Born Free Method: The Podcast You are the Church: Psychedelics Within and Without Ceremony, a Conversation with Payam
Payam walks the threshold between worlds—as Spirit Walker, Medicine Carrier, and Lecturer—where ancestral wisdom converges with contemporary science. His vocation is the orchestration of healing journeys that dissolve trauma, recalibrate the psyche, and awaken the soul’s remembrance of wholeness.
Initiated through extensive apprenticeships with visionaries such as Dr. Richard Schwartz, Dr. Gabor Maté, Dr. Mia Leijssen, and Dr. Isa Gucciardi, his formation spans Internal Family Systems, Compassionate Inquiry, existential and somatic practices, and psychedelic integration. Augmenting this with post-graduate study in trauma, contemplative neuroscience, and psychedelic-assisted therapies at institutions including the Nalanda Institute, Horizons, and Princeton University, he embodies a synthesis of rigorous scholarship and embodied mysticism.
Through international collaborations with physicians, psychiatrists, and healers, Payam curates sacred containers that weave together shamanic lineage, somatic intelligence, and evidence-based modalities—inviting participants to transmute pain into purpose, and silence into song.
This conversation is a deep exploration of medicine, ceremony, and healing—bridging psychedelics, spirituality, and tradition with questions of safety, authenticity, and integration…all of which are critical to birthwork.
* 00:05:10 - Rapé Drop-In and Origins of This Practice
Payam and Nathan began their conversation with a breathing exercise and meditation, focusing on healing and balancing energy. They then discussed the importance of rapé (“Ha-pay”), a practice that involves journeying and exploration of the mind and spirit. Nathan asked Payam about Hape’s origins and significance, expressing curiosity about its role in his work. They also discuss the importance of recognizing the masculine and feminine within all of us. Payam discussed the use of rapé, a medicine made from Mapacho, for grounding and connecting with spirits, and its application in energy work and ceremonies. He explained the energetic and spiritual significance of masculine and feminine qualities, associated with the right and left sides of the body respectively, and emphasized the importance of integrating these qualities for personal growth and healing. Nathan inquired about the practical application of these concepts during ceremonies, and Payam shared insights about warrior archetypes and energy work, highlighting the role of energy medicine in activating and discharging these archetypes.
* 00:27:00 - Holding Ceremony as Consciousness Exploration
Are hallucinations real even if they don’t fit into our physical experience of reality in a clear way? Nathan and Payam discussed the nature and purpose of ceremonies, emphasizing their role as safe spaces for exploring consciousness and the self. They highlighted the concept of the “relativization of the self” and the importance of intention and setting in creating a meaningful and safe experience. Payam shared his understanding of ceremonies as a way to connect with the wisdom of spirits and gain insights into the bigger picture, while Nathan compared the experience to exploring different facets of the self in a “playground.” They also touched on the relevance of ceremonies in understanding inner and societal polarities, suggesting that they can foster a sense of unity and shared humanity. What do we mean when we say “the world is losing it’s mind”?
* 00:38:45 - Psychedelics Can Be Healing Within the Appropriate Container and Integration
Nathan and Payam discussed the potential risks and benefits of using psychedelic substances, particularly in unstructured settings like Burning Man. Payam emphasized the importance of proper ceremony and facilitation when working with these substances, explaining how he carefully manages energy fields and participant states during his work. Nathan shared his own experiences with psychedelics, both positive and negative, and agreed with Payam that these substances can be harmful when used without proper integration and ceremony. They also touched on the idea that those in power may exploit chaos and disorder for their own benefit.
* 00:45:20 - Birth, Death, and Psychedelic Ceremony
Payam and Nathan discussed the importance of intention and respect in spiritual and medical practices, drawing parallels between childbirth and psychedelic medicine ceremonies. They explored how Western medical approaches, such as controlled clinical trials and hospital births, may contrast with traditional, more natural methods. Nathan shared an example from his fellowship experience where a university proposed a clinical trial for psilocybin that involved a controlled hospital setting, which he questioned could potentially undermine the intended therapeutic effects. Both agreed that a more supportive and respectful environment might be more beneficial for such experiences.
