Sam Harris interviews Graeme Wood, an expert on jihad, about the recent attacks in Israel, the war in Gaza, and the problem of global jihadism. They discuss the complexities of comparing Hamas to ISIS, the consequences of the attack on the border wall, the veracity of extreme imagery and testimony, the motivations behind jihadist actions, understanding sympathy for jihad, sentiment towards theocracy in Iran, comparing Iran to ISIS, and the complexities of absorbing Palestinians.
Israel prioritizes dealing with Hamas first before potentially engaging in a conflict with Hezbollah, due to the complexity and risks involved in confronting Hezbollah who are backed by Iran.
The prevailing belief in Israel to destroy Hamas has led to a full-scale invasion approach, but as the reality of the cost becomes evident, there may be a shift towards alternative strategies that achieve objectives with lesser destruction.
The conflict highlights the sympathy for jihadist groups like Hamas, which exists not only within the Muslim community but also among some non-Muslims, indicating a deeper problem related to the ideology of jihad.
Deep dives
The Hamas-Hezbollah Dilemma and Potential for Wider Conflict
There is increasing concern about the potential for a wider conflict involving Hezbollah in addition to the ongoing situation with Hamas. While Israel is aware of the threat posed by Hezbollah, they prioritize dealing with Hamas first before potentially engaging in a conflict with Hezbollah. The complexity and risks involved in a confrontation with Hezbollah, who are backed by Iran, make it a more daunting prospect. Hezbollah has been carrying out smaller attacks along the border, perhaps testing Israel's response. Ultimately, the decision to engage with Hezbollah will depend on multiple factors, including the involvement and choices of Iran.
The Controversy Surrounding Different Strategies for Dealing with Gaza
There has been debate about the most effective strategy for dealing with Gaza. Some have proposed a siege or a limited invasion, aiming to isolate Hamas and prevent further aggression, while minimizing casualties. This approach would prioritize the safety of Israelis and limit harm to Palestinian civilians. However, the prevailing sentiment in Israel has been the belief that Hamas must be destroyed, leading to a full-scale invasion. As the reality of the cost becomes evident, with the potential for thousands of casualties, there may be a shift in thinking towards seeking alternative strategies that achieve Israeli objectives without the same level of destruction.
The Disturbing Sympathy for Jihadism
One of the concerning aspects of the conflict is the sympathy for jihadist groups like Hamas that exists not only within the Muslim community but also among some non-Muslims, particularly on the political left. This support goes beyond mere criticism of Israeli policy and demonstrates a deeper problem related to the ideology of jihad. These sympathies remain prevalent despite the brutal tactics and extremist ideologies employed by such groups. It is essential to recognize the broader problem of jihadism and work towards ensuring that the vast majority of Muslims reject and repudiate jihad as a destructive and dangerous ideology.
Creating a Global Repudiation of Jihadism
One of the key steps in addressing the issue of jihadism is to foster a global movement where the vast majority of Muslims worldwide repudiate jihadist ideology. This entails reconceiving jihad in a peaceful and benign manner and rejecting any sympathy for or support of violent jihadist groups. It is crucial for all of humanity, Muslims and non-Muslims alike, to recognize that jihadism is a threat to global civilization and work towards its eradication. By promoting education, dialogue, and countering extremist narratives, we can strive towards a world where the ideology of jihad holds no appeal.
The importance of discrediting the jihadist project
Discrediting the jihadist project is crucial for a tolerable future in a pluralistic world. It involves making the jihadist project look like a losing proposition and reconceiving it as unattractive as the theological excesses of the past. This is a long-term project and has historical parallels with how other religions have evolved over time.
Saudi Arabia's role in combating jihadism
Saudi Arabia has reduced its support for jihadism and extremist ideologies to a certain extent. This shift is partly due to pragmatic reasons, such as self-preservation, and the desire to be seen as a modern and cosmopolitan country. The Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, Mohammed bin Salman, has taken steps to turn off the funding for Wahhabi mosques globally, reducing the influence of extremist forms of Islam. Collaborating with Saudi Arabia in the fight against jihadism and reducing support for jihadist ideology can be a valuable strategy in combating the jihadist project.
Sam Harris speaks with Graeme Wood about the October 7th atrocities in Israel, the unfolding war in Gaza, and the ongoing problem of global jihadism.
Graeme Wood is a national correspondent for The Atlantic. He has written for The New Yorker, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, and many other publications. He was the 2014–2015 Edward R. Murrow Press Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, and he teaches in the political science department at Yale University. He is the author of The Way of the Strangers: Encounters with the Islamic State.