yeah. Okay. Sweet. Sweet. Sweet. Yeah.

Simone: That's way better. Okay. Cool.

Malcolm: Is that what we're selling on our channel now is. [00:28:00] I love it.

Simone: I'm sorry. Real dolls are like, great. I don't, I'm just like, I, I want to know what the foundation is. These things matter to me. Cool. Yes. I

Malcolm: think there are very interesting technological innovation in terms of society right now.

Malcolm: And they change a lot of potential social structures, I think in pretty big ways that I'm really excited. And your technology is very interesting because it would. Create a completely new economy and a completely new relationship dynamic and a huge amount of social fallout from that would be very fun to observe.

Sandman: You like the chaos, right?

Malcolm: I like the way groups adapt to new things because it's interesting and I would be annoyed by the groups that just reflexively yell at you for doing something new, but. That they'd exist too, right?

Sandman: Yeah, totally. No, it's, it, the technology would basically my whole thing with the technology was it allows intimacy.

Sandman: It creates an intimacy. So say two partners are on either side of [00:29:00] the world, they can have a sexual intimate relationship without being in physical contact with each other, but still be able to, get each other off.

Simone: I like that. I'm excited. The future is here.

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Former Cabinet Minister and author Alan Johnson talks books and writing on Spybrary