* 00:50:10 - Psychedelic Therapies Are Probaby Not Best Done in a Clinical Setting
Nathan and Payam discussed the parallels between clinical settings and psychedelic experiences, emphasizing the importance of creating a safe and supportive environment rather than controlling the process. Payam shared his experiences with facilitating healing from sexual trauma during ceremonies, highlighting the need for skilled facilitators who can support individuals in releasing trauma without re-traumatization. They also explored the limitations of Western medicine and its extractive nature, with Payam reflecting on his journey from a scientific background to recognizing the need for a more holistic approach to healing. Nathan shared a personal story about healing from religious disillusion, describing how reconnecting with the spiritual essence of ancient traditions helped him forgive dogmatic teaching.
* 01:04:50 - Authentic vs Commercialized Medicine Practices
Payam expressed concerns about Western institutions co-opting and corrupting Earth medicine traditions, contrasting them with authentic community-based practices where medicine carriers are elected by the community for collective healing. The discussion highlighted a fundamental distinction between profit-driven institutional approaches to psychedelics and authentic community-based medicine practices, with Payam emphasizing his commitment to avoid commercialization while acknowledging the need to sustain himself financially.
* 01:11:16 - You Don’t Need an Intercessor; You Are the Church
Payam discussed the concept of religious institutions as funnels for spiritual experiences, emphasizing the role of the intercessor and the importance of being an empty vessel for spiritual medicine. He explained that the best ceremonies involve doing nothing, allowing the spiritual process to unfold naturally. Nathan and Payam explored how this challenges traditional religious and therapeutic approaches, with Payam comparing the role of a spirit walker to that of a therapist in a psychedelic setting. They discussed the potential threats that such spiritual practices pose to established institutions and the importance of personal spiritual experience over reliance on intermediaries.
* 01:19:40 - Are All Synthetics Problematic?
Payam and Nathan discussed the use of various medicines, including synthetic drugs like MDMA and ketamine, as well as natural substances like mushrooms. Payam explained that MDMA is an analgesic and anxiolytic that can help individuals access and process hidden traumas. He emphasized the importance of working with spirit medicine before using synthetic substances, as it can prepare the individual for the insights gained from synthetic drugs. Nathan highlighted the challenge of balancing the use of medicines, whether synthetic or natural, and the need to approach them with respect and understanding rather than seeing them as good or bad.
* 01:28:05 - Rites of Passage in Modern Society
Payam discussed the distinction between “black medicines” (opioids, heroin) and “white medicines” (therapeutic drugs) and emphasized the importance of proper guidance and maturity when using psychedelic substances. He highlighted the lack of traditional rites of passage and elders in Western society, which he believes contributes to social issues among youth. When is a person old enough to “safely” use these medicines. Nathan and Payam agreed that the absence of elderhood and proper initiation processes is a significant issue facing the Western world today.
* 01:38:00 - Balancing Material and Spiritual Healing
Payam also shared his personal spiritual journey not having been raised within a religion, including his connection to ancestral wisdom and experiences with various spiritual entities. Nathan and Payam discussed the balance between material and spiritual realms, emphasizing the importance of integrating both in personal growth and medicine work. Payam shared his process for working with clients, which includes preparation, ceremony, and integration phases, often involving a team of specialists. They also touched on the potential of psychedelics in preparing for parenthood and the need for a holistic approach to healing. Nathan expressed interest in connecting with Payam for further exploration of these topics.
Contact Payam through his website.
References from the conversation:
* Start working with rapé and other (legal) sacred medicines: Four Visions or Sacred Connection
* Ram Dass (formerly Richard Alpert)
* Payam’s appearance on the Spirit Gym Podcast with Paul Chek
* Alicia Allison, doula and member of Payam’s team
Show notes can be found on Substack
Related episodes:
* Kimberly Ann Johnson: On Grieving the Loss of Sanctity in Birth
* Hamilton Souther: On the Use of Plant Medicines in Releasing Birth Trauma
This episode was sponsored by Born Free Method.
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