202 | Framework Trade-offs: What Laravel Offers JavaScript Developers

Josh Cirre joins us to discuss his transition from the JavaScript ecosystem to Laravel, revealing why PHP frameworks can offer a compelling alternative for full-stack development. We explore the "identity crisis" many frontend developers face when needing robust backend solutions, how Laravel's batteries-included approach compares to piecing together JavaScript services, and the trade-offs between serverless and traditional hosting environments. Josh also shares insights on Laravel's developer experience, front-end integration options, and his thoughts on what JavaScript frameworks could learn from Laravel's approach to abstraction and infrastructure.

Show Notes

0:00 - Intro

1:02 - Sponsor: Wix Studio

1:46 - Introduction to Laravel

2:25 - Josh's Journey from Frontend to Backend

5:40 - Building the Same Project Across Frameworks

6:32 - Josh's Breakthrough with Laravel

8:20 - Laravel's Frontend Options

10:25 - React Server Components Comparison

12:00 - Livewire and Volt

13:41 - Josh's Course on Laracasts

14:08 - Laravel's DX and Ecosystem

16:46 - MVC Structure Explained for JavaScript Developers

18:25 - Type Safety Between PHP and JavaScript

21:12 - Laravel Pain Points and Criticisms

22:40 - Laravel Team's Response to Feedback

24:50 - Laravel's Limitations and Use Cases

26:10 - Laravel's Developer Products

27:20 - Option Paralysis in Laravel

30:46 - Laravel's Driver System

33:14 - Web Dev Challenge Experience

33:38 - TanStack Start Exploration

34:50 - Server Functions in TanStack

37:38 - Infrastructure Agnostic Development

41:02 - Serverless vs. Serverful Cost Comparison

44:50 - JavaScript Framework Evolution

46:46 - Framework Ecosystems Comparison

48:25 - Picks and Plugs

Links Mentioned in the Episode

1. Laravel - PHP framework
2. TanStack Start - React meta-framework Josh created a YouTube video about
3. Livewire - Laravel's HTML-over-the-wire front-end framework
4. Inertia.js - Framework for creating single-page apps
5. Volt - Single file component system for Livewire
6. Laravel Cloud - Managed hosting solution for Laravel applications
7. Herd - Laravel's tool for setting up PHP development environments
8. Forge - Laravel's server management tool
9. Envoyer - Laravel's zero-downtime deployment tool
10. Laracasts - Where Josh has a course on Livewire
11. Josh Cirre's YouTube channel
12. HTMX - Frontend library Josh compared to Livewire
13. Web Dev Challenge with Jason Lengstorf (featuring Josh and Amy)
14. Josh Cirre's BlueSky account (@joshcirre)
15. Amy's BlueSky account
16. Brad's BlueSky account

Additional Resources

1. Laravel Documentation
2. Svelte's new starter kit (mentioned as a good example)
3. Nightwatch - Latest product from Laravel
4. Laravel Vapor - Serverless deployment platform for Laravel
5. Theo's Laravel exploration (discussed in the criticism section)
6. Laravel Breeze
7. Laravel Jetstream
8. Laravel Fortify (authentication package mentioned)
9. Adonis.js (JavaScript framework compared to Laravel)
10. Anker USB powered hub (Josh's pick)
11. Grether's Sugar Free Black Currant Pastilles (Josh's pick)
12. JBL Portable Speaker (Amy's pick)